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Why are some high end collections called “cabinets”
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58 posts in this topic

I see this from time to time… the XXX cabinet collection.  This is from the Pittman Cabinet… etc.

I would consider a “cabinet” something in which to store your coins, but not the collection itself. 
 

Thoughts?

Edited by The Neophyte Numismatist
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Just an old school term, long ago collectors kept all their coins in coin cabinets.   Thus when a collector would take a coin out of the cabinet to sell or trade it came from his cabinet.   Even today I have seen some collectors that use coin cabinets, more so for raw unique types of collectables like love tokens and other items like that.

Edited by Coinbuf
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Lol.  So no deeper meaning than an actual storage cabinet.

I was thinking in terms of the “literary canon” or some other form of elite designation.  I was clearly overthinking.

Perhaps, I aspire to have the “Neophyte Safe Deposit Box Collection”.   Maybe have a “Neo Slab-inet Collection”

Doesn’t quite sound as sophisticated and elite, but accurate. 

Edited by The Neophyte Numismatist
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On 9/30/2021 at 1:24 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

Lol.  So no deeper meaning than an actual storage cabinet.

I was thinking in terms of the “literary canon” or some other form of elite designation.  I was clearly overthinking.

Perhaps, I aspire to have the “Neophyte Safe Deposit Box Collection”.   Maybe have a “Neo Slab-inet Collection”

Doesn’t quite sound as sophisticated and elite, but accurate. 

why stop there could have the "shoe box" or  "under the mattress" collection.....actually if u go back far enuf having a special cabinet for anything was considered elite, common folk couldnt afford to waste money on superfluous pieces of furniture other examples...sugar n spice chests, cased sets of pistols etc etc.....

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Coin and medal collections were sometimes kept in cabinet furniture with velvet lined drawers and spaces for various items, including minerals, ancient pottery, etc. The term "cabinet" both described the thing hold coins, but also had a connotation of quality or broad extent. "Name" collectors had "cabinets;" ordinary folks had "drawers" or "boxes" of coins in little envelopes. The term also relates to "curio cabinet" and "cabinet of wonders" - which were common middle class decorative items holding conversation pieces for the amusement of visitors. Some older people still have curio cabinets for their collections of Hummel kitsch, Bradford Exchange plates, and similar.

"Cabinet friction" is the lie told by a seller who is attempting to pawn off a circulated coin as one that is uncirculated. "Virtually uncirculated" is an equally loathsome lie.

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@RWB I have never heard the term "Cabinet Friction" thanks for sharing.

@GBrad and @zadok you two have a future at Heritage and Legend marketing lots!  "Lot #152 was taken from the 'Neophyte Stained Mattress Collection'.  This coin exhibits vibrant brown Folgers and Maxwell House toning - and currently resides in a marred 2x2 cardboard holder. 

Edited by The Neophyte Numismatist
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On 9/30/2021 at 3:51 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

@RWB I have never heard the term "Cabinet Friction" thanks for sharing.

@GBrad and @zadok you two have a future at Heritage and Legend marketing lots!  "Lot #152 was taken from the 'Neophyte Stained Mattress Collection'.  This coin exhibits vibrant brown Folgers and Maxwell House toning - and currently resides in a marred 2x2 cardboard holder. 

"cabinet friction" is a totally accepted numismatic term n is accepted by more than a majority of collectors, dealers, catalogers....only a few mis-informed n overly opinionated individuals continue to disregard the terminology....obviously there r individuals in the numismatic community that attempt to use the term in a dishonest manner as in almost any other collecting community, the best avoidance of this is to become an accurate coin grader in ur own right......

Edited by zadok
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On 9/30/2021 at 3:51 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

@RWB I have never heard the term "Cabinet Friction" thanks for sharing.

The usual explanation is that coins or medals slid around in their cabinet slots as the drawers were opened and closed. Might not have happened if they used briefs or something tighter fitting. This is all a bunch of "hooey" as they'd say someplace-or-t'other.

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On 9/30/2021 at 3:05 PM, zadok said:

"cabinet friction" is a totally accepted numismatic term n is accepted by more than a majority of collectors, dealers, catalogers....only a few mis-informed n overly opinionated individuals continue to disregard the terminology....obviously there r individuals in the numismatic community that attempt to use the term in a dishonest manner as in almost any other collecting community, the best avoidance of this is to become an accurate coin grader in ur own right......

