ASE Newbie Question 1 1

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

What is the attraction of DCAM and Ultra Cameo coins in terms of price, value, and grade or is it just eye appeal and/ or  personal preference ? 

[ldhair]

Eye appeal is part of it. Also some collectors want the UNC and the proof in their collection.

[Sandon]

   I assume that you're only talking about proof coins, not circulation strike coins described as "prooflike" or "deep prooflike". The term "DCAM" for "deep cameo" is the terminology used by PCGS. while "UCAM" for "ultra cameo" is used by NGC.  They mean more or less the same thing. NGC's definition for "Ultra Cameo" is "[t]he fields are deeply mirrored, and the devices are heavily frosted for bold contrast on both sides of the coin." For a "cameo" designation the contrast need only be "moderate" instead of "bold".

   U.S. proof coins made since about 1975 are nearly all deep cameos, so there is generally no premium for them, and the pieces that are "mere" cameos or don't have sufficient contrast to be called cameos aren't regarded as particularly desirable. 

   Proof coins from earlier years, especially before 1971 and going back to the mid-nineteenth century, are mostly considered scarce to rare as cameos and more so as deep cameos.  This is due to the use of earlier technologies that caused proof dies to rapidly lose the frosting on their lettering and devices, which as I recall has been discussed on other topics in these forums. Cameo and especially deep cameo proofs are generally regarded as more attractive and desirable than proofs with devices that show little or no contrast with the fields, so they generally command at least some premium, often a substantial premium.  Their populations and pricing vary from series to series and year to year. They are usually priced separately in the NGC and PCGS price guides, to which you should refer.

 

[J P M]

I like ASE's. I have a full set 86-23 of ASE and just because I can. I have 1  Mint Proof. 1 MS70 NGC and 1 MS 70 DCAM PCGS . I don't think I need more than that unless it is a special deal or a special date.

[powermad5000]

DCAM or UC (Ultra Cameo in the case of NGC), is an objectival description of a proof coin. In the case of NGC, there is Proof, Proof Cameo, and Proof Ultra Cameo descriptions along with the numerical grade. Each designation depends on the depth of mirroring in the fields, and the level of frost on the raised devices, or how much contrast exists between the two. These designations are basically only for eye appeal.

Once the collector seeks out these coins, it becomes a matter of preference to the individual collector. There are those that absolutely will not buy a proof coin unless it is either DCAM or UC. Those collectors in this vein see anything lesser as that the proof is somehow impaired and will pay premium dollars for coins with the label designating what they believe to be the highest standard for a proof. It may not make sense to other collectors as in reality a PF 69 is much less "impaired" than a PF 67 UC which is why I say these designations are strictly for eye appeal.

In the case of modern proofs, actual value is still attached to the numerical grade. As an example, take the Sacagawea Dollar Proofs. Price guide values for a PF 69 UC could only be roughly $25-40. That next step up to PF 70 UC has some values shooting up to anywhere between $100-250 depending on numbers certified at that level and the demand for them.

[Sandon]

   The term "ASE" in the title didn't register with me, so I thought the question was about proof coins generally and responded accordingly. I refer to these coins as "Silver Eagles".  However, I'm still not sure what the question is, as a glance at the NGC Census reveals that about 99% of proof Silver Eagles dated before 2006 and 100% from and after 2006 are graded "UCAM" (ultra cameo), so there isn't much room for "preference".  The uncirculated bullion issues and the "burnished uncirculated" and other collectors' issues, to which the "ultra cameo" terminology doesn't apply, are regarded as separate issues; and collectors who want complete sets of Silver Eagles collect all of them as well as the proofs.  Perhaps @LDH Coins & Memorabilia should clarify his question.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:56 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

What is the attraction of DCAM and Ultra Cameo coins in terms of price, value, and grade or is it just eye appeal and/ or  personal preference ? 

Mostly marketing and you pay up for it. 

Have I ?  Yes....would I do it all or most of the time ?  No way !  

Like the difference in a new coin that is an MS-70 vs. 69 and even vs. a 68....unless you have a super-sharp eye, you can't tell the difference.  I will take it that it IS there....but unless you really look hard, it's going to take you some time to see it (and nobody can be an expert on all different coins and commemeratives).  Presumably, you pay more for it and you HOPE that the premium maintains or expands over time....but who knows ?

I have a 5-ounce coin graded 68PL and I can't tell the difference from my PF69 or PF70.  Ditto for the 69s vs. 70's.  And those are BIG coins !!

