Once Red-Hot....Now, They're Not: Fallen Stars 1 1

[cladking]

On 4/7/2024 at 9:20 PM, VKurtB said:

In that case, allow me to introduce myself. Solid BU rolls are LEGION in central Pennsylvania. Every coin club auction, every public coin auction, every flea market table, virtually EVERYWHERE. I currently hold about 700ish solid BU rolls. Various dates. My most recent purchase was, all by itself, in excess of 100 rolls.  And other than those, there are about five GALLONS of miscellaneous cents. Am I “normal”. Aw hellz naw. 

I was much more referring to collectors of 1968 -'99 clad rolls and especially those collecting the rolls in and of themselves.  I've met or conversed with several individuals who buy rolls but they are cherry picking Gem or varieties.  Frequently the castoffs are just put into circulation. The mint has been selling various BU rolls since 1999.  Before this there was no demand and today there is virtually no supply.  Very few original rolls were ever saved and the attrition on the ones that were saved is extremely high because of their low price and because they get picked over.  Fewer than a couple thousand rolls of something a '72-D quarter were saved and the attrition on these is sky high as collectors seek things like DDR's, type h reverses, and Gems.    It certainly wouldn't leave many for collectors.  

I know several people who buy such rolls but I'm aware of no specific individual who collects them.  

[cladking]

Even today Greysheet price on a roll of something like 'a '72 quarter roll is $15.   These Philly rolls exist in tiny numbers (even fewer than the Denver) and most of the coins are simply ugly.  These simply can't be sold easily.  There is very limited demand since there are virtually no Gems or varieties to be found in them.  The cost of shipping is prohibitive and there will be no local demand no matter where you are.  Such coins simply tend to be spent.  If the owner doesn't spend them than his heirs will or the dealer who buys them will.  

People imagine not only that there are millions of coins saved back and that they are all nice chBU coins jam packed with Gems but the typical '72 BU quarter roll might have one chBU coin in it.  The rest are ugly.   The ,long and short of it is that even though there are so few '72 quarters in original rolls these have a very high attrition rate.  

Each date of eagle reverse clads is different but no date is truly "common" in BU rolls.  The '82's and '83's came closest to being common in rolls but most of those rolls are long gone now days.  The '65 to '68 were also saved but these are gone as well.  All that's left are the mint sets but they've been decimated and contrary to popular belief Gems are not extremely common in mint sets.  The most common account for 6 to 8% of production and the least common less than one half a percent of production.  I've seen hundreds of 1982 Philly souvenir sets and have never seen a quarter that even approaches being a true Gem.  Even chBU's are none too common in these sets. 

 

Even if we could find hundreds or thousands of BU roll collectors it would have little impact on the availability of chBU's of most dates.  But the rolls and collectors aren't out there or they'd be visible.  

[zadok]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:20 PM, VKurtB said:

In that case, allow me to introduce myself. Solid BU rolls are LEGION in central Pennsylvania. Every coin club auction, every public coin auction, every flea market table, virtually EVERYWHERE. I currently hold about 700ish solid BU rolls. Various dates. My most recent purchase was, all by itself, in excess of 100 rolls.  And other than those, there are about five GALLONS of miscellaneous cents. Am I “normal”. Aw hellz naw. 

...ditto central ohio, western pa, western wv, southern ind, northern ky...i go to several weekly coin auctions in that geographical area, bank rolls of wash qrts, roos dimes, jeff nickels, linc cents r always being sold often by the bank boxes...the post '64 dates sell for face plus auctioneers 10%, the pre '64 silver wash n roos normally silver plus 5-10 % sometimes under melt plus auctioneers 10 %...i buy the silver if under n ship to my refiner when silver moves the post '64 stuff just sell in bulk to local flea dealers, never open any of them, there r often several hundred rolls sold i see no dearth of any of these if one wants them....

