GoldFinger1969

Jeff Garrett Commentaries: They're almost 10 years old and pretty short, but they are online and right here at this site. Until HA puts out an online version of Roger's book or at least the Commentary sections, this is a nice addition to the HA commentaries on their auction site (which I also have in PDF form, if anybody wants it). https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2685/Saint-Gaudens-Double-Eagles-1907-1909-S/

To me, this means simply that aside from the South (cotton, agriculture) there wasn't that much international trade up to about 1870. So the need for gold coins wasn't as high as lower-valued silver coins. You don't read too much about Liberty Double Eagles being bagged and shipped overseas as you did with Saints decades later. Domestically, I guess $1 silver coins met most people's needs, as you pointed out, few people needed a $20 or even $10 gold (or silver, if you could hold it) coin.

Sotheby's Link: https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman

I'm surprised they didn't keep keep records off the floor level, just to be safe. Or digitalize them and scan them before Sandy. Too bad....Bauman is deceased, Akers too, probably nobody else can provide information on the 1983 Hoard.

What was the original source, Auction Catalogs ? I've never read about any hoard -- other than this actor's little stash -- for the MCMVII High Relief. You read all the time about the hoards from the 1950's and 1960's and the famous El Salvador 1983 MTB Hoard. BTW, great job in giving details on the 1983 MTB in the book/footnotes. Too bad their records got destroyed by flooding.

I didn't see any hoards mentioned in the MCMVII HR chapter, Roger, after doing a quickie scan. I saw Menjou's name mentioned for Kosoff's auction but that was it. Do you have a page # ?

I must have forgotten about them. Surprising, since that was such a unique coin. I'll re-read that section tonight, thanks Roger. I went through the book a few weeks ago and wrote down the hoard findings for every type as a resource piece. Must have started with the 1908's instead of the MCMVII pairs.

What was considered in the book ?

If you contact him again, ask him when they will have an App like HA.

It went for $1,950 (about $2,200 w/bp). Not much of a variety premium, if any.

Well, the answer was right here....on the NGC Boards !! "The actor Adolphe Menjou had a particular penchant for the coin; he accumulated 250 pieces before his hoard was dispersed in the 1970s." https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/saint-gaudens-20-1907-1933-pscid-70

Roger, in your research did you ever hear of any mini-hoard of MCMVII High Reliefs ? I've never read about one....you would think with all the "hoarding" of the 1907 HR coins as they arrived to great expectations that maybe some wealthy individual in Boston, NY, or Philly would have had 10-20 of the coins and they got passed down over time. But maybe not........

Keep an eye out for more 1922 DDR's, Ross.....when funds are plentiful, I would definitely have interest. Loved your analysis and the back-and-forth with Roger on that year.

Ross, you have a DDR -- what's the grade ?

Well, truthfully there's not much of a difference in total coin numbers -- about 10% -- but even if the original figure were alot lower the PERCEPTION of rarity would be different from the ACTUAL rarity. I mean....if the mintage was said to be 100....and dealers themselves know there are THOUSANDS for sure as they each have had access to dozens at any moment in time.....the price might be a bit higher and more volatile but I doubt it would be as high as the Fab Five (1929-32 Saints) each of which at one time had about 100 coins, give-or-take. Eventually, a pretty accurate census take would be established....and price and supply would stabilize at a fair value. Remember, the population census for the 1903-O Morgan Silver Dollar was ultra-rare in 1962 before the Treasury Hoard hit....but the price plummeted even thoughthe "official" census showed it to be rare. Dealers were getting hit from everywhere so prices fell.

MCMVII High Relief Mintage: I'm surprised at how many web sites, catalogs, articles, etc....all use the 11,250 number for the mintage of the MCMVII High Relief. As the book shows, the correct figure was 12,367. And I believe that figure (12,367) was circulated BEFORE the publication of the book (2018) so I am surprised it remains uncorrected on still-frequented websites (I understand old articles/catalogs/etc. not going back and changing numbers after the fact). As an example, PCGS Coin Facts still uses 11,250. Not sure why there is the 1,117 numerical discrepancy and why it remains uncorrected on popular websites.

