GoldFinger1969

Maybe it had lots of bagmarks in less-noticeable areas which graders today are more forgiving of.

Before the TPGs.....did UNC refer to what we would call MS-65 or MS-63 quality ? I think it's 63 but don't quote me.

Not only that, WC, but you had VERY FEW coins sell for anywhere near that much to the best of my recollection. A few of the Saints had traded for as high as $2,000 in the 1950's and maybe the Liberty Nickel and a few other pure numismatic key dates traded at that level -- but that's about all I can think of (veterans, chime in with any other expensive coins circa 1960). I think the MCMVII UHR, 1927-D (once it became clear hoards overseas did not exist), and the 1933 (confiscated in the late-1940's) sold for anywhere near $1,500 - $2,000 OTTOMH. Maybe a Superb Gem quality 1924 or 1925 mintmarked Saint, also. But you're talking about prices paid by millionaire collectors, when being a millionaire was really being rich.

Good catch...yup, that would do it....price has held I guess for low 5-figures in 69/70 condition though nowhere near the $86,000 record price for some additional stuff like 1st Strike, etc and down from the $25,000 range of a few years ago. Once the demand for registry sets by heavy-hitters abated, the price fell.

Heavily influenced by "secret" stockpiles -- esp. Russian -- and electrification of the auto industry. Proceed with caution.

Wow, interesting....would you mind indicating what this (modern) coin is ?

I love this series, my only complaint is I've had to purchase the silver coins and not the gold ones. Glad to find others like it as well (I kind of suspected some did, because the bidding on these coins can get pretty high ). You have a bunch of High Relief and Ultra High Relief coins/commemoratives that mimic the classic obverse of the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles. They've added the Indian Liberty w/headdress that was used on patterns as well as the Barber-like coins posted above.

I wonder if these are NEW coins -- new mini-hoards, even if individual coins -- or if they were already included in the population data. I guess if they are certified from a while back -- as opposed to certified recently -- they were probably already in the population census, whether graded by the U.S. or European affiliates of NGC and PCGS.

I have famed dealer B. Max Mehl's company price list a year or so after his passing, 1958 I believe........the 1903-O is listed as Rare and the prices are $95 VF and $500 UNC. The 1904-O doesn't have "rare" in the line item but it's $15 VF and $75 UNC.

When you think about it, it's fascinating: a specially made coin/pattern for a key trading partner. I'm surprised that even in the 1940's the Saudis didn't "trust" the U.S. dollar. It's not like it was some Austro-Hungarian or German currency which had been subject to astronomical moves down and hyperinflation. I never knew about this coin until Roger posted about it.

German auction house has Saints, Double Eagles, and other gold coins. Probably a good source for the stream of coins coming in from Europe: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/jeff-garrett-us-gold-coins-coming-home/ Here's the catalog, check out the Saints on P. 156 (Liberty's and other coins are before that): https://issuu.com/kuenkercoins/docs/kuenker340_katalog?utm_source=coinweek Some rare Saints, but not in high mint state condition. Many in AU. Some of the coins are raw, some NGC certified. Maybe DLange can chime in here, but I believe that these were recent raw coins graded by NGC's European offices.

Thanks, I don't keep the book at my desk...can't risk spilling coffee or drinks on it.

Tom, as far as silver dollars....are you looking at graded or non-graded coins ? Are you looking at coins with a bit of numismatic value (graded) or largely numismatic (graded and rare) ? Any interest in gold coins (graded/non-graded) ? Even if you haven't bought any, let us know what you are looking at or what tickles your fancy. We can recommend threads, websites, auctions sites, and maybe some specific coins if you tell us what you like and/or your immediate budget (no need to buy everything right away).

The 1903-0 was quoted at $1,500 or so for what we would call today MS65. Maybe that was an "offer" to sell and maybe if you were a dealer you were buying it from the public at $500 or $750 or whatever so the "price" depended on who was buying and/or selling. But it was much much more than most common or even scarce Morgans. And it got poleaxed by the late-1962 release. I don't think the 1903-O has completly roundtripped in price and gained back all the losses, I'll have to check the price for an MS-65.

Excellent article for beginners and intermediate collectors and Morgan fans: https://coinweek.com/coins/coin-profiles/us-coins-coin-profiles/united-states-1904-o-morgan-silver-dollar/ The 1903-O actually took the bigger hit from the 1962 Treasury Hoard, but the 1904-O was also collateral damage.

Roger, one of these gets sold by Stacks in a couple of weeks: https://coinweek.com/world-coins/an-american-and-saudi-arabian-gold-coin-featured-in-stacks-bowers-june-world-coin-auction/

Steve Roach is a good reporter, I think this was just filling space, as they call it in the trade. Nonetheless....it is another article confirming that money is filtering into ALL AREAS of the coin hobby. You have alot of "dumb money" and stimulus checks flowing into our little niche sector. I posted before that lower-graded $500 and $1,000 bills were getting lots of bids. This makes sense, people just want to own one and aren't as fussy about geting one in Mint State, particularly when the bill jumps in price 3-5 fold. Thanks for posting the article, Sharann.