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:48 AM, zadok said:

...ditto central ohio, western pa, western wv, southern ind, northern ky...i go to several weekly coin auctions in that geographical area, bank rolls of wash qrts, roos dimes, jeff nickels, linc cents r always being sold often by the bank boxes...the post '64 dates sell for face plus auctioneers 10%, the pre '64 silver wash n roos normally silver plus 5-10 % sometimes under melt plus auctioneers 10 %...i buy the silver if under n ship to my refiner when silver moves the post '64 stuff just sell in bulk to local flea dealers, never open any of them, there r often several hundred rolls sold i see no dearth of any of these if one wants them....

...And how many 1965 to 1999 dime and quarter rolls do you see?   

[J P M]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:30 AM, cladking said:

I know several people who buy such rolls but I'm aware of no specific individual who collects them.  

Well from the looks of it, Kurt has some rolls. And Zadok also sees them.

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:52 AM, J P M said:

Well from the looks of it, Kurt has some rolls. And Zadok also sees them.

Bu rolls are not interchangeable.  Yes, there are millions of 1999 to date rolls because people started collecting from pocket change again in 1999.   But if you're looking for a nice choice roll of '69 quarters it doesn't matter how many rolls of Delaware quarters or 2009 Lincolns you can find.  

[J P M]

There are collectors here like Kurt that buy rolls directly from the mint the year they come out. CK

[cladking]

You can also find some penny and nickel rolls dated from '68 to '99 but it's not like you can trade in 5 1969 nickel rolls for a roll of '69 quarters.  

You can also find rolls of '76 quarters without too much trouble.   I'd be surprised if '97 and '98 quarters are really scarce.  

I've been in dozens of coin shops and scoured coin shows for decades and haven't seen even a couple hundred rolls and NONE AT ALL in 25 years.  What I do see is pennies, nickels, and the occasional half or dollar.  I see stacks of pre-1965 BU rolls and since 1999 I see vast numbers of post-'99 coinage.  

Maybe it's hard to see what's not there.  

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:01 AM, J P M said:

There are collectors here like Kurt that buy rolls directly from the mint the year they come out. CK

Until 1999 the mint sold no rolls.  

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:52 AM, cladking said:

...And how many 1965 to 1999 dime and quarter rolls do you see?   

...more than i can carry, as mentioned these sell at face....

[J P M]

So CK you are saying anything purchased at banks before 1999 will be mostly junk common coins, No BU.

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:03 AM, cladking said:

Until 1999 the mint sold no rolls.  

...but u could go into ur local bank n request they obtain mint boxes or bags before then....

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:01 AM, J P M said:

There are collectors here like Kurt that buy rolls directly from the mint the year they come out. CK

Just to be clear I like the post 1999 coinage and save some of it myself.  I collect some as well.   I believe opportunities abound to both make money and learn a great deal from collecting the coins.  But the fact is all of the coins since 1999 have been saved in some (limited) quantity and some in vast quantities.  I believe all coins are collectible but it seems I might be the only one who believes pre-'99 clad is collectible.  

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:02 AM, cladking said:

You can also find some penny and nickel rolls dated from '68 to '99 but it's not like you can trade in 5 1969 nickel rolls for a roll of '69 quarters.  

You can also find rolls of '76 quarters without too much trouble.   I'd be surprised if '97 and '98 quarters are really scarce.  

I've been in dozens of coin shops and scoured coin shows for decades and haven't seen even a couple hundred rolls and NONE AT ALL in 25 years.  What I do see is pennies, nickels, and the occasional half or dollar.  I see stacks of pre-1965 BU rolls and since 1999 I see vast numbers of post-'99 coinage.  

Maybe it's hard to see what's not there.  

...theres a reason they r not in the shops or at the shows, there r no buyers n they dont sell n the dealers r not going carry them around or take up space with them....

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:10 AM, cladking said:

Just to be clear I like the post 1999 coinage and save some of it myself.  I collect some as well.   I believe opportunities abound to both make money and learn a great deal from collecting the coins.  But the fact is all of the coins since 1999 have been saved in some (limited) quantity and some in vast quantities.  I believe all coins are collectible but it seems I might be the only one who believes pre-'99 clad is collectible.  