Once place I did pay up for it is in the National Park Foundation Augustus Saint-Gaudens commemoratives.  The silver coins were affordable in the 70 grade so even though the premium from 69 was big, the absolute dollar amount wasn't.  But I have seen huge % and dollar boosts to other coins for folks chasing the condition rarity and labels like the 5-ounce silver 1969 Moon Landing commemoratives.  $200 for a 69 and double or triple that for a 70.

[Jason Abshier]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:56 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

What is the attraction of DCAM and Ultra Cameo coins in terms of price, value, and grade or is it just eye appeal and/ or  personal preference ? 

Both mean they same thing … DCAM is used by PCGS , UC is used by NGC…. Now if you we are talking about Morgan dollars or some other series where there is PL and DPL (NGC) and PCGS uses PL and DMPL there’s a big difference in grades and price ranges 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/10/2023 at 1:35 PM, Jason Abshier said:

Now if you we are talking about Morgan dollars or some other series where there is PL and DPL (NGC) and PCGS uses PL and DMPL there’s a big difference in grades and price ranges 

Big difference between what ?

[Jason Abshier]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Big difference between what ?

PL and DMPL there’s a price difference between the two how they are classified

[Fenntucky Mike]

No difference between DCAM and UC, both are the same. It's pretty rare that a modern, last 40yrs,  doesn't have cameo contrast. If a coin does not, it's either on purpose or a subpar example. For the most part....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 4/10/2023 at 8:20 PM, Jason Abshier said:

PL and DMPL there’s a price difference between the two how they are classified

Gotcha.....and like the differential between a 70 and 69 for Moderns, you never know when the price of a PL will fall a good amount and the price of a DMPL modern will plunge A TON ! 

Look at those trophy 1995-W ASEs.

[Jason Abshier]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:44 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

the differential between a 70 and 69 for Moderns

I don’t have Superman eyes I wouldn’t be able tell difference between 69-70 grade on silver eagles … I believe the grader put blindfolds on just picks out some random silver eagle out of a bunch and says this one will be the “mighty one” that will get 70 grade! What about all the rest ? 69ers!!!! probably didn’t even look at them HA! … Would you like to be the grader that looks at a monster boxes of silver eagles every year?  Each one after another ? I wouldn’t it  sounds pretty boring looking at huge shipment of “nearly perfect coins” that are not really made for circulation and made on state of the art modern minting presses … I can see MS68 or MS67 for having Milkspots other than the “strike” is usually bold ! It’s fully struck well on Silver eagles … 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Jason Abshier

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

On 4/9/2023 at 11:31 AM, Sandon said:

   The term "ASE" in the title didn't register with me, so I thought the question was about proof coins generally and responded accordingly. I refer to these coins as "Silver Eagles".  However, I'm still not sure what the question is, as a glance at the NGC Census reveals that about 99% of proof Silver Eagles dated before 2006 and 100% from and after 2006 are graded "UCAM" (ultra cameo), so there isn't much room for "preference".  The uncirculated bullion issues and the "burnished uncirculated" and other collectors' issues, to which the "ultra cameo" terminology doesn't apply, are regarded as separate issues; and collectors who want complete sets of Silver Eagles collect all of them as well as the proofs.  Perhaps @LDH Coins & Memorabilia should clarify his question.

Yes you are correct, my question had ambiguity. I really was asking about UNC Silver Eagles vs all others in terms of attraction, value etc. Thanx for input  

[EagleRJO]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:05 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Yes you are correct, my question had ambiguity. I really was asking about UNC Silver Eagles vs all others in terms of attraction, value etc. Thanx for input  

To muddy the waters a little more you can also have UNC (uncirculated) silver eagles in addition to the proof and bullion ones.

Many use "ASE" to mean either bullion or proof silver eagles, so I usually clarify which if the one referenced is not obvious.

Attached: Proof ASE, Burnished ASE and Bullion ASE (no MM)

Edited July 11, 2023 by EagleRJO

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:23 PM, EagleRJO said:

To muddy the waters a little more you can have UNC (uncirculated) bullion silver eagles.  Many use "ASE" to mean either bullion or proof silver eagles, so I usually clarify which if the one referenced is not obvious.

Attached: Proof ASE and Bullion ASE

Thank You so much for the education !!!  

[Roy Winters]

so how do you get the ultra cameo or deep cameo designation.  when grading at NGC, do you have to pick something on the submit forms?  do you have to go to a highter tier?  how do you get them?

