Submitted - MS68.5 vs mine. & off topic updated 1 1

[Harry’s Collection]

Okay FINALLY UPDATE FROM NGC!  Good and Bad - see the last 2’pifab

First I’m self taught but I have extensive knowlege like any of do in certain coins, but my lingo isn’t the best & we can all agree many aspects carry over to any denom, but Morgan’s are the toughest in my opinion due to so many Vams, the endless types of dies & mix matching obverse with reverse and some years and mints had more craftsmanship & so on and so on.

*NOW what we have all been waiting for…. Here are the photos sent to me from NGC, but I’m requesting more on the 1942 dime, I didn’t get a close up magnified on the date or mint mark & Variety Vista is using a far stronger magnified image.  But the problem is my dime is not the typical FS101, but instead a different DDO & there are there isn’t in depth detail of it.  *Side note I feel there seem more variations of the 1942/1 - D to be discovered.  After all it want till 1975 it was officially recognized. So TPG WERE wrong for decades & so I’m trying to prove my point is a new one A future update on that.

But here is the 1885 photo, but they feel the toning is questionable, probably bc it’s just perfect, however one of the leading experts authors/contributors of the RED BOOK was introduced to me a last week from a mutual friend & he said the 1885 toning is 100% genuine & gave a 5 min explanation & so I’ll have him be in touch with NGC this week. The photos are near the bottom.

So check it out,also NGC HAS MADE ME HAPPY or I am happy since the redbook guy will be seeing them this week probably & can confirm the toning as he said that is the best coin to submit if my colllection.  Also the manager is a good person but the website didn’t explain my questions so not my fault or hers

*When I say 67+ or 68+, it’s habit because that is what PCGS uses unlike NGC 68* or 67*  or when I say 68.5 that’s a habit from my previous career -where we used decimals (non numismatics - also I like to use hyphens, Ex “have a look at this XYZ coin 65.5 - it’s BU, vs have a look at this 65 + - it’s BU, with a + & - one could get confused, so in my main career where I was in charge of a lot of money (millions/billions of cash) it became a habit.

(If anyone has experience with Prescreens PLEASE private message me)

10/31/22 Revised again: My 1942/1-D - FB & 1885 Morgan seem to be in Limbo.  I hope I’m wrong.  So I will reply back in due time, no sense of talking about coins when things don’t look good, no one is communicating with me except customer reps, and their tone of voice sounds bleak.  BUT, I’m probably being paranoid.

*Revised:  Please be respectful.  Please just give a numerical value that’s all.  *No one wants to scroll thru a forum because someone wants to rant rant about whatever and not even give a number.   I’m adding another photo when it when it was in my hand so you can see it’s not some fake photo.  **Sadly, I’m having a bad feeling that my coin is missing.  Something isn’t right…. For a walkthrough that was received over a week ago, this is taking too long.  4 customer reps confirmed the coin was opened on March 21st.  Though it was never updated into the system as “received”.   Tracking # confirms it was signature delivered the day prior.  Again, walkthrough & opened (48 hour turnaround + 5 days for Variety+).  7 days go by (5 business days) & they finally updated as received in the 28th.  Today I called again, I asked to update my Vam #, relooking at my photos.  The agent said the form hasn’t been submitted & he nothing he could do about it until it’s handed in.  He then told me, looking at my Acct notes  the receiving manager has been instructed to email/call me today.  I’ve checked my spam folder, NOPE.   So I’m hopeful she is so busy or has an emergency family matter such as I do, my father has prostate cancer so I can’t reply back to all of you.  I’m praying  my coin grades high because I want to fulfill his bucket list (I sent in a 1942/1 - D FB - SUPER GEM.   (75 yr old man - my hero)  Okay fine some more pics of the Morgan.  Now, for those who think I’m being over optimistic about the Morgan’s grade, I’m quoting the receiving manager when she called me on Oct 21 “Hello, so I got your package & noticed your declared value….  She left it at that we spoke about something else”

The following Monday I noticed my status still said “Not received”?  So call back, the rep talks to the manager & tells me “The manager said due to the high value of your coins she sent them in prescreen”   *I don’t qualify for prescreen & we didn’t talk about that at all on the 21st.  I called again on Thursday 27th, the rep was like “What?!? I know we’re backed up, but this taking way too long for it to be not in the system at all & reading your notes about her sending it into prescreen.  *Again, I don’t qualify nor want that service, I wanted the coin back asap & try to make it to the Baltimore show & if wasn’t happy with grade, I was gonna do on-site with PCGS.  Today is the 31st, called again as I stated above “expect an email/call from her”… Nothing.  
So let’s forget about this grade guess post, because I’m worried it’s unaccounted for.  But I pray to God, that the manager is dealing with a family matter like myself (dad has cancer) & I prayed earlier today for his health and for this manager (I assume she is dealing with a family emergency), that’s the only logical explanation.   Or it’s lost & we will never know the grade & l I won’t be able to pay for a 24/7 nurse for my dad - Medicaid isn’t enough.

