Why would a Brilliant Uncirculated not me MS 1 1

[Mr.Bill347]

I saw this graded example on EBay, and wondered why it could be BU and not a level of MS. Can anyone explain?

[Woods020]

They both get to the same thing. Both are just catch all phrases used to mean uncirculated. MS is also used to denote a circulation strike from proof. 
 

What I think your question is, is why is it not numerically graded MS-xxx. TPGs do offer this type of grading to simply denote uncirculated. Some large dealers do it to save money on grading while still getting it in a holder. 

[Coinbuf]

BU is a level of MS, if you were around in the years prior to TPG's many uncirculated coins were broken down into UNC, BU, and Gem.   What you see in this ebay auction is a less expensive way for large submitters to get common date coins into holders for the mass marketers like HSN or QVC.   Very popular when a common date MS62-MS63 Morgan was only worth$10-$15 but the holder made it easier to sell to the home shopping customer.   I imagine this is still an available option to the bulk submitters, however with the rise in coin prices it may not be used as often.

[gmarguli]

I suspect a lot of these are from large bulk submissions where they didn't meet the minimum grade. Send in bags to the TPG for grading and everything that grades MS63 or higher gets slabbed with a numeric grade and everything lower gets a generic BU holder and these get sold via Shop @ Home and other similar venues.

[BillJones]

BU for a silver means that it is bright, not tarnished or toned. It does not necessarily mean the coin has not been dipped. If fact for older silver coins, which are not Morgan or Peace Silver Dollars, they may well have been dipped. Those dollars were saved in bags, stored in government vaults, away from air and light. That is why many of them are not toned.

Most older, Mint State silver coins are toned. This 1800 half dime is graded Mint State-64, and it is toned. This is considered to be normal. Very few Mint State coins from this era are bright, and if they are chances are they have been dipped.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:07 AM, Coinbuf said:

BU is a level of MS, if you were around in the years prior to TPG's many uncirculated coins were broken down into UNC, BU, and Gem.  

UNC might be MS60-62, BU was 63-64, and Gem was 65 -- right ?

[JT2]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

UNC might be MS60-62, BU was 63-64, and Gem was 65 -- right ?

Gold finger you are correct...  when i started collecting we did not have all of these plastic things to worry about and they called them UNC, Brillant, and GEM    anything esle was AU, XF, F or VG.....we didnt have all of this fancy stuff just our young eyes.  well i guess now adayts it is good thatr we have them in the plastic.............. hahahaha

Edited March 11, 2022 by JT2

[Conder101]

On 3/11/2022 at 4:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

UNC might be MS60-62, BU was 63-64, and Gem was 65 -- right ?

When I started collecting Unc was any uncirculated coin, Gem was a high end Uncirculated coin (what would later be called 65 or above) and BU meant an untoned uncirculated coin.  There were no numbers back then.

[Coinbuf]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

UNC might be MS60-62, BU was 63-64, and Gem was 65 -- right ?

That is how things were when I was just starting out, of note there were not many coins that were called better than 65 back then.   That is sort of where the TPG's got started ad why you almost never saw or see an old slab with a grade better than 65.   Then came market grading and bam now we have all the uber high grade (and expensive) coins you could want.

[RWB]

On 3/11/2022 at 5:35 PM, Conder101 said:

When I started collecting Unc was any uncirculated coin, Gem was a high end Uncirculated coin (what would later be called 65 or above) and BU meant an untoned uncirculated coin.  There were no numbers back then.

Yes. And everyone survived just fine without the added cost, argument and bluster.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/11/2022 at 5:37 PM, Coinbuf said:

That is how things were when I was just starting out, of note there were not many coins that were called better than 65 back then.   That is sort of where the TPG's got started ad why you almost never saw or see an old slab with a grade better than 65.   Then came market grading and bam now we have all the uber high grade (and expensive) coins you could want.

And Superb Gem might be what was graded/called today as a 67.

Back then, grading was so conservative that many coins that went "Choice Uncirculated" in auction cataglogs got upgraded up to 4 grades once the TPGs came into existence (i.e., the Eliasburg coins).  

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/11/2022 at 5:38 PM, RWB said:

Yes. And everyone survived just fine without the added cost, argument and bluster.

And maybe it WAS better or maybe we can debate whether it was at least in 1990 when you took Nikon pics and faxed it to someone....and only dealers had electronic quote machines.....and without the Web and Internet....before cellphones....and before smartphones taking high-def 12 megapixel photos 

But in an age of the internet and online buying and selling and TV infomercials.....would the lack of numbers fly with the internet, smartphones, high-def pictures?  I'm not so sure, Roger.

Edited March 11, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The numbers are, in reality, meaningless - they have no standard definition, so any "number" can be anything. Several court decisions reinforce that  -- NGC, PCGA, ANACS numbers are just as valid/invalid as NNC, SEGS, FSLS, or any other numbers. That is pathetic.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:54 PM, RWB said:

The numbers are, in reality, meaningless - they have no standard definition, so any "number" can be anything. Several court decisions reinforce that  -- NGC, PCGA, ANACS numbers are just as valid/invalid as NNC, SEGS, FSLS, or any other numbers. That is pathetic.

Well, some of those are legit and I've heard of, others could just be a guy with an alphabet-symbol company filed in Delaware.