...i think u may be onto something there in that last part....

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:08 AM, J P M said:

So CK you are saying anything purchased at banks before 1999 will be mostly junk common coins, No BU.

No.  Not exactly.  Some dates were made pretty well and chBU in the rolls were common.   Some dates were made so well that even Gems appear.   But other dates can be really tough nice.  '69 quarters were one of the worst which is likely why these don't come in rolls.  But dates like the '72-D are much nicer and there were as many as twenty nice coins in the typical roll.  '76 quarters are much higher quality on average but the higher grades are not more common.  Some dates are tough but Gems can be more readily available.  Each date and mint is unique.  

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:08 AM, zadok said:

...but u could go into ur local bank n request they obtain mint boxes or bags before then....

Banks were not set up to honor such requests.   No doubt some asked anyway and no doubt banks sometimes accommodated them.  But the fact is nobody wanted the coins so the number of requests was very limited.  There were more requests for pennies and nickels.  

Most of the banks I walked into refused me.   Even my own bank thought it was strange I wanted a bag of quarters and made me jump through hoops to get them.  

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:11 AM, zadok said:

...theres a reason they r not in the shops or at the shows, there r no buyers n they dont sell n the dealers r not going carry them around or take up space with them....

Yes!!!   Exactly.   If the coins do come in, and they do in highly limited numbers, they go straight into the cash register.  Every year fewer and fewer come in.   Just like BU rolls most of the coins in the cash register today are mint set coins.  

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 9:07 AM, zadok said:

...more than i can carry, as mentioned these sell at face....

We're talking apples and oranges here.   I'm talking about original BU rolls and you're talking about mint set rolls.  While most mint set rolls sell at a significant premium there are several dates that trade at Greysheet which is based on original rolls.  Greysheet price for the non-existent original rolls are so close to face value and the demand so limited that it's hardly surprising there would be no interest at your coin club.  It is a little surprising that you're seeing mint set rolls but it just goes to show what I'm saying; there are no rolls and the mint sets are gone.  

If you ever do see any original rolls I'd be interested in knowing what dates they are.  

While I like mint set rolls a lot potential buyers should be aware that most of these rolls are cast offs.  Cherry pickers go through large numbers of sets and remove the varieties and Gems.  Some will even cut deep into the chBU's.  You want to look at these rolls before buying them.   The best chBU rolls are missing only the top 1% of coins and the bottom 40%.   

There could be some sellers putting mint set coins into wrappers because there is all of a sudden some demand for clad BU rolls.   These will be easy to spot with some experience because most mint set coins do not look like the original roll coins.  A good rule of thumb is if you see a BU roll of these coins it is NOT an original roll and is merely another 40 or 50 cut up mint sets.  Original rolls are almost non-existent and tend to be low grade anyway.  

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:20 AM, cladking said:

Banks were not set up to honor such requests.   No doubt some asked anyway and no doubt banks sometimes accommodated them.  But the fact is nobody wanted the coins so the number of requests was very limited.  There were more requests for pennies and nickels.  

Most of the banks I walked into refused me.   Even my own bank thought it was strange I wanted a bag of quarters and made me jump through hoops to get them.  

...i never had any issues with it, even with quarters n halves....

[zadok]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:38 AM, cladking said:

We're talking apples and oranges here.   I'm talking about original BU rolls and you're talking about mint set rolls.  While most mint set rolls sell at a significant premium there are several dates that trade at Greysheet which is based on original rolls.  Greysheet price for the non-existent original rolls are so close to face value and the demand so limited that it's hardly surprising there would be no interest at your coin club.  It is a little surprising that you're seeing mint set rolls but it just goes to show what I'm saying; there are no rolls and the mint sets are gone.  

If you ever do see any original rolls I'd be interested in knowing what dates they are.  