 

(I’ve stated this before but people don’t read.  I’ve taken this coin to a couple coin shows, unsure to submit to PCGS or NGC & didn’t do so until I felt like I was certain of the Vam.  Out 7 reputable dealers, MS67.5 (but that guy wanted to buy it).  Another dealer with 30+ years, showed me 2x of his highest graded PCGS coins, turned out they were 1885-O, his response was “I’m jealous, & you HAVE to get that graded.”  Another dealer spent 45 mins staring at, he just said, Incredible, just incredible”

Now again, the post gets bogged down as ppl scroll thru if you ppl continue to chime in blah blah.  Just give a number & post your coin, who cares what denom it is.  I’m done trying to teach others who have made some amateur comments, like the guy who said “Artificial toning because the toning is evenly distributed (see my purple quarter post)  or the other guy that said only one side is toned & not the other so it’s artificial - I feel sorry for that guy.

*The goal is for others to share their pics too, so when you get a recently submitted MS64 & John Doe gets a MS66 & your both taking photos in ambient sunlight in your car with NO color enhancing, then us members can see why John Doe got a MS66 perhaps or vice versa.  Thank you.

Also, don’t even give your explanation for why you think it’s whatever grade # it bogs down the flow of the post.  Also, if you want to help or want to see more of my collection, a little encouragement helps such as posting your own photos & EVEN better photograph slabbed coins (RECENT SUBMISSIONS).  Please do not post old serial # slabs, because those graders could be retired & todays grading assessment is probably going to get much different results.  *Lets live in the present not in the past.
—————————————

Hello all, I recently submitted a monster coin last week & am waiting for the results, can’t wait!  Please comment your grade guess.  The coin is business strike, fyi.

 

I’ve created a side by side comparison of PCGS’ top pop 68.5, on the left. *Disregard the “long scratches” on the obverse in the left field (right if your looking at the coin directly), these are from the plastic coin capsule when I took the photo.

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Harry’s Collection
Update pics, grammar & request for Prescreen info

[J P M]

Good luck. I think TPG are reluctant to give out high grades on certain coins like Nickels and Morgan's, to much controversy

[JT2]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:13 AM, Harry’s Collection said:

this is a Vam 32 in my assessment.

HUMMM I dont see it can you point it out?  i am looking for the 885 in the denticles?  also do not see the doubling of the bow.  just my opinion i am not an expert

[J P M]

You may get a 66 it looks like it is in nice shape but the toning has me worried it looks so perfect. 

[RWB]

MS-66, retoned. Neither coin in the original post is "MS-68"

Edited October 28, 2022 by RWB

[Just Bob]

Welcome to the forum.

It will be necessary to see a close-up of the reverse, as well as the obverse, in order to offer an opinion on the grade. And, even then, the best we can do from pictures taken through plastic with only one angle of lighting is give a guess. But, we do it all the time anyway. 

[Coinbuf]

AU details questionable color is what I see, I hope I'm wrong.   Please come back and update with a photo of the slab once you get it back, always nice to see the results.

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:55 AM, J P M said:

Good luck. I think TPG are reluctant to give out high grades on certain coins like Nickels and Morgan's, to much controversy

Well, I do agree with that general statement as I am was being incredibly optimistic, haha.  What would you grade the coin in your honest fair opinion? Another photo..  do note there appears to be a scratch  on Liberty’s upper check & chin, but comparing it to the top pop, I’m positive it is the Vam, this is a Vam 32 in my assessment.

[Harry’s Collection]

I’ll just say this, I was at coin show and ask a dealer at his booth to show me his top graded coins he had on him.  He showed me 2x 1885-O’s that were 67.5 via PCGS & he was jealous of this coin.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Harry’s Collection

[Harry’s Collection]

I guess my photography skills are not that great or our smartphones/monitors project different imagery.  Sorry to disappoint everyone.  