Every word of this post is a complete gem. One must be appropriately wary of everything posted by @RWB. He tends to state his own minority opinions that nearly nobody in the field agrees with, as indisputable facts. It’s annoying as all get out.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 9/30/2021 at 9:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Every word of this post is a complete gem. One must be appropriately wary of everything posted by @RWB. He tends to state his own minority opinions that nearly nobody in the field agrees with, as indisputable facts. It’s annoying as all get out.

The item quoted is merely cheap cut glass and paste - no real gems there.

I tend to state the truth, even if the "sacred received wise ones' " can't factually support their lies; it is a matter of playing the sucker coin-com game, or standing aside and laughing at them falling over their own words. A coin with so-called "cabinet friction" is no longer uncirculated by any definition of the word. The term "cabinet friction" is not generally accepted any more than Breen's "Roman proof" or any other lies built on greed and the purveying of ignorance.

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On 9/30/2021 at 8:21 PM, RWB said:

A coin with so-called "cabinet friction" is no longer uncirculated by any definition of the word

This is a literal untruth, in other words, a lie. Many MS61 and MS62 coins are catalogued as having “some cabinet friction”. I would NOT be surprised to see the occasional MS 63 with it, although it would require great strike and luster to achieve it.

 I agree that I have zero idea what a “Roman finish” St. Gaudens $20 is, but clearly somebody does. If I had cared enough to know, I would have looked at it in Rosemont. I have never had less available time at ANY World’s Fair of Money show. It was go, go, go, all day every day.

Roger, you are an unrepentant purveyor of what are essentially “minority reports”. These are things that virtually no one but you believes, although no one could charge you with not believing them sincerely. Sincerity is no substitute for keeping up to date with modern standards. 
 

Your opinions have remained static for multiple decades. The hobby has not. We’ve moved on. You should consider It too.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 9/30/2021 at 9:24 PM, VKurtB said:

This is a literal untruth, in other words, a lie. Many MS61 and MS62 coins are catalogued as having “some cabinet friction”. I would NOT be surprised to see the occasional MS 63 with it, although it would require great strike and luster to achieve it.

 I agree that I have zero idea what a “Roman finish” St. Gaudens $20 is, but clearly somebody does. If I had cared enough to know, I would have looked at it in Rosemont.

Your comment is an absolute lie. Your should known better. You're supposed to be a Big Shot ANA Judge -- with powdered periwig and monocle. Read the standard definition of "uncirculated." It only goes back 200+ years in the US... As for YOU not knowing what "Roman finish" is -- I can understand --- no one does. It was never been defined and is totally meaningless. Merely invented to garner bucks for an ignorant pedophile who's biggest success was dying in prison.

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On 9/30/2021 at 8:36 PM, RWB said:

Your comment is an absolute lie. Your should known better. You're supposed to be a Big Shot ANA Judge -- with powdered periwig and monocle. Read the standard definition of "uncirculated." It only goes back 200+ years in the US... As for YOU not knowing what "Roman finish" is -- I can understand --- no one does. It was never been defined and is totally meaningless. Merely invented to garner bucks for an ignorant pedophile who's biggest success was dying in prison.

I have read. I have taken live courses. I do NOT go by 30 year old definitions. Cabinet friction is allowed up to MS63. Among really really old coins, perhaps up to MS65. The ANA just announced a MODERN grading course for the January FUN show. I strongly recommend you attend, and stop misinforming people.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 9/30/2021 at 9:21 PM, RWB said:

The item quoted is merely cheap cut glass and paste - no real gems there.

I tend to state the truth, even if the "sacred received wise ones' " can't factually support their lies; it is a matter of playing the sucker coin-com game, or standing aside and laughing at them falling over their own words. A coin with so-called "cabinet friction" is no longer uncirculated by any definition of the word. The term "cabinet friction" is not generally accepted any more than Breen's "Roman proof" or any other lies built on greed and the purveying of ignorance.

same b.s....same deflection...first it was trying make opinions into facts, now its trying make opinions into truths, " truths" without the same facts that consistently faults others for not providing.... starting to look like an obsession bout trying to discredit breen on all levels, possibly a description in DSM-5 that describes these types of behavior maybe somewhere under envy or wanna be scenarios....no clue, out of my wheel house but questionable to keep reiterating the same thing over n over n expecting a different result, certainly obliterates any actual intelligent discussion on the issues....

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On 9/30/2021 at 9:36 PM, RWB said:

Merely invented to garner bucks for an ignorant pedophile who's biggest success was dying in prison.

