1884-CC question 1 1

[Watchtower]

I recently purchased a microscope so I could get a good look at my stuff. I was checking out this Morgan dollar last night and noticed the CC looked doubled. Is this common or is it something special.

[Sandon]

    Your coin exhibits shelf-like "strike doubling" caused by a die that was loose in the press, which collectors generally don't regard as "something special."  Notice how the letters "DO" and probably others not in your photo show similar doubling.  There is an 1884-CC "doubled CC" variety (VAM 5) caused by a repunched mint mark, which shows doubling on the mint mark only and more strongly on the first "C".  You can check your Morgan dollars for varieties on the "VAM World" site at www.vamworld.com, which lists all known die varieties, or at NGC "VarietyPlus" (home page under the "Resources" tab), which lists the more popular ones that NGC will attribute.  (The 1884-CC VAM 5 isn't one of them.)

[Oldhoopster]

Sorry,  mechanical doubling. Not an error and no added value

Here is some info on the characteristics of doubling

https://www.doubleddie.com/144801.html

https://www.doubleddie.com/58222.html

[JKK]

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I see a faint shadow of an O or C that is in low relief and sandwiched between the two letters, both of which themselves clearly show mechanical doubling. I am at a loss as to how to explain how such mechanical doubling could cause the faint middle image. I'm not saying it's a Big Special Coin, just saying that this one is more reasonable to think of as worth researching than most of the standard stuff we get, where a little bit of perfunctory research could have told them it was nothing special. So congratulations to the OP on, at the very least, having picked a more promising subject than the majority of what we get. I'd like to read the explanation of how that central faint image could have gotten there, though if I understand correctly, argument #1 would be that lists of errors on this issue don't include similar pieces.

Edited November 4, 2022 by JKK
jesus, f-bombing word salad sentence

[EagleRJO]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:15 AM, Watchtower said:

I recently purchased a microscope so I could get a good look at my stuff

There are also all kinds of things you can check out with your new toy also like a strand of hair,  bugs, etc. 

I went a little nvts when I first got my scope, including being able to see all kinds of things on my coins. After that I only get it out to check specific things with coins.

[Watchtower]

This is a picture of the coin itself. I have had it for about 30 years. I'm using my new toy for all my coins. It's amazing what I can now see

[EagleRJO]

I agree it looks like machine or "shelf" doubling. The attached may help the op with confirmation, having the coin in-hand, that the doubled part of the mark and letters appears to be lower and have a shelf like appearance.

It does look like a "far date", but a VAM-5 with a doubled die CC mark is out. It's likely a VAM-10/10A which is another far date VAM from this site ... http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1884-CC_VAMs

The pics are blurry and I'm just on my phone for a few days, so I can't really tell if the toning has good color progression or pull-away, which is better to check with the coin in-hand anyway. I would check that as well as check that the variety indicators are present from VamWorld. Bottom line is I don't think it would be worth it having a TPG identify the variety.

Edited November 5, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 11/4/2022 at 2:12 PM, EagleRJO said:

I agree it looks like machine or "shelf" doubling. The attached may help you with confirmation with the coin in-hand that the doubled part of the mark and letters appears to be lower and have a shelf like appearance.

It does look like a "far date", so a VAM-5 with a doubled die CC mark is out. It's likely a VAM-10/10A from this site ... http://www.vamworld.com/wiki/1884-CC_VAMs

The pics are blurry and I'm just on my phone for a few days, so I can't really tell if the toning has good color progression or pull-away, which is better to check for with the coin in-hand anyway. I would check that as well as check that the variety indicators ate present from VamWorld. Bottom line is I don't think it would be worth it having a TPG identify the variety.

I am constantly amazed at the nearly inexhaustible supply of people for whom this graphic above is new knowledge. It clearly is due to the thousands of people “marketing” the idea and the concept of “double die” (not correct) while utterly disinforming   their “marks” about what doubled die coins are and are not. Well… at least they got some clicks and subscriptions, and as we all know, that’s what really matters anymore. / eyeroll from h-e-double hockey sticks. My advice is to return the high magnification microscope if you still can, and never order another one. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by VKurtB

[Greenstang]

And that photo is not completely accurate.
On the MD, it gives the appearance of the lower portion being curved when it should be straight down like a true step.

[Watchtower]

Thank you guys for the information. I can already tell that people here are very knowledgeable and willing to be helpful. I have lots of coins and I look forward to sharing them.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:22 PM, VKurtB said:

I am constantly amazed at the nearly inexhaustible supply of people for whom this graphic above is new knowledge ...  return the high magnification microscope if you still can, and never order another one. 

There is a thread discussing having a sticky topic, maybe with the NGC Glossary, a link to Sandon's "resources" thread, and a few infographics like the doubled die one. Also, I do still use my scope occasionally to check hard to see markers and toning.

