ASE Milk Spots 1 1

[EagleRJO]

Well it happened to me.  I was checking out my 2023-W Proof ASE to figure out a rough grade to put in my log, and yikes there was what I am sure is a milk spot on the obverse jumping right out at me.  Really ruins the look of the coin.  Nothing YET on my 2021 or 2022 Proof ASEs.

I just had to wait until next year to cancel my mint subscription since the mint went woke and seemed more concerned with DEI than quality control.  

[Reno Raines]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:50 AM, EagleRJO said:

Well it happened to me.  I was checking out my 2023-W Proof ASE to figure out a rough grade to put in my log, and yikes there was what I am sure is a milk spot on the obverse jumping right out at me.  Really ruins the look of the coin.  Nothing YET on my 2021 or 2022 Proof ASEs.

I just had to wait until next year to cancel my mint subscription since the mint went woke and seemed more concerned with DEI than quality control.  

A couple of my NGC MS70 burnished ASE's also have a small (bearly noticable) "Milk spot". If I'm understanding everything correctly most if not all modern silver coinage will eventually develop these spots due to the minting process.

[ldhair]

I have not had a problem with milk spots but I have never removed a proof from the mint packaging. A change in holder seems to increase the chances of spots. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:05 AM, Tony Follis said:

A couple of my NGC MS70 burnished ASE's also have a small (bearly noticable) "Milk spot". If I'm understanding everything correctly most if not all modern silver coinage will eventually develop these spots due to the minting process.

Not necessarily....it is kind of random.  I think the one safeguard might be to buy one a few years AFTER striking.  If they haven't developed the spots by then, the chances they will are very much reduced.

[VKurtB]

On 7/22/2023 at 7:05 AM, Tony Follis said:

A couple of my NGC MS70 burnished ASE's also have a small (bearly noticable) "Milk spot". If I'm understanding everything correctly most if not all modern silver coinage will eventually develop these spots due to the minting process.

You DO know, of course, they are NOT still MS70’s any more if it has a milk spot, right? That little paper label doesn’t mean squat any more. Your milkspotted "MS70" coin is now worth nothing more than melt. Mark my words. The site owners here will confirm this, if you don't want to believe me.

Edited July 22 by VKurtB

[powermad5000]

@EagleRJO, it happened to me as well, a few years after my coin was put into an NGC holder. On one of my last times at the safety deposit box while I was doing some choices for removal to sell to make space for higher dollar coins, I noticed my non proof 1972 S silver Ike had developed a milk spot. It was disappointing to see on a very choice MS 68 coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/22/2023 at 3:27 PM, powermad5000 said:

@EagleRJO, it happened to me as well, a few years after my coin was put into an NGC holder. On one of my last times at the safety deposit box while I was doing some choices for removal to sell to make space for higher dollar coins, I noticed my non proof 1972 S silver Ike had developed a milk spot. It was disappointing to see on a very choice MS 68 coin.

So the coin developed the spot after decades, huh ?  That's a bit unusual, from what I have read.

[J P M]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So the coin developed the spot after decades, huh ?  That's a bit unusual, from what I have read.

It may not be a milk spot but something that stuck to the coin and over years humidity off and on can create a spot

[powermad5000]

Seems to be a milk spot. That is not damage to the label btw. I distorted the submission number.

Edited July 22 by powermad5000

[Jason Abshier]

Since it’s a raw coin you might have to dip it to remove the milk spot if it bothers you that much 

[GoldFinger1969]

What years is that NGC label from ?

[RWB]

That's a clear contamination spot likely deposited from dirty air. Corrosion has already damaged the surface. Each time a modern proof or other NCLT coin is removed from its original holder, the chances of this kind of contamination increase. The longer it's exposed, the greater the risk.

These spots are not really what have been called "milk spots" in the past. A milk spot is a whitish, irregular circle, and resembles a surface deposit of evaporated planchet cleaning solution....Think of a water spots (left of center) on drinking glasses. Milk spots can often be removed and do not spread usually spread, although they eventually damage the surface.

[EagleRJO]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:33 AM, ldhair said:

I have not had a problem with milk spots but I have never removed a proof from the mint packaging. A change in holder seems to increase the chances of spots. 

It wasn't previously out of the holder.

[Reno Raines]

When the time comes isn't it possible that NCS will be able to remove the very small milk spot without damaging my coin?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:22 PM, RWB said:

That's a clear contamination spot likely deposited from dirty air.

Dirty air ?  You're not suggesting these things need to be sealed in a clean room, I hope !!  

[EagleRJO]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:22 PM, RWB said:

That's a clear contamination spot likely deposited from dirty air.

I assume you are referring to powermad's coin as the one on mine appears to be a classic milk spot.

[powermad5000]

On 7/22/2023 at 6:09 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What years is that NGC label from ?

I submitted that coin about two or three years ago...can't remember exactly when. In your other comment you said decades....not sure where you read that in my post about it.

 

On 7/22/2023 at 11:17 PM, Tony Follis said:

When the time comes isn't it possible that NCS will be able to remove the very small milk spot without damaging my coin?

As far as I know, NCS cannot remove the milk spots from a proof coin. My silver Ike may be another story. It has been a thought of mine for a while to maybe try to give NCS a go at it.

[J P M]

I had a bad regular strike one once and I got a replacement. So I tried some things on the spotted Eagle.  I know for a fact that a ASE Milk spot will not change even after a good long relaxing easy dip in the tub.