Edited October 28, 2022 by Harry’s Collection

[RWB]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:16 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’ll just say this, I was at coin show and ask a dealer at his booth to show me his top graded coins he had on him.  He showed me 2x 1885-O’s that were 67.5 via PCGS & he was jealous of this coin.

The test of a dealer is an offer of money. They will say anything and admire anything until challenged to make an offer consistent with the coins they are selling.

[AdamWL]

68.5? Since when do we have half grades? 

 

Edit: Is that another way of saying 68+?

Edited October 28, 2022 by AdamWL

[EagleRJO]

On 10/28/2022 at 1:12 PM, Coinbuf said:

AU details questionable color is what I see, I hope I'm wrong.

I might agree as the appearance is off, particularly the obverse with an unusual color [blotchy without color progression, pull away or consistency] indicative of AT, and a granular like surface usually indicative of cleaning or polishing. There also appear to be some areas with color changes which may be rub marks and the obverse seems to also have what appears to be bag marks on the chin which is a no-go for higher grades (Morgans need a clean face/neck for higher grades) if it does make an MS grade even with that appearance. I hope I am wrong also and maybe it is just the photos.

I also would not make decisions on what dealers are saying, and by 68.5 I assume he means a 68+

Edited October 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Coinbuf]

On 10/28/2022 at 11:22 AM, Harry’s Collection said:

I guess my photography skills are not that great or our smartphones/monitors project different imagery.  Sorry to disappoint everyone.  

Don't be sorry, remember that we are really grading a photo vs the actual coin.    Some coin photos are easier than others and photos of toned coins are sometimes very tough, let me expound on my guess.   

1) The surfaces, the surface of your coin looks to have been dipped in the past.   That is not in itself something that will disqualify a coin from a high grade, but it usually limits the coin to MS67.   Notice that the PCGS coin you used as your example has a creamy frosty look, full mint bloom is evident on that coin and it is entirely possible (tho not impossible) that it has never been dipped.   Your coin is nice and bright (especially the rev) but the surface doesn't have that buttery smooth look that virgin surfaces should have.

2) The strike is full, nice almost full cheek, hair lines, and breast feathers, however when I look at the cheek, the top of the cap, and the leaves there sems to be the hint of color change which could be signs of the slightest friction.   This is one area where a static photo and the toning make it difficult to assess if these are areas that did not fully strike up, hints of slight friction, or just how the coin and tone make it look, at least to my eye.   Without being able to view the coin as it rotates under a proper light source I went with the conservative approach with my AU call.

3) and lastly the color, this color looks too even and uniform which is a look that is easier to create and almost always makes me think AT.   Also if you look at the stars and date on the PCGS example, you see how the tone is not right up to and over those design elements.   There is what is called a "pull away" effect where the tone is slightly separated from the stars and numbers.   It may just be the photo but I'm not really seeing that on your coin, it seems that the tone on your coin goes right up and over all the design elements.   When I see that I tend to think AT is possible, I have never seen or heard of anyone that has been able to duplicate that pull away look on an AT'd coin.

In summary when I look at your photos of your coin the tone looks suspicious to me and there are some signs that point to possible friction points, I might have a totally different opinion if I had the coin in hand under proper lighting.   As such I hope that I'm just being too critical and that it straight grades for you, and I hope that you will stop back and update once you have the grading result.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Coinbuf

[EagleRJO]

To me the surfaces, particularly the obverse, appear to have a very grainy or granular appearance which is often an indication of some type of cleaning or polishing in the past. Sometimes AT is used to try and cover that up which may be what happened to the obverse where both of those things may have been overdone.

I hope it is just difficult to photograph conditions, where flow lines sometimes produce a similar appearance in some pics, and it looks different in-hand so it works out for you. And please do post the grading results since it is always educational to have that kind of feedback and to see how things worked out. 😉

Edited October 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:16 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

He showed me 2x 1885-O’s that were 67.5 via PCGS & he was jealous of this coin.

You mean 66+  ??

I've never seen grades with decimals on a label though I've seen "experts" use them for certain special coins, which I thought was a waste.

Edited October 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

On 10/28/2022 at 2:16 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

 He showed me 2x 1885-O’s that were 67.5 via PCGS & he was jealous of this coin.