On 11/4/2022 at 4:34 PM, Greenstang said:

And that photo is not completely accurate ... it should be straight down like a true step.

I agree it looks a little curved, but at least it does label it as a "step". It is the best one I have found for MD vs DD, but I'm hesitant to do a photoshop correction since it's a credited infographic, and MD may actually leave somewhat of a sloped appearance on coins at the base of the "shelf" from movement of dies as a coin is struck.

Edited November 5, 2022 by EagleRJO

[EagleRJO]

@WatchtowerI would also recommend reviewing the following thread which discusses additional coin resources ... https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/428817-resources-for-new-collectors/#comment-9817530

 

 

[VKurtB]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:41 PM, EagleRJO said:

There is a thread discussing having a sticky topic, maybe with the NGC Glossary, a link to Sandon's "resources" thread, and a few infographics like the doubled die one. Also, I do still use my scope occasionally to check hard to see markers and toning.

I agree it looks a little curved, but at least it does label it as a "step". It is the best one I have found for MD vs DD, but I'm hesitant to do a photoshop correction since it's a credited infographic.

I do have an optical (not digital) stereo microscope too, but its MAXIMUM magnification is 30x. The magnification I use MOST is 3.5x to sometimes 5x. It also has a third photo optical path, where I can attach an SLR camera, mirrored or not, film or digital. I studied what sort of scope to get for over three years, and this 3.5-30x Amscope item is THE recommended one for numismatic use. (Plus circuit boards, minerals, and stamps.) The rush to grab maximum magnification will only lead numismatic customers to waste their time on things that do not matter. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/4/2022 at 6:19 PM, VKurtB said:

The rush to grab maximum magnification will only lead numismatic customers to waste their time on things that do not matter. 

Just an FYI per Rod Gillis from ANA for grading you are suppose to initially just look at both sides of a coin using good lighting and no magnification to assess an initial grade, and then use a 5x to 10x magnification to check that as well as possible impairment. And then only use further magnification (e.g 30x to 40x) to check markers, possible rub marks from color changes, toning, etc.

I think that approach makes sense (naturally with Rod) as you are really training yourself to asses a grade just looking at a coin. Similar approach with pics of a coin and not zooming in initially, although you are supposed to have multiple pics at different angles.

[Standby]

I listened to your responses and most of them were very helpful. Thank you.

I didn't think much about it until I started looking at other coins I have and was reading up on VAM's. I'm trying to educate myself.

I took some other images of this coin. I want to show you more because I've never seen anything like it. Initially I focused on the CC when I posted. I set the coin aside and read everyone's post.

There is something in the first C. It looks curved. Like an O but I am not saying it's an O.

Here are other images just for kicks or possibly more information. Honestly I could take another dozen images as it's all over the reverse of this coin. I could take several more. I don't think anything on the reverse does not have this effect.

[JKK]

I see very clear mechanical doubling. What remains curious to me is the middle C ghost shape between the CC. I don't know how to interpret that, whether it could be part of the MD, or what.

[Standby]

I took the coin out from the holder which I rarely do. I used a light to try to capture it better. I can see it clearly. It looks like part of an O. Why would that be there?

I also took a couple of images of the obverse. I saw a couple of things there too. Just sharing and learning.

Is machine doubling usually this strong? Some of the letters almost look like tripling. If you look inside the o in God you can easily see it.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Standby

[JKK]

Mechanical doubling is often that strong. One should bear in mind that the blown-up photos that enable us to see it so clearly also tend to make it look very prominent. I see it on one of the stars and on the MM. My only question is how that shadowy C got there.

[Standby]

I know it's not a scratch. I can see it really clearly using a light. It's difficult to get a picture of. I'm just curious, after reading and learning a little about MD shouldn't there be many others like it? Would it be considered some type of VAM?

Edited November 7, 2022 by Standby

[EagleRJO]

As indicated before, go to the VamWorld site for an 1884-CC Morgan and first try to find a match based on the descriptions. Particularly with the date and mark

It looks like a "Far Date", meaning it is set further right than the typ date. Check this by counting the number of denticles on the rim from the neck point going right to see where the lower left part of the "1" lines up radially with a denticle, and compare with the VAM examples. Next look for a match with the Mint mark, which looks a little "tilted left".

If those are a match then check the other indicators for that VAM. It looks like a VAM-10/10A but check that. If not, start looking at other VAM's. Also, the chunk in the left "C" of the mark may just be a die chip, which leaves a raised area on the struck coin. If the die was worn resulting in some of that MD a chipped die would seem consistent.

Edited November 7, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Standby]

Thank you for your help and time, it has been very resourceful and educational.