[Jason Abshier]

I always heard Milk spots on pure silver coins was results of the mint washing the planchets in a solvent/degreaser bath before annealing process not all solvent or degreaser is washed off properly before annealing process …

It happening on all type of silver .999 coins even world silver is getting these milk spots it’s not just a US mint problem it can happen anytime even in the original mint capsule it can still develop milk spots there is no time frame when a milk spot can pop up on a coin could be a few months or few years from what I read on the subject …. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/23/2023 at 3:01 AM, powermad5000 said:

I submitted that coin about two or three years ago...can't remember exactly when. In your other comment you said decades....not sure where you read that in my post about it.

No, I was referencing other coins sealed for decades with no blemishes.  You would think a coin which hasn't spotted after 20 years is probably NOT going to spot going forward (at least most of the time ).

[powermad5000]

On 7/23/2023 at 9:51 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You would think a coin which hasn't spotted after 20 years is probably NOT going to spot going forward (at least most of the time ).

I would agree with that 100% but here I am with a 1972 that almost fifty years later developed that spot. Which raises the question on these spots, if not now, when? @EagleRJO since this happened to you not long after yours was made, do you plan to sell the spotted one and get another one with no spot? Just curious.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:05 PM, powermad5000 said:

I would agree with that 100% but here I am with a 1972 that almost fifty years later developed that spot. Which raises the question on these spots, if not now, when? @EagleRJO since this happened to you not long after yours was made, do you plan to sell the spotted one and get another one with no spot? Just curious.

If we find out it was holdered in recent years, that could explain some later contamination.

[VKurtB]

On 7/22/2023 at 11:17 PM, Tony Follis said:

When the time comes isn't it possible that NCS will be able to remove the very small milk spot without damaging my coin?

Theoretically POSSIBLE, in the sense that "anything is possible" (actually a factual lie), but HIGHLY UNLIKELY. Milk spots seem to defy any and all attempts at remediation, on proof, bullion, or burnished. It seems to be an entropy thing. A one-way degradation.

[VKurtB]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:46 AM, Jason Abshier said:

I always heard Milk spots on pure silver coins was results of the mint washing the planchets in a solvent/degreaser bath before annealing process not all solvent or degreaser is washed off properly before annealing process …

It happening on all type of silver .999 coins even world silver is getting these milk spots it’s not just a US mint problem it can happen anytime even in the original mint capsule it can still develop milk spots there is no time frame when a milk spot can pop up on a coin could be a few months or few years from what I read on the subject …. 

And THIS is why buying MS70 silver of ANY type is stupid on steroids.

[RWB]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Dirty air ?  You're not suggesting these things need to be sealed in a clean room, I hope !!  

Research in the Central Mint in China proved that airborne dust, including metal particles, were the cause of surface contamination as shown in the the first image on this post. The contamination pattern from surface silver is in the form of a minute very dark blue/black spot surrounded by a dark blue band, surrounded by a fading lighter blue. This research was done more than 20 years ago and published in academic journals (in English and Mandarin). (It was also investigated in Vienna and Perth, and possibly the U.S. Mint Bureau.)

Color of the visible spot will vary with the contaminant, but the Chinese concentrated on understanding silver. That pointed to the need for complete separation of silver and gold operations....and "Yes," a high level of air purity and contamination prevention....much like a "clean room" and way better than typical hospital surgical theaters.

Edited July 24 by RWB

[RWB]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:03 AM, EagleRJO said:

I assume you are referring to powermad's coin as the one on mine appears to be a classic milk spot.

I was referring to the first coin shown in this thread. The nomenclature is misleading, probably from initial uncertainty about the cause.

Something like "particle contamination" or "silver particle contamination" might be more descriptive. "Milky spot" could apply to the dryer spots that resemble the calcium deposits on the glass illustrated above.

[Fifteen-plus years ago I gave PCGS and NGC the formula for removing "milky spots" caused by the U.S. Mint's use of a version of "Simple Green" in their final planchet rinse (but then dried without a recommended pure alcohol dip/dry). I did not hear from either, and did not follow up. All precious metal planchets now come from contractors, so the Mint has no direct involvement. Silver particle contamination is an entirely different beast. Once visible, it is already too late.]

Edited July 23 by RWB

[VKurtB]

"Perfection is a heartless b----."

[EagleRJO]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:05 PM, powermad5000 said:

@EagleRJO since this happened to you not long after yours was made, do you plan to sell the spotted one and get another one with no spot? Just curious.

I'm not sure what I am going to do at this point, other than cancel my mint subscription, which I did after having that for quite some time.  I emailed the mint, and will see what they say, but I am not holding my breath.

I have a feeling that is the last Proof ASE for me, even though I have them going back to 1986.  At least until the mint cleans up their act, and also finds a solution to this problem.  For me the end started in 2021 with the poorer quality of the coins and capsules, as well as the cheap dollar store like box they switched to.

Seems like the mint is now more concerned with DEI after going woke around 2021, than the quality of products.  It's a shame because I really liked these coins.

[RWB]

Everything that touches the proof ASE/AGE surface, or comes near it is a potential source of contamination. The lounger the exposure or the dirtier, the greater is the potential. That does not mean only the air in the coining room or processing and encapsulation. It means everything including the inside surfaces of capsules, peoples' breath and moisture; clothing fabric softeners and certain UV fluorescent brighteners. Dust kicked up by sound from voices, machinery. the PA system; vibrations from trucks that shake silver dust lodged on the ceiling a decade ago; acoustic tile lint or dust.

Every step has to be clean....And the TPGs have to do exactly the same when they open a capsule and put a coin into another piece of plastic. It is all a "krap shoot" and your odds of getting visible spots go up every time that original is opened; and you pay $50 for the potential of ruining a nice proof surface.

I'm being assertive because too many coins (and money) are ruined through this kind of producer, corporate and collector carelessness.

Edited July 24 by RWB

[Sandon]

@RWB has provided yet another reason not to break modern collectors' issues out of their government packaging and submit them to grading services. Please leave them alone!