Yea he meant 67+ with PCGS slabs. In addition to taking what dealers are saying with a grain of salt, as they are not likely to make a sale if they are critical of a coin someone has, also keep in mind some get blinded or fixated with the toning on coins as they are the latest craze.

This can result in a failure to look closely at other things that may not be so readily apparent with or because of the toning. Like the very granular appearance, off color with no progression, possible AU slider grade rub marks and bag marks on the face. Again, I hope it's just hard to photograph conditions and it works out. Let us know.

Edited October 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

🐓:  I'm stuck on the reference to "the 885 in the denticles." What's your take, Q?

Q.A.: A lot of delectable morsels to chew on, but the characterization of surface quality as "grainy" or "granular" seals the deal for me.  The entire matter can be disposed of with a quick optical survey by @VKurtB.  He's on record as saying, where metal is concerned, that is his primary area of interest. Me?  I won't hazard a guess. I wouldn't want "speculator" added to the list of epithets hurled at me.        

[EagleRJO]

On 10/29/2022 at 4:22 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I won't hazard a guess. I wouldn't want "speculator" added to the list of epithets hurled at me.

We are talking about trying to assess the actual appearance and condition of a coin from one photograph of each side without the coin in-hand, which I would say is part "speculation" to begin with. 😉

Edited October 29, 2022 by EagleRJO

[VKurtB]

Despite Quintus’ kind invitation to opine on this coin, I’ll take a pass. 
1) I really don’t care for Morgan dollars generally, as a series.

2) I REALLY don’t care about VAM’s even a tiny little bit. 

3) Trying to grade from a single photo taken with unknown lighting? Wow, you haven’t been listening to my diatribes much at all. 
 

4) I like the lack of nicks and dings on the coin in question, but not the toning. It’s just “wrong” EXCEPT for the fact it’s only on one side. Most artificial toning jobs end up two-sided. 
 

5) There is one possible reason for this toning to be totally legit, but I’d need to see the edges. If they are darkly toned, this coin COULD BE exhibiting “roll end toning”. 1885 Philly is a date found in very high condition rather commonly, and one of the more common dates in original solid date rolls. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

🐓 :  Kurt said, "most artificial toning jobs end up two-sided."

Q.A.:  That observation alone is worth the price of admission!  I didn't know that, did you?  Thanks, Kurt, for keeping the conversation going for the benefit of a new member. I appreciate the input!  

[EagleRJO]

On 10/29/2022 at 5:22 PM, VKurtB said:

I like the lack of nicks and dings on the coin in question, but not the toning. It’s just “wrong” EXCEPT for the fact it’s only on one side. Most artificial toning jobs end up two-sided.

Agreed that the toning is off. However, just toning on one side isn't really an indicator of legit toning anymore. The people who use AT to hide issues with coins or artificially improve the visual appearance and value have wised up to that flag and it is often on just the obverse lately.

There is an ANA eLearning video with Michael Fey PhD, a well know expert on Morgans and author of Top 100 Morgan VAMs as well as the Virtual Guide to Pricing Morgan Silver Dollars, that discusses this one-sided AT toning with examples (see attached for one) that I watched a while ago when I started my complete Morgan collection. I would recommend the video for anyone considering buying Morgans as it also discusses grading, varieties, values and common issues with Morgans.

Edited October 30, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:22 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

🐓:  I'm stuck on the reference to "the 885 in the denticles." What's your take, Q?

Q.A.: A lot of delectable morsels to chew on, but the characterization of surface quality as "grainy" or "granular" seals the deal for me.  The entire matter can be disposed of with a quick optical survey by @VKurtB.  He's on record as saying, where metal is concerned, that is his primary area of interest. Me?  I won't hazard a guess. I wouldn't want "speculator" added to the list of epithets hurled at me.        

As for those wanting to see the denticles of Vam 32, check out Google, apparently this is a super rare vam.

Anyways, I don’t have the coin right now as it is currently at NGC.  But this is what I can provide without spending too much time looking at my 1,000’a of photos & I get lost & confused.  I really hate how iPhone photo albums seem to play around with the dates of photos , I’d you own an iPhone, you understand.  Disclaimer, when I first got this coin long ago, with a 5x loupe the 8,8,5 in the denticles we’re one of the first things I noticed.  *But I don’t have time to sift their my 25,000+ camera roll to find that one upclose shot, will do so when the coin comes back slabbed I fan you guys wish.  But this is what I can provide (4.8mb is the size limit for uploads). Also, I had over expose this photo to help see it.  It is angled so it won’t look exactly like the reference online.