[VKurtB]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:24 PM, Roy Winters said:

so how do you get the ultra cameo or deep cameo designation.  when grading at NGC, do you have to pick something on the submit forms?  do you have to go to a highter tier?  how do you get them?

If they are one, it’s automatically given..

[Coinbuf]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:24 PM, Roy Winters said:

so how do you get the ultra cameo or deep cameo designation.  when grading at NGC, do you have to pick something on the submit forms?  do you have to go to a highter tier?  how do you get them?

NGC gives that designation to the proof coins that they feel are deserving, it does not require any special tier.   The fact is that almost every proof coin that the mint produces today, including proof ASE's, are produced with DCAM surfaces, it would be the exception for any modern proof coin not to receive a DCAM designation.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Coinbuf

[Reno Raines]

On 4/11/2023 at 10:05 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Yes you are correct, my question had ambiguity. I really was asking about UNC Silver Eagles vs all others in terms of attraction, value etc. Thanx for input  

When it comes to ASE's I only collect the burnished aka the UNC. The burnished ASE program began in 2006 and have been minted each year since with the exception of 2009 and 2010. The burnished ASE's have the least amount minted each year compared to the bullion and proof versions. For this reason some "Experts" consider the burnished ASE's as a modern day rarity. Hope this helps.

[VKurtB]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:30 PM, Tony Follis said:

When it comes to ASE's I only collect the burnished aka the UNC. The burnished ASE program began in 2006 and have been minted each year since with the exception of 2009 and 2010. The burnished ASE's have the least amount minted each year compared to the bullion and proof versions. For this reason some "Experts" consider the burnished ASE's as a modern day rarity. Hope this helps.

Same with me. I buy the W-mintmarked Burnished Uncirculated and the bullion strikes only. I got so tired of proofs. To me, they're just plain dumb-looking.

Edited July 11, 2023 by VKurtB

[Reno Raines]

On 7/11/2023 at 11:22 AM, VKurtB said:

Same with me. I buy the W-mintmarked Burnished Uncirculated and the bullion strikes only. I got so tired of proofs. To me, they're just plain dumb-looking.

I agree with you VKurtB about the proofs.

[VKurtB]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:48 PM, Tony Follis said:

I agree with you VKurtB about the proofs.

Yet oddly, I do get the silver and clad proof sets of the circulation denominations, to break them up for my 8000-series Dansco album sets. 

[Modwriter]

I just purchased my first proof set from the US Mint. 2023, clad, s minted. I went back to purchase the 2022 proof set but they were sold out. Found a proof set on Amazon but close to 3x the regular mint price. Is this normal for proof sets?

 

[Reno Raines]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:09 PM, Modwriter said:

I just purchased my first proof set from the US Mint. 2023, clad, s minted. I went back to purchase the 2022 proof set but they were sold out. Found a proof set on Amazon but close to 3x the regular mint price. Is this normal for proof sets?

 

I don't collect the proof version of ASE's but if I were you I'd look elsewhere to try to find a better deal.

[VKurtB]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:09 PM, Modwriter said:

I just purchased my first proof set from the US Mint. 2023, clad, s minted. I went back to purchase the 2022 proof set but they were sold out. Found a proof set on Amazon but close to 3x the regular mint price. Is this normal for proof sets?

 

No.

[VKurtB]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:09 PM, Modwriter said:

I just purchased my first proof set from the US Mint. 2023, clad, s minted. I went back to purchase the 2022 proof set but they were sold out. Found a proof set on Amazon but close to 3x the regular mint price. Is this normal for proof sets?

 

The Mint discontinues all the previous year's when the new one comes out.

[BearlyHereBear]

Just a thought on proof sets:  Clad proof sets are not as likely to appreciate in value over time.  Most are readily available on Ebay for very modest prices.  Silver proof set hold and gain value better,

