1921 Peace Dollar cleaned? 0

[mini-Melanie]

Hello. First time posting so please excuse me if this was posted incorrectly.  Can you tell me if this has been cleaned? What would NGC grade this peace dollar if able? Thank you for any insight. 
Hello all and thank you for helping with figuring this peace dollar out. I realize my photos aren’t great. After work I will post close ups, out of capsule. It is disappointing to know that it may be counterfeit   More photos coming soon! I appreciate your help! 

Edited September 15, 2021 by mini-Melanie

[Woods020]

Welcome to the forum. I don’t see any evidence of cleaning, but the lighting in the pictures makes it hard to see. Do you see any fine hairline scratches on the coin?

 

By the way this looks like a really nice coin. Again the lighting can hide all kinds of things but based on these pictures you have a very nice 1921 peace dollar. 

[mini-Melanie]

Hello. Thank you for your reply. I don’t really see any fine scratches. But again I’m unsure. I will try to take better pictures. I appreciate you helping me. 

[Mohawk]

Hello and Welcome Melanie!!!

There seems to be some kind of staining or toning on Liberty's crown on the obverse.  Are you able to get a closer, straight on picture of that area of the coin?  It may be nothing but it could be an impairment of some kind.  I am unsure though, from the photos.  Overall, it looks like a nice coin, though.

[James Zyskowski]

My first thought was fake. Cheek so clean fields awesome. Sorry about the stains. 
weigh it if you can. Make sure its not attracted to a magnet.  
   I must say I believe I’m looking at one dang nice coin. 66+ maybe 67.  Handle with care. I am not the best at this. They’re on the way!  Good luck 

[Lem E]

It looks very crisp and aside from a few spots, looks very clean. Almost too clean, but I hope this a good problem free coin. If so, it is a very nice looking coin. Good luck. Welcome to the forum by the way.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Lem E
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[Woods020]

On 9/14/2021 at 9:24 PM, mini-Melanie said:

Hello. Thank you for your reply. I don’t really see any fine scratches. But again I’m unsure. I will try to take better pictures. I appreciate you helping me. 

Some more pictures would be very helpful. I’m with the others it’s almost too clean to be true. If it is as it appears in the pictures and authentic it’s a very desirable coin. Please do post some more pictures. Try to fill the screen with the coin whether on a phone or camera to the extent you can while getting a well focused image. Also crop the picture as much as possible to fill the screen. A lot of great help to be had here and we will quickly tell you what you have for sure. 

[Lem E]

Are the rays on the reverse correct? 

[Mohawk]

On 9/14/2021 at 11:32 PM, Lem E said:

Are the rays on the reverse correct? 

Oooh...good pickup LemE!!! The ray behind the N in ONE doesn't look right in the pictures.  It looks like it doesn't extend past the N like it should.  It could be something with the photos, but given how clean and well struck the coin is overall, I'm starting to get concerned about it.  Here's a reverse of a 1921 Peace Dollar, courtesy of our host's Coin Explorer to illustrate my point:

[Just Bob]

I am of the opinion that this coin is not genuine.

[Lem E]

I see at least 4 spots on the reverse alone that are questionable.

[Mohawk]

I do now, too, since I've looked at the reverse closer.....it's been A LONG time since I looked over a Peace Dollar in any sort of comprehensive way but I'm thinking we've got a fake 1921 here.

[Jason Abshier]

Doesn’t look legit to me either the rays look a lot thicker compared to an original Peace dollar … By the way welcome to the forums 

[J P M]

I was able to zoom in close with my PC and the patina looks wrong on the surface of the obverse it has some flow lines running horizontal. On the reverse the sun ray in the ONE is not long enough ?  There is a antique dealer down the road from my house that also has a half dozen Peace dollars in the same type holders 1923s and 24s all like new for $47.00 each. I'm not saying they are fake I have never looked at them close but I always wonder about them ???? 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 9/15/2021 at 7:42 AM, J P Mashoke said:

I was able to zoom in close with my PC and the patina looks wrong on the surface of the obverse it has some flow lines running horizontal

Laser-engraved dies maybe or a very harsh cleaning. Either way I agree, fake.

