Why are some high end collections called “cabinets” 1 1

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

In terms of cabinet friction; I do agree that any amount of true wear could disqualify the coin from being "Mint State".  However, I also agree that coin grading is subjective... MS in NGC, PCGS, ANACS, EAC can all mean slightly (or very) different things.  Are we talking straight grade, or Net Grade?  I definitely could see a slightly "frictioned" coin getting into an MS holder.  But, I could also see EAC net grading it AU or even XF.  Not trying to take us on a subjectively-rabbit-hole... but... 

In terms of Voodoo vs Vodu.. I think the Hollywood fictitious (VooDoo) is likely more appropriate than the religious sect of Vodu here.  However, some dealers/collectors would use a holy relic angle if they could .

Edited October 1, 2021 by The Neophyte Numismatist
grammar

[RWB]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:13 AM, Just Bob said:

Sadly, those "activities" will likely be viewed as acceptable practices only a few decades from now.

One hopes not. After all, we'll still have meat slicers.

[Mohawk]

On 10/1/2021 at 3:12 PM, RWB said:

One hopes not. After all, we'll still have meat slicers.

Indeed. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Mohawk

[Mikhail2400]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:13 AM, Just Bob said:

Sadly, those "activities" will likely be viewed as acceptable practices only a few decades from now.

No, that I dont believe. If anything the consequences of those 'activities' are getting harsher every year, as they should. 

[Mohawk]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:28 PM, Mikhail2400 said:

No, that I dont believe. If anything the consequences of those 'activities' are getting harsher every year, as they should. 

I'm with you there, Mike, and I'm glad for it.  Wally Breen died exactly where he should have......in prison.  Though I have to admit to wondering how Breen would have responded if he had ended up in a house, on T.V., being confronted by Chris Hanson........

[Mikhail2400]

On 10/1/2021 at 9:50 PM, Mohawk said:

being confronted by Chris Hanson........

See I would rather see them caught by the father. Like the one down in Daytona Beach. On the 911 call the father says "I got him right here on the floor in a puddle of blood". No he didnt kill him but it looks the guy lived by luck alone.

 

[Mohawk]

On 10/1/2021 at 10:16 PM, Mikhail2400 said:

See I would rather see them caught by the father. Like the one down in Daytona Beach. On the 911 call the father says "I got him right here on the floor in a puddle of blood". No he didnt kill him but it looks the guy lived by luck alone.

 

Agreed 100% Mike!!

[VKurtB]

On 10/1/2021 at 8:55 AM, RWB said:

Wear is the absolute discriminator between uncirculated and circulated - by basic numismatic definition

Except for the fact that it no longer is, and that is fact. It used to be, yes, but it no longer is. Our august hosts herein have graded in the Mint State range NUMEROUS coins that have minor high point wear attributable to friction between the coins and a past “home” in which they resided. And it is NOT restricted to past things. Literal “coin cabinets” are still being manufactured and sold today. They still have velvet and velour lined trays into which coins go up until this very day. The Abafil Company of Milan, Italy is one such manufacturer of trays and the portable version of the “cabinet”, the Abafil attaché case designs. They are tremendously popular in Europe, and I own several of them. My literal wooden cabinet is presently on order and delivery is expected this coming Spring. It is tremendously expensive and beautiful, 100% walnut cut from my own trees when I lived in Pennsylvania. It is being handcrafted in Germany by an artisan whose primary business is making cabinets for fine silver flatware. My stash of hickory awaits the second order, also Lancaster County, Pennsylvania hardwood. Only my best world pieces will be housed in them, and the trays within will all be from Abafil of Milan, complete with their velvet and velour lined trays in deep blue, British racing green and the classic crimson. I never said I was a conformist. I’m a quality snob. I never watch NASCAR. I’m more into Formula 1. (And IndyCar, because I used to work for Roger Penske.)

Edited October 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

@VKurtB I am sure that cabinet will be beautiful.  I have seen these cabinets and they are quite ornate.  It will be very special to have one made with elements of home - truly an heirloom piece.

[Hoghead515]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:52 PM, zadok said:

why stop there could have the "shoe box" or  "under the mattress" collection.....actually if u go back far enuf having a special cabinet for anything was considered elite, common folk couldnt afford to waste money on superfluous pieces of furniture other examples...sugar n spice chests, cased sets of pistols etc etc.....

I could see it wrote on a slab one of these days," Hogheads underwear drawer collection." 

[VKurtB]

On 10/2/2021 at 2:09 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I could see it wrote on a slab one of these days," Hogheads underwear drawer collection." 