It's a pretty non-descript coin. I think an MCMVII Ultra High Relief is a much better investment AND a better-looking coin. There's always the possibility that the Switt-Langbord coins come out. Pretty sure no more 1907 UHR's out there.

As a general rule, if a silver coin hasn't developed milk spots or "carbon spots" within 5-10 years of being encaspulated, it probably won't happen. My understanding is that very few slabbed silver or gold coins from the 1980's or 1990's have developed problems years after the fact.

An MS65-CAC will have to have more points than a MS65 but less than an MS66 -- I would think.

Nope, I asked that too. No way to check prior sending of a coin and failure to CAC.

Agreed....and those cards have to be mostly moderns (post-1980) as I would suspect classic cards were already graded.

Thanks WC, very informative. I was under the impression that the actual cost per coin was much lower -- basically, around $15-$20 for the slab itself and maybe the same amount to grade. Clearly, it's alot more. Maybe dealers sending in hundreds weekly get a volume discount but that wouldn't apply to individuals.

I'm not surprised, as the old 80-20 Rule might apply and it might even be 90-10: 90% of the value from 10% of the coins/consignments. You can probably quantify this from all the weekly auctions they have as the numbers range from a few hundred to a few thousand. While lots of lower-priced stuff adds up, they are much more labor and time-intensive. I myself never did anything other than Ebay up to about 2 years ago. I suspect many are learning about HA and GC and maybe even other sites. It's fun...it's easy....saves time....you can easily justify the higher prices/commissions if you find the exact coin that in the past would have required half a dozen trips to the LCS's or Coin Shows.

Rarity Rankings: I thought I had posted this before, but I guess not. Anyway, it now covers 3 decades and nearly 80 years. Below you can see the Top 15 coins from Ultra-Rare to Semi-Rare based on various rankings. The 1940's/1950's was before the wave of hoards hit from Europe and South/Central America and based on dealers guestimates. The 2000's was based on the Akers/Ambio Gold book rankings. The 2020's rankings are based on Roger's book. I mentioned before how the 1921 had moved less over the decades than other coins, you can see that below. It moves from 4th to 3rd to 6th. Other coins move up or down alot more. Rarity Rankings, 1940's/1950's: ULTRA-RARE….1924-S, 1926-D, 1926-S SUPER-RARE….1921, 1927-S, 1931-D RARE……………1925-D, 1927-D, 1930-S SEMI-RARE……1922-S, 1929, 1931, 1920-S, 1908-S, 1924-D Rarity Rankings, 2000’s: ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1921 SUPER-RARE……1920-S, 1931, 1932 RARE……………..1931-D, 1927-S, 1926-D SEMI-RARE………1929, 1908-S, 1925-S, 1925-D, 1909-D, 1924-S Rarity Rankings, 2020’s: ULTRA-RARE……1927-D, 1930-S, 1932 SUPER-RARE….....1931, 1931-D, 1921 RARE………………1920-S, 1927-S, 1929 SEMI-RARE………1926-D, 1925-D, 1924-S, 1909-D, 1924-D, 1908-S NOTE: OBVIOUSLY, THE 1933 WAS NOT INCLUDED IN THESE RANKINGS

Not a key date, but you can see that the price of the National Park Foundation "coins" have risen 50-100% in the last few months or year or so as a cheaper alternative to the Real Thing (Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles). 1 ounce silver coins based on ASG's patterns that sold for $50-$80 are now going for $125-$175. Gold coins are selling in the low-$2K range and some of the other ones I see asks for over $3,000. A 5-oz. Winged Liberty went for over $300 a few weeks ago when other 5-ounce silvers are usually around $175 - $250, tops.