When it comes to ASE's, it's usually better to wait a bit after first released and prices drop a bit.  This does not apply to special editions (reverse proof, enhanced, privy marked, etc...) as those sell quickly and increase in cost (sometimes at a phenomenal rate).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285377196736?hash=item4271ce72c0:g:h2UAAOSwHitkrgkk&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JIU9PbRqgiNKNYX8%2B8yA78gxN9fQ2TmnLXpCIh0KQR39nsd679xX9uTAI%2FvT69s8G4HUPvAMuwNvK3SKTK5CCQppZAXHYe%2FjMQ%2FsTraaZe4mEc6U2%2FO%2FAtSQX7ddbdxoXrpOVJkPwb2pVWLOAj292FTvngdvUDVeLk%2Fo5Mw2L1c4bK6MgwJbQEr8ANh7K4zO5z6LE7alu0LMbMteU71EuYV48NWeFfPDwcDuRMReAXtH2CHl79FxYaBsGLTflxhn83I%2FJ9JrUssD0pQffv80thCByc9Lc6UHo%2BtqwBOcISD|tkp%3ABk9SR_ydqJOtYg

Of the 3 generally issued types (bullion, proof, and uncirculated or burnished), the uncirculated or burnished always has the lowest mintage (yet is not the most expensive...weird).  Easily identifiable since it has a W mint mark which is missing on the bullion coins.

[VKurtB]

On 7/18/2023 at 8:38 AM, BearlyHereBear said:

Just a thought on proof sets:  Clad proof sets are not as likely to appreciate in value over time.  Most are readily available on Ebay for very modest prices.  Silver proof set hold and gain value better,

When it comes to ASE's, it's usually better to wait a bit after first released and prices drop a bit.  This does not apply to special editions (reverse proof, enhanced, privy marked, etc...) as those sell quickly and increase in cost (sometimes at a phenomenal rate).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285377196736?hash=item4271ce72c0:g:h2UAAOSwHitkrgkk&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JIU9PbRqgiNKNYX8%2B8yA78gxN9fQ2TmnLXpCIh0KQR39nsd679xX9uTAI%2FvT69s8G4HUPvAMuwNvK3SKTK5CCQppZAXHYe%2FjMQ%2FsTraaZe4mEc6U2%2FO%2FAtSQX7ddbdxoXrpOVJkPwb2pVWLOAj292FTvngdvUDVeLk%2Fo5Mw2L1c4bK6MgwJbQEr8ANh7K4zO5z6LE7alu0LMbMteU71EuYV48NWeFfPDwcDuRMReAXtH2CHl79FxYaBsGLTflxhn83I%2FJ9JrUssD0pQffv80thCByc9Lc6UHo%2BtqwBOcISD|tkp%3ABk9SR_ydqJOtYg

Of the 3 generally issued types (bullion, proof, and uncirculated or burnished), the uncirculated or burnished always has the lowest mintage (yet is not the most expensive...weird).  Easily identifiable since it has a W mint mark which is missing on the bullion coins.

The proofs have always run A FEW bucks higher on initial issuance. Why? I have NO idea.

[Reno Raines]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:38 AM, BearlyHereBear said:

Just a thought on proof sets:  Clad proof sets are not as likely to appreciate in value over time.  Most are readily available on Ebay for very modest prices.  Silver proof set hold and gain value better,

When it comes to ASE's, it's usually better to wait a bit after first released and prices drop a bit.  This does not apply to special editions (reverse proof, enhanced, privy marked, etc...) as those sell quickly and increase in cost (sometimes at a phenomenal rate).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285377196736?hash=item4271ce72c0:g:h2UAAOSwHitkrgkk&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JIU9PbRqgiNKNYX8%2B8yA78gxN9fQ2TmnLXpCIh0KQR39nsd679xX9uTAI%2FvT69s8G4HUPvAMuwNvK3SKTK5CCQppZAXHYe%2FjMQ%2FsTraaZe4mEc6U2%2FO%2FAtSQX7ddbdxoXrpOVJkPwb2pVWLOAj292FTvngdvUDVeLk%2Fo5Mw2L1c4bK6MgwJbQEr8ANh7K4zO5z6LE7alu0LMbMteU71EuYV48NWeFfPDwcDuRMReAXtH2CHl79FxYaBsGLTflxhn83I%2FJ9JrUssD0pQffv80thCByc9Lc6UHo%2BtqwBOcISD|tkp%3ABk9SR_ydqJOtYg

Of the 3 generally issued types (bullion, proof, and uncirculated or burnished), the uncirculated or burnished always has the lowest mintage (yet is not the most expensive...weird).  Easily identifiable since it has a W mint mark which is missing on the bullion coins.

My guess as to why the burnished ASE's aren't the most expensive version is because they are always the last version to enter the marketplace each year. However,if the burnished ASE program were to end that potentially could cause the demand for burnished ASE's to increase which in turn will cause their value to increase drastically especially those that have been graded NGC MS70.