Submitted - MS68.5 vs mine. & off topic updated 1 1

[Harry’s Collection]

No just 2!  Please reread the revised OP.  This is weird.

[Harry’s Collection]

You have never saved any of the photos of these coins in 2x2’s?  Or have a photo of these rolls?  Like if they’re in a safety deposit box, wouldn’t u at least take a photo of the contents, for insurance purposes?  But I sold most of them, takes a million years to go thru one by one.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Harry’s Collection

[Harry’s Collection]

I’m sorry I must of not read your post clearly.  Or I read someone else’s very similar that was deleted 

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:12 PM, VKurtB said:

Sounds like you sent in a bunch of coins. Yes or no?

 

On 10/31/2022 at 11:17 PM, VKurtB said:

I have at least 20 boxes of solid date rolls, slightly more than half in cents. 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 4:12 PM, VKurtB said:

Can we at least agree that roll end toning is a different breed of cat? Completely unlike classic canvas bag toning. 

 

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:25 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

You have never saved any of the photos of these coins in 2x2’s?  Or have a photo of these rolls?  Like if they’re in a safety deposit box, wouldn’t u at least take a photo of the contents, for insurance purposes?  But I sold most of them, takes a million years to go thru one by one.  

No, I have no “keeper” photographs of ANYTHING, aside from some Kodachrome slides I took in the 70’s and 80’s. 

[Harry’s Collection]

First, I am new to the UI/UX of the NGC forum layout, so I apologize if I don’t reply back to the correct person question or make duplicate replies.

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:36 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

First, I am new to the UI/UX of the NGC forum layout, so I apologize if I don’t reply back to the correct person question or make duplicate replies.

It will come quickly. No worries. 

[VKurtB]

Including my world/foreign stuff, I must have about 50,000+ coins in 2x2’s. Why would anyone want to photograph them all?

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:40 PM, VKurtB said:

These photos are worse. Now, regarding roll end toning, this happens when a roll of coins is put away literally for decades. It happens MOSTLY to silver coins but not exclusively. I’ve seen it on a roll of BU 1929-D nickels. The edges of all the coins are toned dark, as are ONE side of the first and last coins in the roll. The remaining coins’ obverses and reverses are relatively toning free except for the edges. Those dark sides, of the first and last coins, tone a more uniform color than in “bag toning” which often has rainbows due to the dichroic effect. (Look it up.) The roll end toning comes from decades of intimate contact with high sulfur paper used in older coin rolls. 

Just saw this, we agree on Enders, but as I had posted a 23 yr old ender, obviously early stages as yellow is typical the first color progression aka target toning, but coin albums do this too usually, but not always.

but, maybe it wasn’t you but I think you said the Morgan looks like an ender, which doesn’t coincide with what you posted in this comment, but I posted an ender.  So again, how is the 1885 anything like an ender when there is no “Ring”?

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:43 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

Just saw this, we agree on Enders, but as I had posted a 23 yr old ender, obviously early stages as yellow is typical the first color progression aka target toning, but coin albums do this too usually, but not always.

but, maybe it wasn’t you but I think you said the Morgan looks like an ender, which doesn’t coincide with what you posted in this comment, but I posted an ender.  So again, how is the 1885 anything like an ender when there is no “Ring”?

Goodness my, YES!!!! Old Morgan dollar rolls did not have rolled ends like modern rolls do, that create the ring. They had folded over paper ends that toned the whole coin on the side facing the paper!

[Harry’s Collection]

The 1886?  Or 1885?  What’s ur grade #.  I’ll telL what 4x coin dealers told me at a coin show during the summer.  I just literally shoved in their face & did not give them much time.  I wanted their initial reaction.  Then, I let them look at it some more & they didn’t change their grade gues

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:50 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

The 1886?  Or 1885?  What’s ur grade #.  I’ll telL what 4x coin dealers told me at a coin show during the summer.  I just literally shoved in their face & did not give them much time.  I wanted their initial reaction.  Then, I let them look at it some more & they didn’t change their grade gues

I am EXTREMELY reluctant to offer grade opinions based on photos. It’s not a good practice. When I grade a coin, I want correct lighting (darkened room with a single 100W incandescent bulb in a small fixture) and I need to “swirl” the coin so that I can see how the highlights rotate around the coin’s surface, or that they don’t. Also, my experience at NGC’s grading contest has shown me that I am a terrible undergrader. I had a large cent to grade that was actually an MS68 that I had at MS64. You REALLY don’t want my opinion. That said, many of the members on here are even far worse undergraders than I am, especially some of the bigwigs. Bottom line: too many ways to screw up using photos, in the Mint State range. Want opinions from photos on well circulated coins? Easy Peazy, lemon squeezee. But on MS coins? No thank you. 