Not a problem UNLESS you keep your underwear in PCGS blue plastic boxes. You don’t, do you?

[Mohawk]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:09 PM, Hoghead515 said:

I could see it wrote on a slab one of these days," Hogheads underwear drawer collection." 

I LOVE it!!! That's the best collection name ever.

[J P M]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:14 AM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

In terms of cabinet friction; I do agree that any amount of true wear could disqualify the coin from being "Mint State".  However, I also agree that coin grading is subjective... MS in NGC, PCGS, ANACS, EAC can all mean slightly (or very) different things.  Are we talking straight grade, or Net Grade?  I definitely could see a slightly "frictioned" coin getting into an MS holder.  But, I could also see EAC net grading it AU or even XF.  Not trying to take us on a subjectively-rabbit-hole... but... 

In terms of Voodoo vs Vodu.. I think the Hollywood fictitious (VooDoo) is likely more appropriate than the religious sect of Vodu here.  However, some dealers/collectors would use a holy relic angle if they could .

This is one of my favorite Morgan's it reminds me never judge a book by it's cover. This is a face only a mother could love. Would this be cabinet friction. What grade is this girl in.

[Mohawk]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:10 PM, J P Mashoke said:

This is one of my favorite Morgan's it reminds me never judge a book by it's cover. This is a face only a mother could love. Would this be cabinet friction. What grade is this girl in.

That girl got seriously smacked by the rims of a few other coins in a bag.  But that's okay....most of my girls spent at least a thousand years in the ground.  As far as a grade, we'd need full photos of both the obverse and reverse to help you there, JP.

[J P M]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:13 PM, Mohawk said:

That girl got seriously smacked by the rims of a few other coins in a bag.  But that's okay....most of my girls spent at least a thousand years in the ground.  As far as a grade, we'd need full photos of both the obverse and reverse to help you there, JP.

Yes I would only pay 50 for it.  It is already graded a MS 63

[VKurtB]

On 10/2/2021 at 6:10 PM, J P Mashoke said:

This is one of my favorite Morgan's it reminds me never judge a book by it's cover. This is a face only a mother could love. Would this be cabinet friction. What grade is this girl in.

This is not cabinet friction, but it is a severe case of bag marks. If this area is representative of the whole coin, it’s a MS60 or 61.

[J P M]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:15 PM, VKurtB said:

This is not cabinet friction, but it is a severe case of bag marks. If this area is representative of the whole coin, it’s a MS60 or 61.

Yes , it is not always what it seems to be  

[VKurtB]

On 10/2/2021 at 6:19 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Yes , it is not always what it seems to be  

As is frequently the case, the reverse is “cleaner”, more free of bag marks. Some true technical grading purists would insist the eagle breast feathers would preclude an MS grade. I push back HARD against the idea of strict technical grading. It’s obsolete. In fact, the BEST PROOF that it’s obsolete is that @RWB supports it. /only VERY slightly kidding.
 

The error that strict technical graders make is statements like, “if it has attribute X, it can’t be grade Y”. I reject ALL such “rules” in MS grading. There are AT LEAST four criteria intermingled to create an MS coin grade, not one. If one criterion is lacking, the others can “rescue” the coin’s grade. Now Roger can properly say that’s not how HE rolls, and he doesn’t support it. But the hobby writ large now DOES. Roger’s definitive statements are mere opinions or even occasionally, lies.

Edited October 3, 2021 by VKurtB

[J P M]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:23 PM, VKurtB said:

As is frequently the case, the reverse is “cleaner”, more free of bag marks. Some true technical grading purists would insist the eagle breast feathers would preclude an MS grade.

Yes Kurt this coin is my reminder to always look past the face and see if there is more. I hope to see some photos of your coin cabinet some day VKurtB it sounds like it is going to be quit elegant.

[VKurtB]

This is from the Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins (7th edition) , on page 41:

””Some years ago, the editor of The Sentinel, official journal of the Central States Numismatic Society, sent 10 different coins to four different professional grading services. In not a single instance could all four services agree on even a single coin, and in one instance, that of a 1919 Standing Liberty quarter, professional opinions ranged from AU-55 to MS-65.”  NOTE to @Quintus Arrius, this explains why “cracking out” is so common.

Now before knowing, I’m going to look up the current Numsmedia FMV spread on that coin. 
 

…

1919 (P) Standing Lib - $162 at AU55, $525 at MS65.

Now if you still need to know how imprecise the ART of grading is, I can’t help you. It’s ALL opinions. Not “everybody other than Roger's is opinion; but he speaks in facts.”

