Submitted - MS68.5 vs mine. & off topic updated 1 1

[Oldhoopster]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:29 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’m not gonna respond back to many of others comments…. Rather not say anymore until it gets graded.

I will say, some comments are…“helpful”

Okay, next coin.   How about this one…. I’ll continue to post more of my coins..  But for now on, I will update only obverses, later on reverses in a random order.  This way people won’t become bias on the rarity of the year/mint.  However some years will be obvious, such as 1921.

*For now on, I’ll be taking photos of coins in my car in ambient sunlight so we can all have an idea of lighting, not direct, unless I state using a specific light bulb etc.  what is your grade.  *Again, for is one ambient sunlight around 2-5 pm.

Wow, couple of big hits on the jaw, one on the neck, and one on the 6.  The toning won't hid them from the graders.  Sorry, but your coin isn't close to the top pop 68+ (what is this 68.5 stuff?)

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:18 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Perhaps one day, a former grader will disclose in his memoirs something I had long suspected, along the lines of... "we could not be quoted for attribution at the time [2020's] but that roostermeister on the East Coast had us pegged dead-to-rights. He suggested a virtual wall had been erected between the MS-66 and MS-67 grades.

You don't have to wait for one day, just check out the articles and videos on grading by Rod Gillis, a grader and ANA Director of Education. Graders are justifiably critical of higher grade Morgans as they need to be very clean exceptional coins as well as a match with other higher-grade examples. And I am left wondering who conveyed the title of "East Coast Rooster Meister". I thought Ricky had that title. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/30/2022 at 2:23 PM, EagleRJO said:

....And I am left wondering who conveyed the title of "East Coast Rooster Meister". I thought Ricky had that title. 

Realistically, no self-respecting grader can afford to acknowledge the antics of a non-human. Granted, I have managed to get some high-profile members to respond to Ricky's thoughts, but that's literary license and entertainment. You don't have to be a ventriloquist to know where the sound is coming from.  Many thanks for the reference. I am going to check it out right now.  

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2022 at 3:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Granted, I have managed to get some high-profile members to respond to Ricky's thoughts, but that's literary license and entertainment.

I have to admit I was also sucked into that one, and actually started conversing with Ricky (although on your behalf) in the "scammer thread". 

[VKurtB]

On 10/30/2022 at 1:23 PM, EagleRJO said:

You don't have to wait for one day, just check out the articles and videos on grading by Rod Gillis, a grader and ANA Director of Education. Graders are justifiably critical of higher grade Morgans as they need to be very clean exceptional coins as well as a match with other higher-grade examples. And I am left wondering who conveyed the title of "East Coast Rooster Meister". I thought Ricky had that title. 

Just for the record, Rod Gillis has VERY recently retired as the ANA’s Education Director. A new one has been hired. 

[VKurtB]

The new one’s hiring mandate is to enhance the online educational offerings, hopefully to include full interactivity. We’ll see. That’s so easy to say, and much more difficult to actually carry off. I’ve participated in ANA interactive committee meetings, and they’re really a  experience. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

On 10/29/2022 at 6:29 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’m not gonna respond back to many of others comments…. Rather not say anymore until it gets graded.

I will say, some comments are…“helpful”

Okay, next coin.   How about this one…. I’ll continue to post more of my coins..  But for now on, I will update only obverses, later on reverses in a random order.  This way people won’t become bias on the rarity of the year/mint.  However some years will be obvious, such as 1921.

*For now on, I’ll be taking photos of coins in my car in ambient sunlight so we can all have an idea of lighting, not direct, unless I state using a specific light bulb etc.  what is your grade.  *Again, for is one ambient sunlight around 2-5 pm.

Your 1886 looks like a cleaned AU example. I hope you weren’t thinking it was a problem-free, high grade mint state piece.

[VKurtB]

On 10/30/2022 at 9:27 PM, MarkFeld said:

Your 1886 looks like a cleaned AU example. I hope you weren’t thinking it was a problem-free, high grade mint state piece.

Mark, I think he feels it’s a “top pop” candidate. Not likely. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/30/2022 at 7:11 PM, VKurtB said:

Just for the record, Rod Gillis has VERY recently retired

That's too bad. He had a very easy going naturally fluid style, and you could tell he had a lot of knowledge packed into the attic.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/29/2022 at 7:29 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

.... Okay, next coin.   How about this one…. I’ll continue to post more of my coins..  But for now on, I will update only obverses, ....

To be fair about it, you have not suggested this is an MS-68, or top-pop coin. You are simply soliciting opinions on your other acquisitions. How do you feel about this one? What do you see as its attributes, and shortcomings?  What do you look for in Morgans, or coins, generally?  [At least in the interim while we await NGC's determination...]