Oh Wally Breen......still hanging over this hobby like a phosgene cloud on a World War I battlefield.  He had about the same effect as phosgene on almost everything he touched, too.

Edited by Mohawk
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On 9/30/2021 at 9:53 PM, Mohawk said:

Oh Wally Breen......still hanging over this hobby like a phosgene cloud on a World War I battlefield.  He had about the same effect as phosgene on almost everything he touched, too.

That was one very very strange and troubled man. That is one thing I think we can all agree with. Who would have thunk in a hobby like numismatics you would find a character like that? There is a good article in coinweek from 2015 this makes me think of. Good reflection on how we should think about balancing his contribution to the hobby with all of the bad that was also a contribution he made to this world. 
 

https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/confronting-breen/

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On 9/30/2021 at 11:34 PM, Woods020 said:

That was one very very strange and troubled man. That is one thing I think we can all agree with. Who would have thunk in a hobby like numismatics you would find a character like that? There is a good article in coinweek from 2015 this makes me think of. Good reflection on how we should think about balancing his contribution to the hobby with all of the bad that was also a contribution he made to this world. 
 

https://coinweek.com/editors-choice/confronting-breen/

That's an interesting article, Woods.  Breen was definitely a sick and troubled man and even his "contributions" to our hobby are suspect.  Breen told a lot of lies.  I wish I remembered the article title (maybe someone here will know the source I'm referring to and post it, or at least the name and author), but I read somewhere years ago that someone who worked with Breen said that if he didn't know something, he'd make it up and a lot of his fallacies made it into print and they're still haunting the hobby today.  So, even many of his supposed positive contributions to numismatics are often anything but......they're fanciful lies with no basis in reality that just popped out of Breen's head.  I'd say his toxicity definitely extended into numismatics, though telling lies about coins vastly pales in comparison to Breen's other "activities".

Edited by Mohawk
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On 9/30/2021 at 10:47 PM, Mohawk said:

That's an interesting article, Woods.  Breen was definitely a sick and troubled man and even his "contributions" to our hobby are suspect.  Breen told a lot of lies.  I wish I remembered the article title (maybe someone here will know the source I'm referring to and post it, or at least the name and author), but I read somewhere years ago that someone who worked with Breen said that if he didn't know something, he'd make it up and a lot of his fallacies made it into print and they're still haunting the hobby today.  So, even many of his supposed positive contributions to numismatics are often anything but......they're fanciful lies with no basis in reality that just popped out of Breen's head.  I'd say his toxicity definitely extended into numismatics, though telling lies about coins vastly pales in comparison to Breen's other "activities".

Of course he did. He had to sell books. Anyone can prop themselves up as an expert for a short time. But it will eventually be disproven for what it is. And numismatics lends itself greatly to this because there aren’t many true “experts” , or review committees, or even companies that would put forth research dollars for most of the research done on this topic. Most collectors are of a basic to intermediate knowledge, myself included if I’m being honest, and feel that some of the “expert scholars” must have it right. 

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I do apologize neophyte for us hijacking your perfectly valid question and post. I hope you did get a satisfactory answer. It is pretty basic and just goes back to the way the early collectors stored and displayed their collections. The term cabinets just stuck. Also I know very very little about ex-US coins and collectors, but I have heard many times many European collectors still keep their coins unslabbed and in “cabinets” still to this day. 

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On 9/30/2021 at 11:52 PM, Woods020 said:

Of course he did. He had to sell books. Anyone can prop themselves up as an expert for a short time. But it will eventually be disproven for what it is. And numismatics lends itself greatly to this because there aren’t many true “experts” , or review committees, or even companies that would put forth research dollars for most of the research done on this topic. Most collectors are of a basic to intermediate knowledge, myself included if I’m being honest, and feel that some of the “expert scholars” must have it right. 

Another interesting point and I'm sure you're right.....there was a sales angle to it, I'm sure.  And you're right about the experts in numismatics....there aren't many and those that do exist are often experts in a few very specialized areas.  And you're correct about the knowledge levels of a lot of collectors, in my experience. I've been doing this for 22 years as an adult and I'd only consider myself an expert in two very specialized areas: Late Ottoman coinage and the coinage of Roman Empress Faustina the Younger.  And that's it.  I wouldn't call myself an expert in any other areas in numismatics.  I have a lot of knowledge in a lot of areas from collecting for 22 years and selling for 13 years, but I'm certainly not an expert outside of those two areas.  I think a lot of us are similar.....we get into our areas of interest and pursue them at the expense of learning about other things.  I know I'm guilty of this.  And I'm sorry about the hijack as well.....we kind of got off track on you, Neo and I apologize.

