How many collect Trade dollars, and what references do they use? 1 1

[RWB]

There've been persistent rumors of a Trade dollar book to replace John M. Willem's 1959 book. Recent hobby chatter suggests this might be closer to fruition. Do many collect these short-lived coins and is there a need/market for an undated reference? {NGC Photo]

Edited January 25, 2022 by RWB

[Mohawk]

That's a very good question, Roger.  In my 22, almost 23, years of doing this as an adult and having worked at a coin shop, I have only met one person who collected Trade Dollars as a series.  The vast majority of demand for Trades in my experience has been as type coins.  They kind of fall into that type demand limbo that a lot of these more obscure U.S. 19th Century types fall into.  Just my 2 pfennige.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Mohawk

[Oldhoopster]

Always can use an updated reference book, especially to build on one that's over 60 years old.  The amount of new info that's available must be staggering.  

Btw, I'm not a trade dollar collector, but as a young collector in the 70s I would search at coin shows, local shops and the backs of the numismatic publications to find reference books, but usually I was stuck with the redbook.  As the new references started to proliferate in the late 80s and early 90s, I bought lots of books, even if I only had 1 or 2 coins in that series.  Turns out I learned a lot from those books.  

[Hoghead515]

I dont have any but ive always fantasized about owning one. Ive sit and drooled looking at pictures of them. I really enjoy them. Maybe one day Ill be able to get one. It is a very interesting subject to read about. For folks who has a good collection of them it would probably be great to have a referance book to them. 

[DWLange]

There have been a lot of good articles on trade dollars in The Gobrecht Journal over the years, but this information has never been compiled into one source. A good trade dollar book would be most welcome.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:51 AM, Hoghead515 said:

I dont have any but ive always fantasized about owning one. Ive sit and drooled looking at pictures of them. I really enjoy them. Maybe one day Ill be able to get one. It is a very interesting subject to read about. For folks who has a good collection of them it would probably be great to have a referance book to them. 

Hog - if you get one that has "chop marks" you can generally find them cheaper.  I have one that is so chopped, it looks like a suction cup.  I actually enjoy the story associated with the damage, and I was able to pick it up MUCH cheaper than if it didn't have them.

[RWB]

If multiple TD experts participated, and also normalized their variety descriptions and illustrations, it could be a useful project. It would have to be a collaborative book with multiple authors. But I wonder if there are enough potential buyers.

Edited January 25, 2022 by RWB

[Hoghead515]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:04 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Hog - if you get one that has "chop marks" you can generally find them cheaper.  I have one that is so chopped, it looks like a suction cup.  I actually enjoy the story associated with the damage, and I was able to pick it up MUCH cheaper than if it didn't have them.

I remember reading something about that. Didnt the Chinese chop them? Something to do with them testing the purity of them or something wasnt it? Its been a while since I read that. 

[gmarguli]

It's the ultimate non-collectible series. 

• Too short to be a challenge for a determined person.
• Too expensive for most collectors to collect in nice condition. 
• A few stoppers (price) in lower grades for a lot of collectors.
• Way too many counterfeits that fool even the dealers. 

It's a pure type coin. 

[RWB]

Chinese merchants and bankers approved silver by adding their "chop" or identifying symbol to the coin or bar. A merchant was responsible for the content of any silver he marked and dealt with severely by his peers for any short weight or fineness. There was an informal system rather than a national monetary policy. This short letter from 1859 might be of interest. The comment half way down that "7.17 taels make 1,000 dollars" should be "71.7 taels make 1,000 dollars." The error is in the original.

Edited January 25, 2022 by RWB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:34 PM, gmarguli said:

It's the ultimate non-collectible series. 

• Too short to be a challenge for a determined person.
• Too expensive for most collectors to collect in nice condition. 
• A few stoppers (price) in lower grades for a lot of collectors.
• Way too many counterfeits that fool even the dealers. 

It's a pure type coin. 

Lol... I like the set because it is short.  It's not a cheap set by any means - but the fact that it's 18 coins is appealing to me.  As a newer collector, those giant, behemoth sets are a little discouraging. 

Ironically, the next silver dollar in line, the Morgan, is the most widely collected dollar in numismatics.  The set is huge... almost 100 coins.    Most of the coins can be had in mint state within a moderate budget.  All of these things should tempt me to collect Morgans, but in my case it does the opposite.  Every table at the coin show has Morgan Dollars, and even the key dates can be found at almost every large show.  If you had the means, you could almost literally build the entire set in an afternoon at a major show.  That turns me off.  (I realize that this view is likely unpopular, because Morgan Dollars are the most collected.  I do like Morgan dollars, but the set doesn't "call to me" like a collection of Trade Dollars or Seated Dollars.  

Maybe I just have a thing for unpopular series 

Edited January 25, 2022 by The Neophyte Numismatist

[gmarguli]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:41 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Lol... I like the set because it is short.  It's not a cheap set by any means - but the fact that it's 18 coins is appealing to me.  As a newer collector, those giant, behemoth sets are a little discouraging. 