Edited October 3, 2021 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 10/2/2021 at 8:23 PM, VKurtB said:

This is from the Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins (7th edition) , on page 41:

””Some years ago, the editor of The Sentinel, official journal of the Central States Numismatic Society, sent 10 different coins to four different professional grading services. In not a single instance could all four services agree on even a single coin, and in one instance, that of a 1919 Standing Liberty quarter, professional opinions ranged from AU-55 to MS-65.”  NOTE to @Quintus Arrius, this explains why “cracking out” is so common.

Now before knowing, I’m going to look up the current Numsmedia FMV spread on that coin. 
 

…

1919 (P) Standing Lib - $162 at AU55, $525 at MS65.

Now if you still need to know how imprecise the ART of grading is, I can’t help you. It’s ALL opinions. Not “everybody other than Roger's is opinion; but he speaks in facts.”

...in QA's neighborhood "cracking out" means something different....

[VKurtB]

On 10/2/2021 at 9:10 PM, zadok said:

...in QA's neighborhood "cracking out" means something different....

Hmm. Indeed. One of my former hometowns, too. It was declared “the most impoverished city in the United States” in 2013. That next Spring, AA hockey’s ECHL Kelly Cup Final was contested between the #1 and #2 most impoverished cities in the U. S. My home town won both the Cup and the err, umm, “honor” (???). I grew up in and attended that hellhole of a public school system. I was Class of ‘73 and I was a National Merit Scholar, and got my degree at an incredibly tough college. It took a semester to figure things out. Bad education systems just require far more determination on the part of the students.

Edited October 3, 2021 by VKurtB

[Just Bob]

On 10/2/2021 at 7:23 PM, VKurtB said:

This is from the Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins (7th edition) , on page 41:

””Some years ago, the editor of The Sentinel, official journal of the Central States Numismatic Society, sent 10 different coins to four different professional grading services. In not a single instance could all four services agree on even a single coin, and in one instance, that of a 1919 Standing Liberty quarter, professional opinions ranged from AU-55 to MS-65.”  

This isn't at all unexpected. Assuming that two of the services were NGC and PCGS, it comes as no surprise that the other two chosen TPG - no matter which ones - did not grade the same as the top two. They almost never do, and that fact is well known and accepted.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Just Bob
typo

[VKurtB]

On 10/2/2021 at 11:31 PM, Just Bob said:

This isn't art all unexpected. Assuming that two of the services were NGC and PCGS, it comes as no surprise that the other two chosen TPG - no matter which ones - did not grade the same as the top two. They almost never do, and that fact is well known and accepted.

The irony is that each and EVERY coin that is in somebody else’s slab, that I’ve sent to NGC, that NGC has ALWAYS come back with the exact same grade. 5 from PCGS, 3 from ICG, 3 in old soap bar ANACS, and even one from NNC, the junk basement slabbed. NGC exactly matched all 12.

[Just Bob]

On 10/3/2021 at 3:45 PM, VKurtB said:

The irony is that each and EVERY coin that is in somebody else’s slab, that I’ve sent to NGC, that NGC has ALWAYS come back with the exact same grade. 5 from PCGS, 3 from ICG, 3 in old soap bar ANACS, and even one from NNC, the junk basement slabbed. NGC exactly matched all 12.

That probably has more to do with your ability to grade than anything else. The odds of that happening with 12 randomly chosen coins, or even 12 coins chosen by a less experienced submitter, are likely to be much less.

[Mohawk]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:45 PM, VKurtB said:

The irony is that each and EVERY coin that is in somebody else’s slab, that I’ve sent to NGC, that NGC has ALWAYS come back with the exact same grade. 5 from PCGS, 3 from ICG, 3 in old soap bar ANACS, and even one from NNC, the junk basement slabbed. NGC exactly matched all 12.

You must be damned good Kurt!  I'm impressed with your grading skills!

[VKurtB]

On 10/3/2021 at 8:08 PM, Mohawk said:

You must be damned good Kurt!  I'm impressed with your grading skills!

I don’t know if my grading skills style creates those matches between services, but it might explain my raw submissions results. I seldom am surprised by any grade my submissions get, with the exception of being occasionally surprised by how high a few come in. Nobody expects to get a 1/0 top pop coin, and I now have three. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by VKurtB

[Conder101]

On 9/30/2021 at 4:05 PM, zadok said:

"cabinet friction" is a totally accepted numismatic term n is accepted by more than a majority of collectors, dealers, catalogers....

It gives them an excuse for calling a coin with light wear on the high points "Uncirculated."