While I like mint set rolls a lot potential buyers should be aware that most of these rolls are cast offs.  Cherry pickers go through large numbers of sets and remove the varieties and Gems.  Some will even cut deep into the chBU's.  You want to look at these rolls before buying them.   The best chBU rolls are missing only the top 1% of coins and the bottom 40%.   

There could be some sellers putting mint set coins into wrappers because there is all of a sudden some demand for clad BU rolls.   These will be easy to spot with some experience because most mint set coins do not look like the original roll coins.  A good rule of thumb is if you see a BU roll of these coins it is NOT an original roll and is merely another 40 or 50 cut up mint sets.  Original rolls are almost non-existent and tend to be low grade anyway.  

...no, im talking bout bank rolls that collectors ordered or got from their local banks each year not assembled coin rolls from mint sets...example, recent local estate...gentleman died like 20 years ago, his children just got around to selling his coin collection last year through several sessions of auctions due to volume of coins, 42,000 pocket change in coffee cans plus all his whitman blue trifolds n 3000-4000 mint sets n over 2000 bank rolls of nickels, dimes, quarters n halves...he started buying rolls soon after the big rush on 1950-D nickels, his bank rolls ran from 1952-1978 when he quit buying rolls...i attended every auction session n bought just about everything i wanted, silver sold for silver n post 64 sold for face, none of the local collectors wanted rolls of anything...a few came to me n wanted to know if i wanted to sell individual coins or could they go thru the rolls...nada...i wholesaled out the entire lot including the 10,000 circ wheat pennies i had to buy as a lot to get a couple of linc bank rolls i wanted...my one collector son wanted all the 63-64 wash qrts to check for varieties, i personally did not check any of the coins....

[VKurtB]

For decades, my most frequent source of solid BU rolls were freshly opened rolls in my family’s retail store. Now I buy them at auctions from other collectors. Yes, I also do occasionally buy solid rolls from the U.S. Mint (half dollars and dollars mostly). The Gadsden/ Rainbow City club is a VERY auction intensive club, and more than a few dealers at their recent show offered rolls in multiple denominations and dates. Bottom line: BU rolls are available, in quantities that satisfy the level of demand quite well. If @cladking is seeing a demand/supply mismatch, I suggest it is a local phenomenon. 

[Henri Charriere]

I don't know if they were ever Red Hot, or not, but all this roll-hoarding is too time-consuming and I do not see the cost- effectiveness of maintaini g a fleet of fork-lifts.

Have any of you medieval hoarders ever considered 100 or 1000 troy ounce bars?  Why drown in tons of tons of metal when you can consolidate your holdings? You've all been around long enough to know had you acquired a kilo-sized bar of gold with a universally recognized hallmark, you could have easily doubled and tripled your investments. I fail to see the purpose of stockpiling silver rolls, much less clads.  They're in paper rolls?  What do you guys do, pile up mountains of rolls and contemplate the words NICKELS, DIMES and QUARTERS ON THEM?  A BU ROLL OF '64 KENNEDYs MAKES SENSE.  All this newfangled stuff makes no sense at all.  I have mentally carved out exceptions for roll-hunting Newbies. What I want to know is what is the big attraction of paper rolls in cardboard boxes and wheel barrows of coins? What is that, the illusion of wealth?  Time is money!

To the OP:  Sorry.  A '95-W I can wrap my mind around. The moral there is get in, make a killing, and get out.  All this loose change stuff hearkens to one's youth. What I want to know is why all you guys, many with considerable means, haven't outgrown this? There's no way anyone can convince me coins that aren't "real" (minted with non-precious metal, new or not) are worth anything.  Nothing I have said here should offend anyone.  If it doesn't apply, let it fly.   🐓 

[VKurtB]

On 4/8/2024 at 8:46 PM, Henri Charriere said:

I don't know if they were ever Red Hot, or not, but all this roll-hoarding is too time-consuming and I do not see the cost- effectiveness of maintaini g a fleet of fork-lifts.