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On 9/30/2021 at 9:23 PM, Modwriter said:

I saw the description "cabinet friction" for an older coin the other day. I keep my coin collection in an old secretary desk that I inherited.

ive got a family inherited old desk that my grandfather kept his coin collection in, i still keep some of his old collection in it just for sentimental reasons...his coins were all in old whitman blue folders n he collected them all from circulation n bank rolls...he would be totally amazed at all of the certification n grading frenzy in the hobby today...im glad u have a similar family heirloom n that u appreciate it for its history n sentimental value, the fact that u can tie it to ur coin collecting only makes it more special...reminds me of some of the similar comments that hoghead has expressed...i can identify with both of ur feelings.....

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Not feeling hijacked at all.  My question was answered, and really quite a simple answer.  The conversations around "Breen" and/or "Cabinet Friction" have been just as enlightening.  I have never heard the term "cabinet friction".  

In collecting Half Cents, I own and have studied much of the Breen work (however, I also study Manley, Eckberg, Fuhrman...etc.). I am certainly not defending Breen's character, but in old copper - he did get a lot right (and some things wrong).  He was the first to speculate that the Half Disme and 1793 Half Cent were created by the same person (later validated by Eckberg's analysis on hubs).

I look at these books/authors similar to old science books/authors.  People write to the best information they have, speculate/hypothesize on what they do not, and the bias grows over time.  Cohen's emission sequences are also questioned today, and I assume Manley's dies states will be one day, too.  It is up to us to become the expert in the discipline that we choose to study, and question with healthy skepticism anything that no longer aligns with conventional wisdom.

That's a scientific view, however, this is collecting... and you will never be able to fully remove the "voodoo", because voodoo sells coins, books... we all love a good voodoo (even when it is irrational.  Wild lies will always travel further than the boring truth).

All of this said, Been's heinous acts against children cannot be overlooked and forgiven.  I was not collecting coins when Walter Breen was alive.  It is a shame that his existence created so much trauma and abuse to children.  For that, I will agree with the rest that his contributions to the hobby are not worth the wrongdoings outside the hobby.  I believe the numismatic "black eye" never came to roost, however, the numismatic is the least important part of Breen's personal crimes - the children abused and the families that suffered by his hand are truly what matters.

 

Edited by The Neophyte Numismatist
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Very pleased to see your interest in half cents. My objections to Breen's book are that he makes unsubstantiated claims - things without clear evidence. The feud between Cohen and Breen did not help at all and divided specialist collectors. Production sequences are notoriously subjective especially when dealing to the later proof-only pieces. (Notice that I do not use the phrase "emission sequence." The word emission indicates release or issuance, and what is really being discussed the order of manufacture/production. It's fine point, but clarity of meaning is important in this or most other subjects -- except possibly politics.)

The "cabinet friction" discussion is central to one's attitude about accuracy. Surface abrasion is wear -- that is a fact. No amount of equivocation will change that; whether rose or turd, it will smell the same. Wear is the absolute discriminator between uncirculated and circulated - by basic numismatic definition.

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On 9/30/2021 at 9:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Every word of this post is a complete gem. One must be appropriately wary of everything posted by @RWB. He tends to state his own minority opinions that nearly nobody in the field agrees with, as indisputable facts. It’s annoying as all get out.

Not really.  If you place a coin in a cabinet, you will usually do so using two fingers.  If you remove it, one finger will do the trick. Raw, uncirculated coins, generally, do not suffer this fate. No coin should be pushed or pulled across any surface but if it is, evidence of the "friction" against that material, however seemingly soft, will be seen over time.  To my knowledge,, the term, AU, is neither recognized nor accepted in any country other than the United States.

It was my understanding that the cabinet, short for the "curio cabinet," glass-enclosed and felt lined, had gone the way of the automobile "glove compartment," seldom if ever used by drivers for that purpose.

Incidentally "voodoo," was invented by Hollywood. The correct term as used by those who practice that religion, once again officially recognized and observed by half the populace of that Caribbean nation Republik d'ayiti, is "vodu."

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On 9/30/2021 at 10:47 PM, Mohawk said:

  I'd say his toxicity definitely extended into numismatics, though telling lies about coins vastly pales in comparison to Breen's other "activities".

Sadly, those "activities" will likely be viewed as acceptable practices only a few decades from now.

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