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:18 AM, EagleRJO said:

That's too bad. He had a very easy going naturally fluid style, and you could tell he had a lot of knowledge packed into the attic.

He might still do some ad hoc stuff, but he has retired from full time employment at the ANA. This past August at Rosemont, he was duly honored for his incredible service. 

[Harry’s Collection]

Now moving forward

1).  Here is a reverse of a Mercury dime that was submitted with the 1885, delivered/signed Oct 20.  Friday, receiving dept. confirmed acceptance.
———————————

Regarding my submission.

The following day, I got a phone call from the receiving department manager Oct 21st, yup we got it (Friday).

Monday, Thursday & Friday I contact them for my status says “no record”.   All reps told me my order was sent to “Prescreen”.  At that time I didn’t know what that meant, but was told by the reps “The manager felt due to the high value of your coins we decided to send it to prescreen, basically she hinted they’re outstanding & said something like my insurance amount should be higher, uh ok.

*So let’s hope it’s does grade really high, since they sent it to prescreen when I’m not even an Elite member nor did I select that option. The manager said “The coins are very valuable, so we’re going to take extra time on it”.  

I just noticed it is finally got accepted on Friday, I checked around 2:30pm Friday.  So I assume it should be processed quickly within the next day.

**Oddly, just checked it’s still “just received”.  I also noticed it didn’t change since Friday around 2pm, when I checked them as well.

**Long time for a Walkthrough timeframe.  I hope they're taking photos since I paid the extra $18 for PhotoVision+

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Harry’s Collection
Getting off topic

[J P M]

I would make a totally new thread on the dime Harry. That way there is no confusion on any comments . Is the dime date doubled, hard to tell from the photo ? 

Edited October 31, 2022 by J P M

[EagleRJO]

Well, I'm glad it's starting to look like the 1885 Morgan will work out for you, and that the apparent questionable conditions may just be the result of the difficult to photograph appearance of a coin, which is particularly true for toned coins. I take pictures of all my coins for a log and sometimes I look at the pictures and shake my head as it's not how the coin looks in hand, even with a 40x loupe and good lighting looking for things I thought I missed that show up in the pics. That is particularly true with some toned ones, and sometimes flow lines and a frosty surface can really mess with pictures. However, I probably have learned more from kicking around potentially negative comments on coins that I either had or was considering buying than anything else.

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 7:55 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

To be fair about it, you have not suggested this is an MS-68, or top-pop coin. You are simply soliciting opinions on your other acquisitions. How do you feel about this one? What do you see as its attributes, and shortcomings?  What do you look for in Morgans, or coins, generally?  [At least in the interim while we await NGC's determination...]

1).  Luster/Cartwheel (more on this later)

2).  The Rim & Reed (most neglect the reed in my opinion)

3)  The devices high points: 

4) The date:  near, far or regular date (helps attribute the vam)

5) Surface condition (more on this later)

6) Devices details, how well struck

7) Inspecting for polishing lines/markers in the ear lobe, legend, between hairlines - for starters

8)  Toning/Luster, do they look natural?  Strength of luster regarding the degree of toning & its “aging”.  Ex: I have tons of Us mint rolls state quarters not from the bank by from the mint.  Given their clad & we’re talking about Silver, a bit different.  But, I have cracked rolls (directly from the mint), where the toning has ranged from bright blinding reflection (red/purple, yellow & usually “smokey gray).   Some of those are darker toned but have more luster, why I can only guess for *At least one reason, the grease on the dies sometimes are more or less.  (I think this because I’ve cracked a roll of 15/20 quarters but to find only “Struck thru grease”.  For those that don’t know what that is, sometimes the Mint will accidentally have an excess amount of grease on the dies, too much and the coin becomes very “different”.  ****Now this brings up another question, how does a TPG decide if a coin is MS 67 vs MS 64 without knowing the amount of “grease”?   *In the same roll, I’ve found quarters that are not struck thru grease errors & have a very dull luster.  Which tells me, the employee was like “Oh oh, too much grease, gotten remove it (however it is they do that).  So question how does a coin get a fair score?  I’m under the impression the moment the coin is ejected from the die hubs, they should all be MS 69/70 for it  is original in that condition.  Think about proofs, how since they are handled individually with care.  But not all proofs get a 70 even though they are individually handled & inspected 2x - then sent in those nice boxes (suck as modern silver eagles). 

