Coin grading PSA 1 1

[dprince1138]

For those who may not be well versed in grading, it would be very much worth the time and effort to research grading before making any sort of purchase.  I am saying this as I had reviewed a number of coins on etsy today and the seller seems to be overgrading his coins. 

A value of a coin increases dramatically at about XF\AU grading.

All of the seller's coins seem to be at least one grade too high.   In the attached example, the seller is grading his coin XF\AU.  That is a very high grading.  Even though the coin is in a plastic cover holder I would consider it a grade of F or VF at the very most.

However, while the coin is placed in plastic, I believe that the primary features can be seen.

The high detail facial features seem to be worn.

"Liberty" does not seem to be crisp. 

The leaf stems, kernels and grain on the reverse seem to be worn.

Luster seems to be lacking.

Also, I have posted an example of a coin that I had rated as XF. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by dprince1138

[EagleRJO]

Completely forget about buying raw coins on Etsy, which is even worse that eBay in terms of counterfeits and misattributed varieties and errors.  And on both sites virtually every raw coin is over-graded by at least one adjectival grade, and sometimes two.

The only exceptions I have found are reputable dealers that also have an eBay Store.  But then you often can get a better price just going directly to the dealers regular website if they list the same coin there.

So for me Etsy is completely a no-go, and eBay has become mostly  just another slabbed coin auction site.  That is unless I see a raw coin I am having trouble finding at a good price, and feel like spending considerable time authenticating and grading the coin properly, which is not completely risk free, to then have a reasonable offer likely turned down.

[dprince1138]

The advantage that I have seen on etsy, is that many sellers do not seem to know about dies, rarity ratings and mint numbers.  That is generally what I am doing, trying to find coins that are undervalued.

[cobymordet]

Wait. . . um. . . Ebay and Etsy aren't reputable sellers of the numismatic variety?  but this seller has so much knowledge. . .   Look at all the in-depth research and directional arrows!  This seller is selling a GOLD MINE for only $6.99 and FREE SHIPPING! OMG!!!!!

E-Bay has all the cool kids

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by cobymordet

[cobymordet]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:07 AM, dprince1138 said:

The advantage that I have seen on etsy, is that many sellers do not seem to know about dies, rarity ratings and mint numbers.  That is generally what I am doing, trying to find coins that are undervalued.

Nice D, way to take advantage of the "little guy" trying to make a buck on less knowledgeable victims. . .wait that sounds familiar to me. . .

PS: emojis are so aughts.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:23 AM, dprince1138 said:

In the attached example, the seller is grading his coin XF\AU.  That is a very high grading.

...

On 11/1/2023 at 1:07 AM, dprince1138 said:

That is generally what I am doing, trying to find coins that are undervalued.

What was that coin listed for and why did you think it was undervalued, if even legit, as it's obviously significantly overgraded.

[cobymordet]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:53 AM, cobymordet said:

Nice D, way to take advantage of the "little guy" trying to make a buck on less knowledgeable victims. . .wait that sounds familiar to me. . .

Full disclosure, I do it too.  The down side is the coin cleaning.  If they would only try to learn as hard as they try to find non-existent errors. . .

Edited November 1, 2023 by cobymordet
can't spoke englash rite

[dprince1138]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:57 AM, EagleRJO said:

What was that coin listed for and why did you think it was undervalued, if even legit, as it's obviously significantly overgraded.

The listed price was $32, which is fair for the actual grade, but, I saw what seems to be an attribute for the die FS-301, F-105.  It has the correct shape and location.  I thought that it was worth a gamble.  However, an 1890 seated liberty coin at AU-50 is worth 3 times that value, so someone could think "wow, that is a steal!!" or think they can make a buck.

Also, as you mentioned, there can be the potential for a counterfeit.