How many of those 117 million SURVIVE to this day ? Also, I suspect it was possible that French Roosters circulated alot more than American Double Eagles (Liberty's, Saints). Still surprising that NO grade higher than MS-67 has been given out. You would expect a few MS68's...69's tougher unless preserved properly by collectors over the decades. I think aside from the Proofs/UHRs that no Saints except one graded MS-69 prior to the Wells Fargo Hoard. That jumped the total by 10. 20 francs was the Rooster denomination ? Any links to these gold hoards ? France was the home to numerous hoards of U.S. gold coins, you'd think they'd find some of theirs, too !

Were you able to die match for the book with access to better photos, Roger ? You have pics of all the coins in the 1933 chapter.

It clearly wasn't definitive that the 1933's would be the last Saints struck at the time. They could have been....could have been an interruption before resuming (like WW I)....or maybe we just strike fewer DEs each year. Certainly, as the Mint was striking them -- even after April 12th -- the expectation was probably that they all would be used at some point and/or that some had already been released or obtained. Without a definitive statement from the Mint -- "the coins will NOT be released until we get authorization from the Secretary or President" -- the public and even astute coin collectors were probably just guessing. And let's face it, in 1931 and 1932 and into 1933....most Americans were probably just worrying about how to survive, not about the release or non-release of gold coins. I doubt it was even covered extensively in BARRON'S or The Wall Street Journal or NY Times.

Dave, wasn't there a growing expectation that "something" was going to happen with gold in 1931 and 1932 -- and most people knew "something" meant no more gold coins struck or limits on ownership (I don't think many people thought an outright ban was coming) ? That was one reason why so many people direct-ordered the 1932 Saints (as Roger showed the purchase order list in his book). My understanding was that by 1931 the government was increasing the tracking of gold shipments overseas and any person following gold developments here and with other countries (i.e, the U.K.) knew or should have known that change was a foot. The election of FDR should have been the ringing of the bell. And there were newspaper reports -- which admittedly didn't have the impact today of 24/7 cable TV and social media -- in late-1932 and early-1933 that the incoming FDR administration (taking office in March 1933, not January 1933) was contemplating changes in gold. I would say this makes sense. We don't know with 100% certainty, but it is probably very likely. I still think the mixing of 1933's with 1932 Saints was also a chance to grab some. And I still believe that McCann or anybody else at the Philly Mint may have had an "understanding" with higher-ups to be allowed to get a few 1933's after the April 12th deadline to exchange coins. The higher-ups were always helping themselves to perks, why would a supervisor not tell a close friend at the Mint that if they were short $100 for 5 Double Eagles in March 1933 that they could get them anytime before they got melted, no problem (assuming they used the $100 to buy 5 other Saints of a different year) ? Who would know ? Who would care ? The 1907 High Reliefs popped 50-75% and most probably thought the 1933's would appreciate that amount, if that. They were ordinary coins and who knew if they'd be the last ones struck -- maybe coinage would resume like after WW I. Nobody foresaw the coins being worth $1,000 or more a few years later. The value of the 1933's was probably THE REASON why the Secret Service/Treasury/Mint wanted them back -- coins that they had worth $20 each were now being sold by FDR opponents and gold bootleggers for 4-figures. In the 1930's when they were worth a few hundred (or less), nobody cared. And don't get me started on the whole bag of 1928 Saints getting swiped from the Philly vault. An outright theft they couldn't figure out, but a few dozen coins circulating among coin collectors and dealers they put a hold on fighting Nazis to worry about.

I'm getting 1158x827. It's definitely bigger than any other pics I have.

What about a "tracker" that lets you see the various stages from Delivery Accepted to Coins Mailed Back ? A 5 or 6 or 7 bar indicator that progresses from left-to-right. Very simple. Very easy to construct on the website and have updated. UPS, USPS, FedX, Amazon, etc. -- they all have it. Not sure why NGC and/or PCGS don't have this feature.

Low mintage can be relative or absolute. The 1908-S Saint-Gaudens has a mintage of 22,000 which is 1% or less of some of the other coins from the 1920's minted in the millions.

The resolution is better but the lighting looks "fake" -- so while the dings and gashes are visible, it's tough to tell how many bagmarks and other blemishes are on the fields and devices that aren't being shown. This looks like a photo you'd use to give to an artist to paint the coin. I do see a line across Liberty's left arm and another one on her right-most hair strand. The coin APPEARS to otherwise have clean fields and nice devices but I want to see it in natural lighting. Hopefully, we get real-life pics of the coin as we approach the auction in 1 month.