MS coins since history claims the employees would use shovels to load up a wheel barrel & transport to XYZ…. Obviously when PCGS (YouTube) says a “MS 69 is truly one in a million”.  1881-S has 2x MS69 & with a mintage of 12.7 million.   So does that mean there are 12 possible MS69 in total out there for 1881-S?  I believe so, since that year is perhaps the “king of craftsmanship” for the Morgan series from San Fran.  My referencing PCGS & one of David Bowers books, I don’t remember which one I read, have several.  *Though, I’m not saying there is a MS69 per 1 million minted Morgan’s, just elaborating on PCGS’s statement (that could easily be a play on words & not an actual statistical formula).   But one can argue, 1921 Morgan’s have like 44 million, but there is no MS68 (PCGS).  Of course each mint had different employees & etc…. But back to the point I made above, are we grading coins as they are ejected from the hubs or are we potentially bias in some form or another and perhaps unaware of how much “grease” was present at that moment for that coin.  *Another side note, I once submitted a coin here it is…. Came from an original U.S. mint roll sealed etc.  I had an authorized dealer submit o my behalf to a TPG.  When it finally came back, the dealer said, “it’s not an error” perhaps he thought it was a missing clad or fake.  But I didn’t tell him I knew it was 100% authentic & original tone.  It graded MS66, I think.  Well I don’t know for sure, he “lost it”, well he did a bait switch.  I got him to confess to it after I kept pressing him for more info & his story fell apart.   I didn’t press charges because I’m friends with friends of him.  He got lucky…. We needed up settling on small amount.  So lesson learned, take photos lots of photos…. 
 

update, I just called about my submission, the rep said the receiving manager is going to email today about my submission.  Must be good news.  I have a feeling I’ll be subject to a 1% FMV?  Why else did she send it into Prescreen (I didn’t ask for this).  But she said, because your coins are very valuable.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Comment removed.  

Edited October 31, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[Oldhoopster]

How did this thread go from Morgan dollars to mercury dimes to state quarters??

Please start new threads for new coins.  It gets too confusing trying to keep track of who's talking about what coin.  New threads will make it easier for everyone to comment, understand, and learn, or you can just turn this thread into a big cluster

Edited October 31, 2022 by Oldhoopster

[Harry’s Collection]

So I too am ready to close this post…

The title is completely getting off topic.  I was hopeful ppl would comment one word. “MS#”.  Then, I was hopeful others would share there photos as well.  But instead, all I am getting is negative insults.  I don’t have time to teach “Debbie downers” about toning.  Like the guy who posted something like “Artificial toning because the Morgan has a nearly solid color tone”.  But I felt inclined to provide this coin, which did get graded MS66, really don’t know, that what the dealer told me but when I picked it up, it wasn’t there.   *But when he first called me about it, boy he was excited “YOUR COIN ISN’t AN ERROR!  I’m thinking “I didn’t say it was nor did I select error service eval, again I cracked it from a special mini roll from the mint”.  —————————————————-Like the last member, I think I might take this post down.  No one is doing one simple task providing just 4 character MS##.   The post didn’t ask for why you hate it, if you disagree it’s MS - okay I guess you know more than 5x coin dealers at the coin show I was at theirs last summer.  So just say AU58, if you think those dealers who spend $25,000+ to have a convention booth are “blind”.  I’m sure this is how dealers make money, buying quality coins from ppl who sell gems at spot price.  As soon as the results come in, this post is deleted, unless members stick to the intent.  Give a number & if you can share your own coin.  Let’s all be respectful.  In addition, we can all learn from this and be like “How come JohnnyXYZ  got MS66 & I got MS62?”  So let’s try to help each other people otherwise I see no reason for me to spend my precious time taking photos & trying to do side by side with top pops.  As for those who request more photos of angels, how about you post first.  This takes time & no one is paying me.  Again, the goal of this post has evolved to help us members.  Once again, If it continues to be bombarded by amateur remarks “AU bc blah blah” *Well clearly you didn’t read about me showing it to prominent dealers at coin shows comparing it with their 1885-O MS67.5 (PCGS).  Thank you.

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:31 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I see no reason for me to spend my precious time taking photos & trying to do side by side with top pops

Exactly! I don’t see ANY reason ANYBODY does that! Photos don’t matter! Coins are three dimensional and the lighting is hypercritical. Step away from the camera and calm down. 59 years of experience speaking. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:31 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

Once again, If it continues to be bombarded by amateur remarks “AU bc blah blah”

The people making those remarks are very knowledgeable professionals in this field, among the very best. But again, photographs are a very poor medium for making these judgments. 

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:15 PM, Oldhoopster said:

How did this thread go from Morgan dollars to mercury dimes to state quarters??

