GoldFinger1969

I was just going by what other graders have estimated, Mark. And you are right, NGC did grade the Langbord Ten a while back. I think the twin MS-65's and the MS-66 are much nicer than this coin. Have to compare it to the other 6 coins graded NS-64 Probably not, but they could just talk about the grading process if there was lots of talk about the grade. Would they ? Probably not, as there is no upside. But that's how loss of reputation can start: you overgrade and don't even attempt to justify the grade.

QA, the consensus is that the grade should be closer to MS-63. I would want to hear from PCGS if they "graded on a curve" because it's the sole 1933 Saint. I guess the question is: the gash is a big negative, if the rest of the coin is "clean" with good luster, then you can maybe say it makes up for it on other aesthetics.

It would be very instructive if someone from PCGS were to let us know WHY/HOW the coin graded MS-65.

It is a darn good pillow, my parents say.

I'm not sure an EXACT date was ever given, Bob.

The 1933 Saint is graded MS-65 CAC.

The 1933 Saint-Gaudens went for above the forecasted range -- and smashed the old record. The 2 stamps went for below the estimates. Another confirmation that coins and numismatics have legs and stamps are really hurting, IMO.

How did a bronze penny get created ?

You blew it, Kurt.....should have said loudly "Hey, it's Ginger Grant from GILLIGANS ISLAND !!" and pointed towards the door....grabbed the coin....and RAN !!

The OBSESSION of the government towards these coins borders on the absurd. Wished they showed as much concern for financial and monetary integrity when Russian cyberwarriors or Chinese counterfeiters were polluting our shores. And that 1996 sting operation at the Waldorf was ridiculous. It's a coin, for crissakes, not a plutonium trigger for a bomb.

From DWLange on another thread: The use of gold coins as a general circulating currency ended after 1861 in most of the nation. It continued in the West as late as 1917, until the Treasury's restrictions on its distribution forced even westerners to accept paper money. As other Americans had discovered decades earlier, paper is a lot easier to carry around than gold. After about 1920 gold coins could be obtained upon request, but individuals and most businesses wanted little to do with them, except as special gifts at births, graduations, Christmas/Hanukah, etc. By the late 1920s they became more difficult to obtain at face value, as they were already bringing over that for the export market.

Mostly boilerplate and a rehashing, but an article on the forthcoming sale from R.W. Julian: https://www.coinagemag.com/1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle-for-sale/ DWLange, I copied-and-pasted your last post onto the Roger Burdette Saint Book thread so we could respond to it there -- I felt it had some good information, and didn't want anybody to be forced to respond here. Hope that is OK with you.

No, that I get, Kurt. I'm saying that if someone feared a bank collapse and/or didn't trust the government, I would think they'd want the actual metal, not a piece of paper that says you can exchange it for gold. There were lots of people in the pre-FDIC days who didn't trust banks. I know they may have preferred to transact daily in paper....but if they had any savings squirreled away, I would think they'd want the actual metal (coins) and not a gold certificate. Lots of distrust of the federal government and Eastern bankers by small towns, agrarian communities, etc. Reminds me a bit of quasi-gold bugs who will buy paper gold like ETFs, futures, or mining stocks in liu of the actual metal.

Gold certificates I have heard of and seen, what is/was a "gold note" ?

I knew that guy was a cyber creature from the way he played McEnroe and Connors !!

If you wanted the security of gold, I find it hard to believe you'd want a certificate entitling you to gold if you present the piece of paper. Gold certificates were better than regular bills but not as good as the actual metal or coin.

Gotcha...no it's clear....I just conflated all the different forms of gold. Are the rest of my numbers and interpretations from your book correct ? If $18 MM or so in gold coin was held by the public....is it reasonable to assume that hundreds of thousands of DEs (a few million dollars of that total) were held by American citizens ? Or do you think that the denomination skew was to the smaller coins almost exclusively ? I realize this is probably just a guess as no surveys or data really exists.

Americans Holding Gold Coins in the 1930's, including DE's (continued from another thread): VKURT: This idea that people used gold coins regularly in commerce is a myth. I think books like Roger's disabuse that notion. I do think many more people had a few coins (including DE's) salted away because of mistrust in banks. It was much more than those that used DE's or collected them....but still a very small % of the U.S. population, agreed. Roger's sources and numbers are detailed (and somewhat confusing because the data isn't definitive) but it appears that about $7 MM in gold coins was turned in by American citizens from 1934-41, then another $250K per year into the 1950's for a grand total just over $9 MM (another $12.5 MM came back into the country from overseas). The government estimated just over $300 MM in gold coin in circulation in 1933 but $279 MM lost/in collections/exported with no records. $25.6 MM came from banks by December 1933 and it was estimated that $18 MM came from American citizens. That probably included tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of DE's unless you think the skew was to even smaller denominations. While Americans were allowed to hold $100 in coins, the fine print was lost on many and most probably thought they had to turn in everything or spend it quickly. It's tough to get detailed numbers on American gold holdings by citizens in the 1930's, let alone the denominations. We can only guestimate. Back then, you couldn't survey people anonymously and NOBODY wanted to tell a government questioner or pollster or numismatist how much and what kind of gold coins they had hidden underneath a mattress or in their glass trophy case.

Guys, I am going to copy my post above in the RWB Saints Book thread so we don't go back-and-forth for days on this topic and run into the actual Sotheby's auction next week. https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/topic/420099-roger-burdettes-saint-gaudens-double-eagles-book/page/39/#comments Let's keep this thread clear for stuff specific to 1933 Saints and the upcoming auction.

I think books like Roger's disabuse that notion. I do think many more people had a few coins (including DE's) salted away because of mistrust in banks. It was much more than those that used DE's or collected them....but still a very small % of the U.S. population, agreed. Roger's sources and numbers are detailed (and somewhat confusing because the data isn't definitive) but it appears that about $7 MM in gold coins was turned in by American citizens from 1934-41, then another $250K per year into the 1950's for a grand total just over $9 MM (another $12.5 MM came back into the country from overseas). The government estimated just over $300 MM in gold coin in circulation in 1933 but $279 MM lost/in collections/exported with no records. $25.6 MM came from banks by December 1933 and it was estimated that $18 MM came from American citizens. That probably included tens of thousands -- maybe hundreds of thousands -- of DE's unless you think the skew was to even smaller denominations. While Americans were allowed to hold $100 in coins, the fine print was lost on many and most probably thought they had to turn in everything or spend it quickly. It's tough to get detailed numbers on American gold holdings by citizens in the 1930's, let alone the denominations. We can only guestimate. Back then, you couldn't survey people anonymously and NOBODY wanted to tell a government questioner or pollster or numismatist how much and what kind of gold coins they had hidden underneath a mattress or in their glass trophy case.

But they probably had smaller denomination gold coins.

Those gashes are very noticeable....but they are NOT "rub" -- they're gashes/dents/strikes. You wonder if a few 1933's or other Saints were loose in a bag and this 1933 got the worst of it.

Start Bidding...... https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/three-treasures-collected-by-stuart-weitzman

Saint Activity: Seeing more people getting involved in bidding...higher bids...more bids. A 1923-D MS-66+CAC is at $5,900 (13 bids) with a week to go over on GC.

That we OWN -- or just wish we had ?