Edited November 1, 2023 by dprince1138

[powermad5000]

You're not dealing with anything most of us have been dealing with for years and years. Most sellers try to overgrade their coins to make an extra buck on the sale. Even table dealers at coin shows have been known to do this. This is why it is important for those entering the hobby to get the basics of grading down pat and for everyone to consistently keep up on their skills. Mostly this hobby is not an investment opportunity, and many will never make any money through collecting. I would say most people spend more money than they will ever make by collecting coins. While it does occasionally happen, it is not the norm. I can only imagine what it is like for those who are into competitive registry sets (I am not a registry collector), because I am starting to run into the problem trying to complete my Franklin set. It is at the point where I cannot find suitable raw coins to fill the last holes in the set which to this point was built by 95% raw coins I sent for grading.

Counterfeits have always been a problem ever since I started collecting. Fast forward to now, though, and it has grown a ton since I started. Nowadays, you have to thoroughly check every purchase including slabs.

[dprince1138]

Of course.  I was rather astounded at the level of misgrading.  Also, I primarily look for dies with rarity ratings above 2.   If I can get a good sale for every 5th purchase, then I consider that I am doing well.  I have always liked coins.  If a coin does not sell, then I still have a decent little collection.

Edited November 1, 2023 by dprince1138

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:39 AM, dprince1138 said:

The listed price was $32, which is fair for the actual grade, but, I saw what seems to be an attribute for the die FS-301, F-105.  It has the correct shape and location.  I thought that it was worth a gamble.  However, an 1890 seated liberty coin at AU-50 is worth 3 times that value, so someone could think "wow, that is a steal!!" or think they can make a buck.

Also, as you mentioned, there can be the potential for a counterfeit.

What references, die variety books and procedures are you using to authenticate them?  And I doubt you could even see the die indicators given the condition of most of the coins and the usual poor photos.  Even then a layperson can be easily fooled by some of the counterfeits.

And with that coin it would need to be submitted to a TPG for attribution in order to reasonably add any collector value, and in such a poor condition you would likely spend more on the submittal than it would be worth in the end.  That's the reality of the Etsy coins, and most of the ones on ebay.

Edited November 1, 2023 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:24 PM, EagleRJO said:

What references, die variety books and procedures are you using to authenticate them?  And I doubt you could even see the die indicators given the condition of most the coins and the usual poor photos.  Even then a layperson can be easily fooled by some of the counterfeits.

And with that coin it would need to be submitted to a TPG for attribution in order to add any collector value, and in such a poor condition you would likely spend more on the submittal that it would be worth in the end.  That's the reality of the Etsy coins, and most of the ones on ebay.

I am not sure what dprince is doing ? From the bits and pieces I have heard him talking about it sounds like he looks for odd die characteristics on cheap old coins. Then resells them ungraded with his higher priced evaluation.

Am I close on this guess dprince1138  ? 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2023 at 7:32 PM, J P M said:

... it sounds like he looks for odd die characteristics on cheap old coins. Then resells them ungraded with his higher priced evaluation.

oh boy, hopefully not another one of those that just kicks the counterfeit and misattributed coin cans down the road fleecing some on the way.  

Edited November 1, 2023 by EagleRJO

[dprince1138]

 

O-112, although, only R1.

[dprince1138]

Very Small S, Type 2, No drapes, WB-003, R3

 

[dprince1138]

Returning this hijacked thread to the original purpose of presenting evidence to those with little experience to learn about gradings.

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2023 at 6:22 PM, dprince1138 said:

Of course.  I was rather astounded at the level of misgrading.  Also, I primarily look for dies with rarity ratings above 2.   If I can get a good sale for every 5th purchase, then I consider that I am doing well.  I have always liked coins.  If a coin does not sell, then I still have a decent little collection.

Never be astounded by misgrading. It has been around as long as coin collecting has been. The practice you are engaging in is considered ethically shady. 

[Coinbuf]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:36 PM, EagleRJO said:

oh boy, hopefully not another one of those that just kicks the counterfeit and misattributed coin cans down the road fleecing some on the way.  