Please start new threads for new coins.  It gets too confusing trying to keep track of who's talking about what coin.  New threads will make it easier for everyone to comment, understand, and learn, or you can just turn this thread into a big cluster

I agree…. I only posted the Mercury dime because I submitted that with the 1885 Morgan.   I only posted the quarter because someone said “Your Morgan is artificial because the toning is too balanced or evenly distributed”. Sorry for not including his username as a reply, didn’t want to embarrass him too much.  Since this quarter was supposedly graded MS66 by PCGS, but it was “stolen/lost”.   I won’t mention the coin dealers name.  He did admit to it.  In fact I should delete this post, but will keep it up for those to learn one thing, don’t trust.  Take a lot of pics & be polite.

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:06 PM, VKurtB said:

The people making those remarks are very knowledgeable professionals in this field, among the very best. But again, photographs are a very poor medium for making these judgments. 

Did you not read about the guy that said “It’s artificial because one side is not toned & the other side is?”

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 12:50 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

I’m under the impression the moment the coin is ejected from the die hubs, they should all be MS 69/70 for it  is original in that condition.

You need to back off this. It is factually untrue. There are virtually NO 69/70 coming off production dies. You need a whole lot of education. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:10 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

Did you not read about the guy that said “It’s artificial because one side is not toned & the other side is?”

I did. Most legit toning IS widely different from side to side. Yours looks like roll end toning. What it does NOT look like (again, photography limitations) is a really really high grade. Who knows? Maybe the photo makes it look worse than it is. 

[Harry’s Collection]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:10 PM, VKurtB said:

You need to back off this. It is factually untrue. There are virtually NO 69/70 coming off production dies. You need a whole lot of education. 

Really look at 1881-S

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:16 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

Really look at 1881-S

What 1881-S? Yes, 1881-S Morgan dollars are among the best struck coins ever. Very few dates compare. Right off the dies coins average about 65-66, often lower. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by VKurtB

[Harry’s Collection]

This coin appears to have a diagonal scratch on Liberty jaw.  You have to understand one thing from my research the mint never wanted a perfect smooth coin for circulation to avoid counterfeits.  

However proofs are handled by hand & use a different polish & attributes to distinguish them from business. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Harry’s Collection
Do your own research. I’m done posting, until the grade is finalized

[VKurtB]

I’ll give you a real life example, a British one. Just before COVID 19 hit, in December 2019, my now wife and I took the “tourist” tour of the British Royal Mint in Llantrisant, Wales. One option of that tour (extra cost) is to strike your own coin. We both did. The current coin was the Snowman 50 pence. It was also available fresh off the dies in Royal Mint packaging in the Gift Shop. Here’s the weird part. The one done on the tour was STRUCK FOUR TIMES!!! The gift shop one was struck once. The gift shop coin was hand plucked, not dropped into a bin. It is EXACTLY as it came off the dies. But if you look at the tour coin, the detail is MUCH MUCH finer. Not a proof. No special dies, no mirror finish. But there are just things that DO NOT SHOW AT ALL on the gift shop coins, especially in the clouds. Now, if a coin struck once exactly as it comes off the dies is a 70, what the devil is the tour coin? A 72 or 73?  No, the “regular” coin was never anywhere near a 70. “Production” coins are NOT 69’s and 70’s, and never were. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 10/31/2022 at 7:55 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

To be fair about it, you have not suggested this is an MS-68, or top-pop coin. You are simply soliciting opinions on your other acquisitions. How do you feel about this one? What do you see as its attributes, and shortcomings?  What do you look for in Morgans, or coins, generally?  [At least in the interim while we await NGC's determination...]

He is posting his coins next to top pop coins. What else did you think he was suggesting? You need skepticism more in line with a New Yawkuh. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:10 PM, Harry’s Collection said:

Did you not read about the guy that said “It’s artificial because one side is not toned & the other side is?”

No one said that. VKurtB said that the toning looked wrong, except that it was only on one side (meaning that's an indication it's legit toning). And I responded that one-sided toning is not always an indicator of legit toning anymore (with an example of one-sided AT posted), and that I was not seeing a good color progression. That is a classic indicator to look for with AT [along with the lack of pull-away Coinbuf was talking about which wasn't apparent] if you were not aware of that, and which is sometimes very difficult to identify.

Also, I believe all that were critical at first (myself included) qualified comments that it's very difficult to properly evaluate a coin with just one pic of the coin, and that they hoped it was just the way the pics of the coin were presenting. One thing that was really rubbing me the wrong way was the grainy appearance, but it looks like that was just the pics. [Also, just having a bunch of letters and numbers (AU-xx, MS-xx, AU Details, etc.) without some qualifying info and feedback on why people are thinking that is not as useful imo.]

Edited October 31, 2022 by EagleRJO