[J P M]

I wonder about the MS scale all the time. MS 70 is simple it is perfect but depending on the denomination the range can be all over the place. I compare all coins a lot mostly for Nickels, Morgan's, Gold Eagles and Indians nothing is consistent because grading is a mater of one or two humans opinions and then it is out the door and do another one. I think the bigger coins get more of a chance to get a higher grade with damage than the smaller coins. A few marks on a large coin can get by due to size, volume and popularity helps a lot. The same markings on a small coin not so good. My MS scale Is three tiers  60 to 63 is( OK I guess) 63 to 66 ( GOOD )  66 to 69 ( Very Nice ) Lol .. and please don't add + and - to the numbers it just makes it harder than it already is .......Again though this is one humans opinion..   

[RWB]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, some of those are legit and I've heard of, others could just be a guy with an alphabet-symbol company filed in Delaware.

Without an empirical-based standard that is generally accepted, the numbers are not meaningful and cannot be enforced. (I vaguely recall a court case long ago, before numbers, and back when the ANA Guide was the de factor standard, of someone being convicted of fraud for gross overgrading.) Collector's only redress is to the TPG and its opinion.

Edited March 12, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:56 AM, RWB said:

Without an empirical-based standard that is generally accepted, the numbers are not meaningful and cannot be enforced. (I vaguely recall a court case long ago, before numbers, and back when the ANA Guide was the de factor standard, of someone being convicted of fraud for gross overgrading.) Collector's only redress is to the TPG and its opinion.

I could see overgrading, even with judgment and leeway, being fraudulent if someone was WAY overgrading coins, especially AU coins (AU50-55) with clear signs of wear/circulation as MS-60's to novices/beginners.

Still, look at what passed for information decades before the TPGs....like in that Menjou Catalog I just got.  No grades, just 1-line descriptions.  Even the Price Catalog from 1998 with a decade of the TPGs had many coins way UNDERgraded in subsequent labels.

But yeah, this will never be an exact science.  Still think for the average or beginner collector it's light-years better than pre-1986.

Edited March 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The beginning collector also doesn't bother to learn about grading coins -- and some of the so-called dealers could care less. The present situation also discourages buyers and sellers from making a close examination of coins they handle. Edges get ignored, too.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, RWB said:

The beginning collector also doesn't bother to learn about grading coins -- and some of the so-called dealers could care less. The present situation also discourages buyers and sellers from making a close examination of coins they handle. Edges get ignored, too.

They learn, but probably at a slower rate.  Similar thing in astronomy where people rely on computerized Go-To scopes instead of being able to use a celestial map or star chart.

Edited March 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:59 PM, RWB said:

The present situation also discourages buyers and sellers from making a close examination of coins they handle. Edges get ignored, too.

Definitely agree.  I know when I bought my last batch of (for me) pricey coins at FUN 2020...I spent probably 10-15 minutes looking at the coin (1923-D Saint) different ways.  I could tell it was a nice coin and it was an MS-66...but I deliberately looked for FLAWS to see if anything would cause me to say "I should have waited or passed" a few days or week later.  I really didn't see anything glaring and other MS-65's and 66's were definitely more noticeable with flaws/bagmarks.

Oh yeah...the dealer INSISTED the coin was probably an MS-67 !!! 

Edited March 12, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

the dealer INSISTED the coin was probably an MS-67 !!!

If it was, why didn't the dealer submit it for regrading? Nope. The fellow with merely "lying and trying" to sell an overpriced coin.

[RWB]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

They learn, but probably at a slower rate.  Similar thing in astronomy where people rely on computerized Go-To scopes instead of being able to use a celestial map or star chart.

I agree that some will eventually learn -- but they learn to match unstable numbers to indefinite conditions, essentially a no-win situation. A go-to telescope mount is close to automated star-hopping, but with RA and Dec far more accurate than any amateur telescope could show without encoding and digital readout. Also, the target galaxy or star is always at the same coordinates, even during an astronomy "Star Party." In coin grading, the target is always moving because there are no standards, as there are in astronomy.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/12/2022 at 3:42 PM, RWB said:

The fellow with merely "lying and trying" to sell an overpriced coin.

Definitely not the case.  It was a SHE. 

[Woods020]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I could see overgrading, even with judgment and leeway, being fraudulent if someone was WAY overgrading coins, especially AU coins (AU50-55) with clear signs of wear/circulation as MS-60's to novices/beginners.

Still, look at what passed for information decades before the TPGs....like in that Menjou Catalog I just got.  No grades, just 1-line descriptions.  Even the Price Catalog from 1998 with a decade of the TPGs had many coins way UNDERgraded in subsequent labels.

But yeah, this will never be an exact science.  Still think for the average or beginner collector it's light-years better than pre-1986.

If you ever want to be entertained go to a show and look at raw coins. Particularly find the oldest gentleman you can find. See what their grades and prices are. It’s comical most of the time. Everything is the nicest they’ve ever seen, probably the top pop if you want to fool with one of those grading companies, and priced higher than gem slabbed examples because you can’t see what they looked like and theirs looks way better. Even though you can see what they look like. I love looking through the raw stuff but it almost always a complete waste of time and a frustration. Occasionally it’s a good experience but rarely. 

[Conder101]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:54 PM, RWB said:

The numbers are, in reality, meaningless - they have no standard definition, so any "number" can be anything.

Yep the "Number" is just a name just as the letter grade is a name.

 

On 3/12/2022 at 1:05 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Oh yeah...the dealer INSISTED the coin was probably an MS-67 !!! 

Eventually it probably will be.

[VKurtB]

Virtually ALL of these BU without numbers slabs were promotional items of one sort or another. They still make them today.