*keep in mind vamworld says this is a ultra rare one, so there could be like 32b or whatever, I recall finding more numbers in the denticles when I first found it.

[Harry’s Collection]

I’m not gonna respond back to many of others comments…. Rather not say anymore until it gets graded.

I will say, some comments are…“helpful”

Okay, next coin.   How about this one…. I’ll continue to post more of my coins..  But for now on, I will update only obverses, later on reverses in a random order.  This way people won’t become bias on the rarity of the year/mint.  However some years will be obvious, such as 1921.

*For now on, I’ll be taking photos of coins in my car in ambient sunlight so we can all have an idea of lighting, not direct, unless I state using a specific light bulb etc.  what is your grade.  *Again, for is one ambient sunlight around 2-5 pm.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Harry’s Collection

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:27 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

 

Our comments "...helpful..."? If you say so. Thanks!  Your photo?  Not so much.  Sorry!

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:27 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

As for those wanting to see the denticles of Vam 32, check out Google, apparently this is a super rare vam.

*keep in mind vamworld says this is a ultra rare one, so there could be like 32b or whatever, I recall finding more numbers in the denticles when I first found it.

🐓:  What I see is a rather common case of gingivitis [and receding gums] but what do I know. I'm not a doctor.

Q.A.:  I am willing to give the gentleman the benefit of a doubt in lieu of a formal diagnosis which is pending.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/28/2022 at 8:55 AM, J P M said:

Good luck. I think TPG are reluctant to give out high grades on certain coins like Nickels and Morgan's, to much controversy

They're certainly aware of where the "kinks" and inflection points are for pricing.  And they're wary of increasing their population numbers, esp. when they haven't changed much in years.

Should have nothing to do with grading a coin before you, but you know it's there -- especially in the minds of veteran or senior graders.

[J P M]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:29 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’m not gonna respond back to many of others comments…. Rather not say anymore until it gets graded.

I will say, some comments are…“helpful”

Okay, next coin.   How about this one…. I’ll continue to post more of my coins..  But for now on, I will update only obverses, later on reverses in a random order.  This way people won’t become bias on the rarity of the year/mint.  However some years will be obvious, such as 1921.

*For now on, I’ll be taking photos of coins in my car in ambient sunlight so we can all have an idea of lighting, not direct, unless I state using a specific light bulb etc.  what is your grade.  *Again, for is one ambient sunlight around 2-5 pm.

It would be hard to give a realistic grade without seeing both sides of the coin. You can have a great cheek but a bad bird so it will change the grade of the coin. Again the tone looks to be questionable to cover something like cleaning and dings ?

[EagleRJO]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:29 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’m not gonna respond back to many of others comments …. Rather not say anymore until it gets graded. I will say, some comments are…“helpful”

People are taking the time to look at the coins you have posted and give you their honest opinions. Naturally they will vary as grading from just photos is very subjective. But I guess if it doesn't align with your perception that the 1885 it's a "monster" coin comparable with the "top pop 68.5" it's not worthy of a response on your assessment of the issues raised having had the coin in-hand, and some that think it may be a re-toned mid MS grade are the only ones that are ... "helpful". Even an MS-67+ is extremely rare for Morgans and the TPG's don't hand them out like cupcakes.

Also, I don't see any of the classic indicators that the 1885 is a VAM-32, where you should be going to VamWorld for comparisons and not Google, and I agree with JPM's comments on the 1886. Add to that the grainy or granular appearance of surfaces again and heavy hits or bag marks on the face and elsewhere. Did you get both of these coins from the same source?

Edited October 31, 2022 by EagleRJO

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:36 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They're certainly aware of where the "kinks" and inflection points are for pricing.  And they're wary of increasing their population numbers, esp. when they haven't changed much in years.

Should have nothing to do with grading a coin before you, but you know it's there -- especially in the minds of veteran or senior graders.

Very troubling comments which I cannot refute.  The recovery of coins from shipwrecks and "hoards" can skew the values across-the-board, no doubt about it.  Perhaps one day, a former grader will disclose in his memoirs something I had long suspected, along the lines of... "we could not be quoted for attribution at the time [2020's] but that roostermeister on the East Coast had us pegged dead-to-rights. He suggested a virtual wall had been erected between the MS-66 and MS-67 grades.  He was right. Opening the flood-gates would have resulted in catastrophic losses..."

You heard it here first.