Ironically, the next silver dollar in line, the Morgan, is the most widely collected dollar in numismatics.  The set is huge... almost 100 coins.    Most of the coins can be had in mint state within a moderate budget.  All of these things should tempt me to collect Morgans, but in my case it does the opposite.  Every table at the coin show has Morgan Dollars, and even the key dates can be found at almost every large show.  If you had the means, you could almost literally build the entire set in an afternoon at a major show.  That turns me off.  (I realize that this view is likely unpopular, because Morgan Dollars are the most collected.  I do like Morgan dollars, but the set doesn't "call to me" like a collection of Trade Dollars or Seated Dollars.  

Sounds like you are not a typical collector. Most people today need instant gratification and the Morgan Dollar series does that. That series allows someone to add to it when they feel the need / have the funds. All the coins are available in all realistic grades every single day of the year. Even collectors of low financial means can realistically look to owning a Morgan in superb condition. An MS66+ can be found for ~$300. 

[tj96]

I only have one, it's in my Dansco Type Set.  No chop marks.   I never had a preference one way or the other about chop marks. 

Besides, aren't chop marks Post Mint Damage?..................Don't answer that, that's for another thread!  

[physics-fan3.14]

Sometimes, a well written book actually generates interest in a series where there wasn't much before. 

I only have one Trade Dollar myself, a prooflike example for my type set. 

But, if there's a thoroughly researched, thought provoking new book on the series, I'd probably buy it. 

[Conder101]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:34 PM, gmarguli said:

It's the ultimate non-collectible series. 

• Too short to be a challenge for a determined person.
• Too expensive for most collectors to collect in nice condition. 
• A few stoppers (price) in lower grades for a lot of collectors.
• Way too many counterfeits that fool even the dealers. 

And two stoppers that only the very wealthy can afford that keep you from having a complete set (1884 10 known, and 1885 5 known)

[zadok]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:03 PM, Conder101 said:

And two stoppers that only the very wealthy can afford that keep you from having a complete set (1884 10 known, and 1885 5 known)

...and yet the collectors of the series numbers in the low hundreds....i guess its the journey not the destination...

[Conder101]

Or they only collect the non proof coins, which is what I would do if I collected that series.  I don't collect proofs.  I collect coins and I don't consider NCLT (Non-Circulating Legal Tender) to be coins.

[zadok]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:53 PM, Conder101 said:

Or they only collect the non proof coins, which is what I would do if I collected that series.  I don't collect proofs.  I collect coins and I don't consider NCLT (Non-Circulating Legal Tender) to be coins.

...yea but proofs spend just like non-proofs...

[numisport]

On 1/25/2022 at 4:21 PM, tj96 said:

I only have one, it's in my Dansco Type Set.  No chop marks.   I never had a preference one way or the other about chop marks. 

Besides, aren't chop marks Post Mint Damage?..................Don't answer that, that's for another thread!  

Chop marks are certainly post mint damaged coins so I'm not interested.

[numisport]

I'm sure chop marked Trades would get details grade but after a quick look at both Regestries I could not find any images. Some Details graded coins are listed but no images of chop marked coins were evident.

[Oldhoopster]

Technically, I agree about chops being PMD, but they do have a dedicated collector base and literature.  It's not my area of interest, but IMO, I have no problem with chop marks being a collectable topic and being discussed on hobby forums

 

[tj96]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:47 AM, numisport said:

Chop marks are certainly post mint damaged coins so I'm not interested.

 

On 1/29/2022 at 12:00 PM, numisport said:

I'm sure chop marked Trades would get details grade but after a quick look at both Regestries I could not find any images. Some Details graded coins are listed but no images of chop marked coins were evident.

I guess they don't all recognize the damage.

[zadok]

...i believe the tpgs treat chop marked coins much like counterstruck coins n label in a similar manner....

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Here is the chopped one from my 7070:

 

[gmarguli]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:47 AM, numisport said:

Chop marks are certainly post mint damaged coins so I'm not interested.

Damaged is debatable. The coins were meant to circulate in an area where chopmarks were a normal part of the circulation process. Calling it damage would be the same as calling worn coins in the US damaged. 

[Alex in PA.]

Only have one - 1875 CC.

[RWB]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:37 PM, gmarguli said:

Damaged is debatable. The coins were meant to circulate in an area where chopmarks were a normal part of the circulation process. Calling it damage would be the same as calling worn coins in the US damaged. 

Not quite....Silver coins were not given any official mark in China or elsewhere. Silver coins were not used in any of the Chinese trade ports. All of these were private marks much like advertising tokens in the US or regulated coins (Brasher, etc). Silver coin also were not introduced for circulation, but as a way to transfer silver metal weight. When Chinese merchants received Mexican, US. British, Japanese  trade dollars, they would, when possible, immediately melt them into syce which was the normal silver form used in South China.

Chopmarks are not equivalent to wear, but possibly to the  familiar mutilations mentioned above.

Edited January 29, 2022 by RWB

[Numismatic, A.A.S.]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:03 PM, Conder101 said:

And two stoppers that only the very wealthy can afford that keep you from having a complete set (1884 10 known, and 1885 5 known)

Exactly.....the varieties I can play but not above or errors.

[Mohawk]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:47 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Only have one - 1875 CC.

Here's a shock.....I've never owned a single one.  I handled many of them working at the coin shop, but I've never owned a single one.

[numisport]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:37 PM, gmarguli said:

Damaged is debatable. The coins were meant to circulate in an area where chopmarks were a normal part of the circulation process. Calling it damage would be the same as calling worn coins in the US damaged. 

I would call these coins bent