Have any of you medieval hoarders ever considered 100 or 1000 troy ounce bars?  Why drown in tons of tons of metal when you can consolidate your holdings? You've all been around long enough to know had you acquired a kilo-sized bar of gold with a universally recognized hallmark, you could have easily doubled and tripled your investments. I fail to see the purpose of stockpiling silver rolls, much less clads.  They're in paper rolls?  What do you guys do, pile up mountains of rolls and contemplate the words NICKELS, DIMES and QUARTERS ON THEM?  A BU ROLL OF '64 KENNEDYs MAKES SENSE.  All this newfangled stuff makes no sense at all.  I have mentally carved out exceptions for roll-hunting Newbies. What I want to know is what is the big attraction of paper rolls in cardboard boxes and wheel barrows of coins? What is that, the illusion of wealth?  Time is money!

To the OP:  Sorry.  A '95-W I can wrap my mind around. The moral there is get in, make a killing, and get out.  All this loose change stuff hearkens to one's youth. What I want to know is why all you guys, many with considerable means, haven't outgrown this? There's no way anyone can convince me coins that aren't "real" (minted with non-precious metal, new or not) are worth anything.  Nothing I have said here should offend anyone.  If it doesn't apply, let it fly.   🐓 

I don’t keep them in paper. That’s just asking for at least some nasty edge toning, if not worse. I store BU rolls in plastic screw-cap tubes, plus I’ve kept some bought in friction fit cap rolls, some two-ended. I bought them that way, and that’s the way they’ve stayed. I don’t feel obligated to keep coins in storage media that WILL degrade them. I have cents and nickels from the 1940’s in plastic tubes, each and every one of which is superior to some of the coins about which owners are asking, “Should I get this coin graded?”

I also have about 15 solid BU rolls of 1970-S cents that have not yet been searched for small dates, and another 10 or so 1969-S rolls that haven’t been searched for the doubled die. I opened one roll and found a verrrry wide strike double 69-S that had my heart in trouble. I had to put the other rolls back for a few years. 
 

I do not care for AT ALL bars of silver or gold. I’m primarily a legal tender guy, who has no preference for so-called “precious metals”. 

Edited April 9 by VKurtB

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 5:54 PM, VKurtB said:

For decades, my most frequent source of solid BU rolls were freshly opened rolls in my family’s retail store. Now I buy them at auctions from other collectors. Yes, I also do occasionally buy solid rolls from the U.S. Mint (half dollars and dollars mostly). The Gadsden/ Rainbow City club is a VERY auction intensive club, and more than a few dealers at their recent show offered rolls in multiple denominations and dates. Bottom line: BU rolls are available, in quantities that satisfy the level of demand quite well. If @cladking is seeing a demand/supply mismatch, I suggest it is a local phenomenon. 

I am quite aware there are some clad dime and quarter rolls out there.  I talk to cherry pickers who search them for Gems and varieties. These rolls despite their highly limited availability have even less demand.  At least until quite recently they had almost no demand but suddenly they seem to be in experiencing significant demand.  Of course all or most of this demand is being supplied largely by mint set coins. Perhaps owners of original rolls (however many exist) aren't selling enough to satisfy demand.  Since the supply of mint set coins dwarfs the supply of original rolls this does make sense.  As I maintain, there aren't even enough mint sets to satisfy a mass market.

Prices are not substantially higher yet but if the demand continues or grows I see no other possible outcome.  

[cladking]

On 4/8/2024 at 5:54 PM, VKurtB said:

For decades, my most frequent source of solid BU rolls were freshly opened rolls in my family’s retail store. Now I buy them at auctions from other collectors. Yes, I also do occasionally buy solid rolls from the U.S. Mint (half dollars and dollars mostly). The Gadsden/ Rainbow City club is a VERY auction intensive club, and more than a few dealers at their recent show offered rolls in multiple denominations and dates. Bottom line: BU rolls are available, in quantities that satisfy the level of demand quite well. If @cladking is seeing a demand/supply mismatch, I suggest it is a local phenomenon. 