Nailed it!  And trying to cover his tracks with this bogus "PSA" nonsense.

[dprince1138]

"Very Small S, Type 2, No drapes, WB-003, R3"

It seems that I had mistyped the die category.  It should have been WB-13.

[dprince1138]

OT:

At a garage sale, a family is seling a small number of coins for $20. In the group of coins is a 1955 double die wheat penny.

Would you A:  Tell the family what they have and should sell the penny for $2,000

or B: Purchase the coins for $10.

At a gun show, a person is selling what he believes is a discolored luger for $100, but what he has is a failed production chrome version, of which there are only 5.

Would you A:  Tell the seller what the item is and should sell it for $5,000.

or B: Purchase the luger for $100.

At a car show, a person is selling a transmission that he found in his garage for $200, but it is a 1969 M-22 rock crusher.

Would you A: Tell the seller what he has and to sell it for $3,000.

or B: Purchase the transmission for $200.

If anyone selected A, then they are lying.

Edited November 2, 2023 by dprince1138

[Sandon]

  

On 11/1/2023 at 9:12 PM, dprince1138 said:

"Very Small S, Type 2, No drapes, WB-003, R3"

It seems that I had mistyped the die category.  It should have been WB-13.

   The generally used terminology is "no drapery", which means no drapery hanging from Liberty's elbow, which in this case would have been caused by an overpolished die, unlike some Seated half dollars dated 1839 and Seated half dimes, dimes, and quarters dated 1838, 1839, and some 1840s, which featured a different design. You can, in fact see the drapery from the elbow in the abrasively "cleaned" 1877-S Seated half dollar whose photos are posted above, though weakly. The WB-13, shown in the following photos from PCGS Coinfacts at https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1877-s-50c-wb-13-type-2-very-small/572255, shows no sign of the drapery and clearly had a different reverse than the posted coin. On the posted coin, the mintmark slants noticeably to the right, while on the WB-13 it is upright and farther to the left. The posted coin isn't a WB-13.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Sandon

[dprince1138]

Returning this hijacked thread to the original purpose of presenting evidence to those with little experience to learn about gradings

[Sandon]

   With regard to purchasing coins that are more valuable than the seller thought them to be due to the seller's lack of knowledge or attention, I have no qualms about doing so when the seller is a coin dealer or holds him or herself out to be knowledgeable about coins. This is known as "cherrypicking".  If the seller is someone who makes no claims about having knowledge about coins but has coins and wants me to make an offer for them, I pay a fair at least wholesale price, or if, as is usually the case, I have no interest in acquiring the coins, I inform the person what fair prices would be and who would be likely to pay them. 

    In the first example above--the garage sale where the apparently unknowledgeable sellers have a 1955 doubled die cent included in a lot of coins for $20--I would, believe it or not, inform the sellers that they have a rare coin worth substantially more money and offer a fair price.  In the other cases, where the person is dealing at a trade show and should have had sufficient knowledge to be a dealer in those goods, I would remain silent and pay the asking price.

[Hoghead515]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:29 PM, dprince1138 said:

OT:

At a garage sale, a family is seling a small number of coins for $20. In the group of coins is a 1955 double die wheat penny.

Would you A:  Tell the family what they have and should sell the penny for $2,000

or B: Purchase the coins for $10.

At a gun show, a person is selling what he believes is a discolored luger for $100, but what he has is a failed production chrome version, of which there are only 5.

Would you A:  Tell the seller what the item is and should sell it for $5,000.

or B: Purchase the luger for $100.

At a car show, a person is selling a transmission that he found in his garage for $200, but it is a 1969 M-22 rock crusher.

Would you A: Tell the seller what he has and to sell it for $3,000.

or B: Purchase the transmission for $200.

If anyone selected A, then they are lying.