[J P M]

On 9/15/2021 at 7:53 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Laser-engraved dies maybe or a very harsh cleaning. Either way I agree, fake.

There are lines on the bust also Mike, which would be recessed on the die and would not get scratched when touching up a die. Also some of the letters on the reverse. The U in United and E.P on E. Pluribus are very fat in spots. I think RWB may have a thought or two on this coin.

Edited September 15, 2021 by J P Mashoke

[VKurtB]

On 9/14/2021 at 9:09 PM, mini-Melanie said:

Hello. First time posting so please excuse me if this was posted incorrectly.  Can you tell me if this has been cleaned? What would NGC grade this peace dollar if able? Thank you for any insight. 

Have you ever heard of an item looking “too good”? So good it raises suspicions? This is what you are showing us.

[mini-Melanie]

Hello all and thank you for helping with figuring this peace dollar out. I realize my photos aren’t great. After work I will post close ups, out of capsule. It is disappointing to know that it may be counterfeit   More photos coming soon! I appreciate your help! 

[VKurtB]

Just "may be". Hang in there.

[TPRC]

From a blow up, it definitely looks like harsh cleaning or altered surfaces between 3p.m. and 7 p.m. My initial concern was with a potential removal of detritus in the hair, but that coin has bigger problems. 

[Jason Abshier]

On 9/15/2021 at 11:46 AM, mini-Melanie said:

It is disappointing to know that it may be counterfeit

Thats a battle us serious collectors fight everyday in our hobby ! Takes a good eyes and knowledge of looking a lot lot of coins over the years we can spot fakes most of the fakes come from China . Some are ugly fakes look like a little kid made it and some are precise like the Peace Dollar you have but a good set of eyes can see the difference. Check on side of coin make sure it’s not inscribed “free Asian buffet only on fridays” 🤣

Edited September 15, 2021 by Jason Abshier

[VKurtB]

There are EVEN fake 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars out there, made in China, ALREADY, before the real ones have even been released.

[Jason Abshier]

@VKurtBit gotten so bad with fakery stuff the Chinese are even making fake sport memorabilia, fake old old baseball cards , fake baseball autographs . One guy I work with collects a lot graded baseball cards and memorabilia he told me it’s getting really bad with Chinese fakes lately 

[RWB]

Counterfeit. Stamp it with "COPY" or destroy it. Report the seller to the FBI and CBP. If you bought the fake from Colorado, contact the state Attorney General, also.

[Just Bob]

OP, the post above mine is by the man who wrote the book on Peace dollars. And, I mean that literally - the name at the bottom of the book pictured below is his. If he says a Peace dollar is fake, I see no need to pursue the matter further.

 

 

[Coinbuf]

No need for additional photos, that coin screams fake.

[Just Bob]

On 9/15/2021 at 1:46 PM, powermad5000 said:

 Even the best specimens of 1921 Peace dollars I have seen have what seems to be "wear" on Liberty's hair and on the top of the eagles feathers. It is not wear but the quality of the first set of dies on the first year of the first run of a new series of coin.

 

Not quite. It was not the quality of the dies. The high relief of the design resulted in inadequate metal flow, causing the higher areas of the coin, such as the hair over Liberty's ears and the eagle's breast feathers, to not strike up fully with a single strike, at least on most coins. This was resolved by lowering the relief on the coins dated 1922 and later.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Just Bob

[RWB]

Here's an authentic, well struck 1921 for comparison.

Here's the fake. (Possibly copied from a US-made counterfeit.)

Edited September 15, 2021 by RWB

[RWB]

FYI - Low relief 1922-1928 coins were made from a new model by de Francisci. In this instance he possibly went too far in reducing relief and ended up what a flat, poorly defined design. I suggest that it could have been improved with a little more time and attention by both the Mint and the artist; however, Treasury Secretary Mellon's only interest was in redeeming Pittman silver bonds. It is unlikely he would have sanctioned any delay.

[mini-Melanie]

Wow! That confirms it! It is counterfeit Very disappointed but I knew you all could help me! Contacting seller.