Is this considered ethical? How do they get by NGC? 1 1

[gmarguli]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:00 PM, Jerry Picker said:

 I guess us old timers and serious collectors are behind the times. We never thought of altering coins to make a profit. We take the coins as they are, which we think look fine. Pretty soon all you'll see are all blue-brown coins in plastic holders. It's a shame.

 

Speaking of ethics, isn't your stance on this kind of hypocritical:

 

 

 

So, you will sell coins to a person who is knowingly "altering" and "enhancing" coins as long as they will pay the asking price? I guess capitalism is good for you, but not for others. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

I wonder if the person he paid $17 to for the IHC is complaining this much?

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:22 AM, zadok said:

i suggest we now call this the ngc forum n corrida....wasnt caesar assassinated in the forum?...ironic that brutus denarius sells for more than caesar denarius, just to keep topic numismatically grounded....

The Great Zadok has spoken!  (Thanks for making my day!)   🐓 

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:10 PM, gmarguli said:

 

Speaking of ethics, isn't your stance on this kind of hypocritical:

 

 

 

So, you will sell coins to a person who is knowingly "altering" and "enhancing" coins as long as they will pay the asking price? I guess capitalism is good for you, but not for others. 

Very lovely denticles!  Now if he'd've messed with them he'd've been hearing from me pronto!

[Henri Charriere]

To the OP...

Anyone who can unequivocally state he has never encountered so much as an eye-opening comment at any time on this Forum shall be in for a rude awakening.  Most of us will discover it is impossible to know every aspect of the hobby.  The only consolation I, as a newer member, has is there are some things (pardon my word choice) I am not privy to -- and sadly never will be.  Therefore, let us celebrate the time we have together with the likes of thoroughbreds the OP has yet to enjoy interacting with who will regal him personal experiences, research based on original official records -- and a sense of humor with a practical application to this great hobby.    😉 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:00 PM, Jerry Picker said:

@Mikhail2400  I guess us old timers and serious collectors are behind the times. We never thought of altering coins to make a profit. We take the coins as they are, which we think look fine. Pretty soon all you'll see are all blue-brown coins in plastic holders. It's a shame.

Jerry, in this case the "altering" is part of an accepted norm.  

I get where you are coming from but nothing was done illegal or unethically here.  If you want to talk about unethical -- or maybe just bad luck -- check out the Franklin Gradeflation Thread ATS. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Mohawk]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:34 PM, Alex in PA. said:

and now history is going cheap on him.  

History's really gone cheap on my beloved Faustina.....I've bought denarii of hers for $35.  I'm pretty sure Big Juli pulls in more bucks than Fausti Jr.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Mohawk

[VKurtB]

To the OP,  

While I understand what your concerns are, the hobby has moved on from “normal” standards 40 years ago. These days, what this fellow did is considered 100% ethical. Indeed, if he hadn’t done it, some would consider him an insufficiently adept numismatist. This is how the game is played these days. It’s considered nearly praiseworthy.

It is highly common to apply yesterday’s “rules” to a purity that is absurd today. When you internalize that the hobby has changed in many ways, you might want to help me explain that fact to RWB, another stuck-in-the-past purist here.

Edited October 3, 2021 by VKurtB

[Jason Abshier]

Happens everyday , every graded coin at one time was raw bought for way way cheaper than a graded coin sells for he probably had them sent in for conservation at his own expenses . It’s neither ethical or unethical just the way the hobby is … I’m sure I’ve sold coins in past someone else made extra money off it having it graded and sold … 

[Jerry Picker]

This will be my last comment about this. I asked Rick Snow and I got this reply in a record setting 15 minutes. I have had dealings with him in the past and even have coins that he attributed in his book.. Here's what he had to say:

 

New message from: eerc (13,360)

Your images are not good. The lower hair curl looks flat, but not in the buyers image. The purple tone is obviously not natural, but it happens when you remove the natural accumulating oils on the coin. NGC should have kicked it back. Thank you. Rick Snow

[Just Bob]

On 10/3/2021 at 5:03 PM, Jerry Picker said:

This will be my last comment about this. I asked Rick Snow and I got this reply in a record setting 15 minutes. I have had dealings with him in the past and even have coins that he attributed in his book.. Here's what he had to say:

 

New message from: eerc (13,360)

Your images are not good. The lower hair curl looks flat, but not in the buyers image. The purple tone is obviously not natural, but it happens when you remove the natural accumulating oils on the coin. NGC should have kicked it back. Thank you. Rick Snow

Did either you or Mr. Snow contact the seller and ask if he was the one who dipped the coins, or did he send them to NGC for conservation?

[Mohawk]

On 10/3/2021 at 8:59 PM, Just Bob said:

Did either you or Mr. Snow contact the seller and ask if he was the one who dipped the coins, or did he send them to NGC for conservation?

Good question Bob.......the answer will be pretty important to this whole thread.......