[J P M]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:00 AM, VKurtB said:

I am EXTREMELY reluctant to offer grade opinions based on photos. It’s not a good practice. When I grade a coin, I want correct lighting (darkened room with a single 100W incandescent bulb in a small fixture) and I need to “swirl” the coin so that I can see how the highlights rotate around the coin’s surface, or that they don’t. Also, my experience at NGC’s grading contest has shown me that I am a terrible undergrader. I had a large cent to grade that was actually an MS68 that I had at MS64. You REALLY don’t want my opinion. That said, many of the members on here are even far worse undergraders than I am, especially some of the bigwigs. Bottom line: too many ways to screw up using photos, in the Mint State range. Want opinions from photos on well circulated coins? Easy Peazy, lemon squeezee. But on MS coins? No thank you. 

Don't cut yourself short VKurtB you do a fine job of grading. I think copper coins are the hardest coin to grade. Most of your comments are deadnuts with what we have to work with online. Harry, I want to say that every Numismatic I ever met is way fussy that is why you will not get just a MS answer when you ask. It must be explained why that number came up that way, so you will know the reasoning for the answer. Then you can go back and look at the area in question. That is how we learn to be better at grading. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2022 at 7:42 AM, J P M said:

Don't cut yourself short VKurtB you do a fine job of grading. I think copper coins are the hardest coin to grade. Most of your comments are deadnuts with what we have to work with online. Harry, I want to say that every Numismatic I ever met is way fussy that is why you will not get just a MS answer when you ask. It must be explained why that number came up that way, so you will know the reasoning for the answer. Then you can go back and look at the area in question. That is how we learn to be better at grading. 

Thank you for your (undeserved?) confidence, but I know how far I’ve come and how far I have still to go. I plan to try to address some of that by taking another course this January at FUN. The ANA is running an intermediate course on grading before FUN opens. 

[Oldhoopster]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:00 AM, VKurtB said:

I am EXTREMELY reluctant to offer grade opinions based on photos. It’s not a good practice. When I grade a coin, I want correct lighting (darkened room with a single 100W incandescent bulb in a small fixture) and I need to “swirl” the coin so that I can see how the highlights rotate around the coin’s surface, or that they don’t. Also, my experience at NGC’s grading contest has shown me that I am a terrible undergrader. I had a large cent to grade that was actually an MS68 that I had at MS64. You REALLY don’t want my opinion. That said, many of the members on here are even far worse undergraders than I am, especially some of the bigwigs. Bottom line: too many ways to screw up using photos, in the Mint State range. Want opinions from photos on well circulated coins? Easy Peazy, lemon squeezee. But on MS coins? No thank you. 

Sometimes, the best thing is when you begin to understand what you don't know.  The more I learn on the chat boards, the more I realize I need to learn more.  Even after 50+ Years of active collecting and 200+ research books, whenever I start thinking I know a lot, something pops up and I have to dig in a do some research.

BTW , did anybody ever answer what a MS68.5 is in the title?  Last I checked, the major TPGs don't use decimals.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:45 PM, Oldhoopster said:

BTW , did anybody ever answer what a MS68.5 is in the title?  Last I checked, the major TPGs don't use decimals.

Short answer, No!  The allusion to PCGS is an illusion.  Maybe the traditional scale hss been dispensed with or superseded by newfangled decimals.. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:00 AM, VKurtB said:

....When I grade a coin, I want correct lighting (darkened room with a single 100W incandescent bulb in a small fixture) ....

small fixture... what in tarnation...?  Ceiling? negative!  Table lamp?  negative!  Wall sconce?  negative!  Pedestal floor lamp?  negative!  I give up.  This is new numisma-speak for what, exactly?

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:36 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

small fixture... what in tarnation...?

Swing arm desk lamp. I would consider that a "small fixture" and it's what I use. 😉

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:01 PM, EagleRJO said:

Swing arm desk lamp. I would consider that a "small fixture" and it's what I use. 😉

A garden-variety desk lamp?  Sheesh!  [Pardon me while I trash my short, squat, stationary table lamp.  No wonder I can't grade!]  