I would do the right thing. I was raised better than that. I selected A and no Im not lying. Im not a crook. Believe it or not theres still honest people out there. I have a concience. Thats probably why Im poor right now and dont have hardly nothing but I can sleep better at night. Id rather not have nothing if thats how I had to get it.  I despise people who take advantage of people. Id rather help them as crook them.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Hoghead515

[Mike Meenderink]

I have personally informed eBay sellers of rare varieties or errors that were about to be "stolen" by savvy online buyers. For example I came across an obvious 1918/7 D Buffalo Nickel in a "Lot" of 15 Buffalos. After 2 hrs of confirming the variety/ overdate I contacted the seller with my research results. The auction for his coins was 4 hours till end and the bid was $68.00. The coin would be worth thousands graded. The seller agreed and removed the coin. Several months later they contacted me to say thank you and the coin graded 1918/7  F15 FS-101 overdate   Value 2k+. The owner said if they would have known that they would have never tried to sell it.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Mike Meenderink

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2023 at 10:43 PM, Sandon said:

I have no qualms about doing so when the seller is a coin dealer or holds him or herself out to be knowledgeable about coins. This is known as "cherrypicking"

I generally agree with someone selling at a trade show or holding themselves out as a coin dealer or knowledgeable about coins.

However, some of the people on sites like ebay are just selling coins for older relatives just looking to get rid of some left over coins that are not collectors or internet savy, which I have encounteted.  I don't think older people should be taken advantage of, so I sometimes check if they sell all kinds of things.

But I would take a slightly different approach at the garage sale, if it looked legit without doing a careful deep dive.  I would let them know they likely have a rare coin, about what a dealer might pay for the coin or the net it might realize from consignment at auction if legit, and offer to split it at whatever they thought was fair within reason.

We should both benefit from my knowledge and you never know what something might actually sell for, and it could possibly be a very deceptive counterfeit, so it's not reasonable for me to accept all the risk.

Edited November 2, 2023 by EagleRJO

[cobymordet]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:43 PM, Sandon said:

I have no qualms about doing so when the seller is a coin dealer or holds him or herself out to be knowledgeable about coins. This is known as "cherrypicking". 

Ethics is an awesome yet slippery slope that will thrust all who dare into a rabbit-hole of multiple choice life decisions that can make a conscience bleed.  Personally, if a less knowledge seller has multiple items that are marked in a deceiving manner that indicates the item to be a rarity or a "special" item but fails to see a more valuable item within their store, in my opinion, as stated by a better man man than I (hence the quote), I will review all items carefully to see what I can see.  It doesn't always pan out, (rarely really) but l am capable of sleeping at night.  But, again, I am a lesser man...boy...child. 

[dprince1138]

Returning this hijacked thread to the original purpose of presenting evidence to those with little experience to learn about gradings

[EagleRJO]

I think you are missing the point some were trying to make about what you're doing being shady.  You are buying raw coins and then reselling them raw at a higher price without proper authentication or attributing of any varieties.  You can't seem to be able to answer the proper way to do that, so I suspect it's not being done.  And just within this post it looks like even with a reference variety you have gotten two wrong.

[Sandon]

   I'm not sure how this thread has been "hijacked" when all the replies are to content that you posted. 

    I agree that it is extremely important for all collectors to become familiar with and experienced in grading (not "gradings") the coins that they wish to collect, but this includes learning to detect impairments that likely reduce a coin's value. I note that all of the coins whose photos you have posted here appear to have been "cleaned" based upon their unnatural color and/or extensive hairlining.

   I have frequently recommended that collectors obtain and study a recognized photographic grading guide such as The Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins (7th ed. 2013) (the ANA Grading Guide) or Making the Grade from Amos Press or at least consult PCGS Photograde online. Learning how to grade also requires "hands on" experience with actual coins that have been graded by third-party grading services or reputable dealers, requiring attendance at such venues as coin shows and coin club meetings. Apart from the Wikipedia article you have mentioned in posts in other topics, what resources do you recommend?