Of course you realize that I'm very curious what you have in terms of original rolls of eagle reverse quarters.  I suppose you mostly have the Philly issues.  In the early days did you seek out the better rolls or better dates or just set aside what was available?  Did you save the dime rolls as well?   

I run into so little of this sort of thing that it's hard to get a feel for what's out there.  

[samclemen3991]

I am a little baffled by the idea of collecting rolls of coins.  I will admit that when i was a kid in the 60's I had a neighbor named Mr. Windy.  He had 4 igloo coolers in his basement and each one was labeled with a decade and were full of rolls of Walking Liberty Halves.  However, he was obsessed with that particular coin.  he even made large wooden copies of the Walker design and decorated them with real coins.

Do you fixate on one type of coin?  It seems a tremendous commitment of resources for what?  something you never look at?  Do you expect some kind of reward?  Hope this doesn't come off as too combative but I won't lie.

I sorta understood Mr. Windy and his fixation but cannot see a rationale for hoarding coins made in the billions.  james

[cladking]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:43 AM, samclemen3991 said:

I am a little baffled by the idea of collecting rolls of coins.  I will admit that when i was a kid in the 60's I had a neighbor named Mr. Windy.  He had 4 igloo coolers in his basement and each one was labeled with a decade and were full of rolls of Walking Liberty Halves.  However, he was obsessed with that particular coin.  he even made large wooden copies of the Walker design and decorated them with real coins.

Do you fixate on one type of coin?  It seems a tremendous commitment of resources for what?  something you never look at?  Do you expect some kind of reward?  Hope this doesn't come off as too combative but I won't lie.

I sorta understood Mr. Windy and his fixation but cannot see a rationale for hoarding coins made in the billions.  james

All of these coins weren't made in the billions and none of them were saved.  Now even those that were made in the billion have few survivors and virtually every one that does survive is either a cull or in very poor condition.  Even attractive circulated '65 quarters with a mintage near two billion are getting hard to find in nice attractive F or better. Even roll searching won't turn up a nice attractive VG or better 1969.  People have been talking about the high mintages, ugliness, and uncollectibility of these coins since 1965.   The common wisdom was wrong in 1965 and it's far more wrong today.  There are plenty of nice examples made every year by the mint but you actually had to go look for them because there were not enough made that you'd even notice.  

I've already gotten rid of most of my clad and it's all been at a profit; a very modest profit to be sure but it leaves me with a few safety deposit boxes full of nice Gems for which I have a very low cost basis.  This includes many never seen coins like Gem '69 quarters that obviously didn't originate in mint sets.  There are too many coins made since 1965 that have been overlooked to even list.  Collectors missed the boat.  

Instead of setting aside nice gemmy '76 dimes they were too busy stashing rolls and bags of bicentennial coins.  Pretty soon it will be so hard to complete any set from circulation that hundreds of thousands of beginning and young collectors will have no choice but to search elsewhere.  In the meantime the last of the mint sets are being consumed by a market that places no value on moderns.  Sets that are not being consumed by the market are succumbing to tarnish so as the last of the coins disappear from circulation the mint sets will be gone as well.   Then I won't hear any more about coins made in the billions aren't really collectible. 

Obviously this drawdown of mint sets and disappearance of key dates in change  is going to be dependent on the continuing demand.  This demand is still quite tiny but has been growing steadily since 1995.  It is so tiny it could increase several fold.  

[Henri Charriere]

@samclemen3991 ... re the entire content of your post upthread.  (I attempted to address this phenomenon a few posts above yours, but failed miserably to keep my composure. You succeeded spectacularly.)

Mesi anpil! ... Xie Xie!... ...Feichang ganxie! ... Danke schon! ... Merci beaucoup! et Mesi anpil! Thank you very much!!!

 

[samclemen3991]

So Cladking, are you saying you cherry pick very specific dates and conditional rareties?  as I understood some of the information posted here, they  are saying they save wholesale lots of all the denominations and all the dates.  also that they leave these lots unsearched.  I find that approach puzzling but perhaps I miss understood.  james