[zadok]

...somebody remind me to never buy any coins from the OP....

[Coinbuf]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:50 PM, zadok said:

...somebody remind me to never buy any coins from the OP....

 I am just the opposite, looking at the auction results buying from him and getting the coins slabbed by NGC is a very profitable venture.  

[zadok]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:56 PM, Coinbuf said:

 I am just the opposite, looking at the auction results buying from him and getting the coins slabbed by NGC is a very profitable venture.  

yea but is it worth all the whining n crying?...

[Mohawk]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:57 PM, zadok said:

yea but is it worth all the whining n crying?...

It depends on your threshold for this kind of thing.  But I'm with you zadok....for me, no, no it's not.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Mohawk

[Coinbuf]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:57 PM, zadok said:

yea but is it worth all the whining n crying?...

I'd be laughing all the way to the bank, he can cry and whine all he wants.

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:50 PM, zadok said:

...somebody remind me to never buy any coins from the OP....

Aw c'mon, Great One!  No arrest, no conviction, and a verdict isn't even it yet! Be patient.   

[VKurtB]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Aw c'mon, Great One!  No arrest, no conviction, and a verdict isn't even it yet! Be patient.   

Are you starting to understand “cracking out” yet?

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Are you starting to understand “cracking out” yet?

(Yes, but I will bet you will never see a computer-chipped NFT one from PCGS nor any of their much heralded 2020 (P) or 2020 (S) Emergency Issues, so deflowered.)

[VKurtB]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:44 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

(Yes, but I will bet you will never see a computer-chipped NFT one from PCGS nor any of their much heralded 2020 (P) or 2020 (S) Emergency Issues, so deflowered.)

Actually, I look forward to bringing the cheese to accompany that w(h)ine.

[zadok]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Aw c'mon, Great One!  No arrest, no conviction, and a verdict isn't even it yet! Be patient.   

...low tolerance threshold for whiners, cry babies, opinionated clowns n a few other categories that cant mention here, u will need to be the patience provider for the forum.....

[Mohawk]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:56 PM, zadok said:

...low tolerance threshold for whiners, cry babies, opinionated clowns n a few other categories that cant mention here, u will need to be the patience provider for the forum.....

If I ever need a good cry, I'll go to Quintus and not you, zadok 

[Woods020]

[numisport]

I've always given my raw submissions an acetone dip to remove any finger oils or other goop you may not be able to see. Is that unethical or is it unethical for NGC to apply the Pf 69 Ultra Cameo grade to it ?

[Just Bob]

I am not trying to make any enemies, OP, but I still have not gotten past the fact that a member named "Jerry Picker" was "picked" by a "Cherry Picker."

[VKurtB]

On 10/4/2021 at 11:40 AM, Just Bob said:

I am not trying to make any enemies, OP, but I still have not gotten past the fact that a member named "Jerry Picker" was "picked" by a "Cherry Picker."

I will say that the fellow who “processed” the OP’s coins has a suspicious number of identical looking IHC’s. He’s “manufacturing”. Just like I’ve always said when some people became enamored of color for color’s sake. It’s not smart, it’s not healthy.  I‘m not saying that what he’s doing should be illegal, just that shopping for color is butt stupid. MOST OF IT is intentional “manufacturing”.

Edited October 4, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

SOME THOUGHTS ON ETHICAL CONSIDERATIONS. . .

Not for nothing, but I anticipate a time when a member jumps onto the Forum and introduces an unusual twist to this whole discussion of ethics, or lack thereof.

His argument will be a novel one but not without merit.  He will argue that when he submitted his rare incontestably valuable world coin to be authenticated, certified and encapsulated, it was worth X dollars.  By the time he got it back, due to what many would regard as an unacceptable and indefensible turnaround time, the collector/investor/numismatist was involuntarily forced to forfeit a substantial amount of his item's value.

When a term like "estimated turnaround" becomes inestimable and and indeterminate so as to be meaningless, its definition, particularly as used in an industry recognized for its volatility, is actionable.

Note:  the entire asterisked microprinted,  headnote, reading:  "Turnaround time is approximate, not guaranteed, and begins the day NGC receives your coins...." are words the meanings of which inevitably --written disclaimer notwithstanding -- are for a jury to decide.   🐓 

[Revenant]

On 10/3/2021 at 8:59 PM, Coinbuf said:

I'd be laughing all the way to the bank, he can cry and whine all he wants.

If you ignore him you don't have to see it anyway. Just saying. Not encouraging mass-ignores. Just saying I think there are ways to "dull the pain."

[Mohawk]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:36 PM, Revenant said:

If you ignore him you don't have to see it anyway. Just saying. Not encouraging mass-ignores. Just saying I think there are ways to "dull the pain."

Indeed there are....the ignore function came in very handy for me with "The Collector", Travis Hale and our old, dear friend Slicky.