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:05 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Pardon me while I trash my short, squat, stationary table lamp

I would immediately trash that stationary light as you can't adjust the lighting to different angles or bring it in close for loupe inspections (unless you have an LED lit loupe, but it's still not the same). Now I understand why you can't grade. [duck] 😜 

https://www.pcgs.com/news/tools-of-a-professional-coin-grader

Btw, isn't there a big controversy over grading light standards and switching to LED bulbs for energy efficiency, or is that a done deal?

Edited November 1, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:01 PM, EagleRJO said:

Swing arm desk lamp. I would consider that a "small fixture" and it's what I use. 😉

And an excellent choice, with the right bulb. 

[VKurtB]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:12 PM, EagleRJO said:

I would immediately trash that stationary light as you can't adjust the lighting to different angles or bring it in close for loupe inspections (unless you have an LED lit loupe, but it's still not the same). Now I understand why you can't grade. [duck] 😜 

https://www.pcgs.com/news/tools-of-a-professional-coin-grader

Btw, isn't there a big controversy over grading light standards and switching to LED bulbs for energy efficiency, or is that a done deal?

I had never read that PCGS article, but I agree with every word. I personally like the 100W, but I might need to accept the 75W alternative for legal reasons. I don’t live in a place where there is a store that sells bulbs marked, “Not for sale or use in the USA.” This is the Deep South. We don’t have “bootleg sources” other than for alcoholic beverages. 

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:39 PM, VKurtB said:

This is the Deep South. We don’t have “bootleg sources” other than for alcoholic beverages.

Well at least you have one out of 2 down. 😉

I just usually get regular 75W GE bulbs and I just looked and it is LED. I think you can still get 75W/100W incandescent rough service bulbs and I see them on Amazon. That's all we used on job sites a while back, but they are more expensive.

Edited November 2, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Hoghead515]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:39 PM, VKurtB said:

I had never read that PCGS article, but I agree with every word. I personally like the 100W, but I might need to accept the 75W alternative for legal reasons. I don’t live in a place where there is a store that sells bulbs marked, “Not for sale or use in the USA.” This is the Deep South. We don’t have “bootleg sources” other than for alcoholic beverages. 

My mamaw was a bootlegger. No light bulbs tho. Just the alcoholic beverages. Ill confirm @VKurtBstatement. Dont know where youd have to go to find those. 

[EagleRJO]

If I buy these 75W incandescent ones on Amazon will Energy Dept Agents with armored tactical gear and full-auto HK416's rope in at 2 am to confiscate my light bulbs? My measly 12 gauge semi-auto with 00 buck would be no match for that! 😜 

Edited November 2, 2022 by EagleRJO

[J P M]

On 11/1/2022 at 7:21 PM, EagleRJO said:

If I buy these 75W incandescent ones on Amazon will Energy Dept Agents with armored tactical gear and full-auto HK416's  rope in at 2 am to confiscate my light bulbs? My measly 12 gauge semi-auto with 00 buck would be no match for that! 😜 

I think you are allowed to have them ,You just cant use them.

[EagleRJO]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:00 PM, J P M said:

I think you are allowed to have them ,You just cant use them.

That has got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I can buy them but I can't use them? Who thought up that winner?

And did they change the standards to LED?

[Henri Charriere]

I was just getting ready to object to the use of the word "bootleg," primarily because (and I may be wrong) incandescent bulbs, I believe, are no longer being made in the United States, but I took another look at my 4-pack which is a dead-ringer for the one in the photo provided by @EagleRJOand I'll be [expletive deleted] if the sticker on it doesn't read:  "[store name]" and the price, "$2.79 + tax."  Identical packaging and color, but bi-lingual Spanish/English labelling, including: "Not for Sale for Use in the USA," and "Made in Hungary."  That's a quantum leap in price, being 4x more through Amazon, but I would be curious to know the country of origin.  Then again, maybe your bootlegs are better than mine.    

[EagleRJO]

You know, I bought this tea in China ...

[Just Bob]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:39 PM, VKurtB said:

 I don’t live in a place where there is a store that sells bulbs marked, “Not for sale or use in the USA.” This is the Deep South. We don’t have “bootleg sources” other than for alcoholic beverages. 

We do have salvage stores, though,  and sometimes one can still find incandescent bulbs there.