AU-59: MYSTERY SOLVED! 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:06 AM, zadok said:

not with all the counter culturalists n revisionists we have today...beware those insufficiently_thoughtful_persons will be tearing down all the rooster statues next....

"You cannot serve both God and mammon."  The only country that appreciates, treasures and worships its past is India 🇮🇳 although that is now changing. [Out of respect for the Guidelines -- and an abundance of caution, I won't state my position on the worship of idols.]  😉  

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:18 AM, zadok said:

ur overlooking the simple fact that registry sets just go by the grades on the label n not the actual coins, some or many of ur coins could actually be not as described n u wouldnt know until in hand, not all finest knowns r that n not all 67s r really 67s...thats one of the negatives of registry sets but its the best we have at the present n yes if one chooses to participate one has to go with the tpg label even if incorrect...cousin vinny chooses to not play the registry game n im sure his hand selected coins r superior to many coins in the respective registry sets...i have registry sets n also have dups with my sets that r far superior to the registry coins, just the facts of collecting n common sense says buy what u need n also buy what u know is better....

I am working on one registry set that I have been keeping private. It’s a fairly short set that I have been building with coins I buy raw and have graded myself. I’ll unveil it when the set is complete, after five more coins.

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:49 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

"You cannot serve both God and mammon."  The only country that appreciates, treasures and worships its past is India 🇮🇳 although that is now changing. [Out of respect for the Guidelines -- and an abundance of caution, I won't state my position on the worship of idols.]  😉  

 

On 9/7/2021 at 10:58 AM, VKurtB said:

I am working on one registry set that I have been keeping private. It’s a fairly short set that I have been building with coins I buy raw and have graded myself. I’ll unveil it when the set is complete, after five more coins.

who knew...as u said previously, adjust n evolve or get left behind....best of both worlds, hand select n hope tpg agrees n register ur set, cant ask for more....

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:49 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

"You cannot serve both God and mammon."  The only country that appreciates, treasures and worships its past is India 🇮🇳 although that is now changing. [Out of respect for the Guidelines -- and an abundance of caution, I won't state my position on the worship of idols.]  😉  

...i think God is a world coin collector...not sure bout mammon could be a bullion trader?...i do have a british india collection but my cows still sleep in the barn, roosters in the coop....

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:02 AM, zadok said:

 

who knew...as u said previously, adjust n evolve or get left behind....best of both worlds, hand select n hope tpg agrees n register ur set, cant ask for more....

That was my main disappointment at Rosemont. I was hoping to shorten up that “need” list, and it didn’t happen. But I did snag one at Dalton, GA the next week. That one was already in a NGC slab, an oddity for me. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:04 AM, zadok said:

...i think God is a world coin collector...not sure bout mammon could be a bullion trader?...i do have a british india collection but my cows still sleep in the barn, roosters in the coop....

My cows are searchers of cuds.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Clean coins by definition can't have luster, right ?

Clean coins, or cleaned coins? A difference of cataclysmic proportions. The Mint sells clean, uncleaned, oftentimes "brilliant uncirculated" coins, right?

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:06 AM, VKurtB said:

My cows are searchers of cuds.

hadnt thought of that...do u have to pay taxes on cows in 'bama, i know pachyderms get a free ride...

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Clean coins by definition can't have luster, right ?

The irony is that cleaning on a proof may actually create the look of something approaching luster.

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:09 AM, zadok said:

hadnt thought of that...do u have to pay taxes on cows in 'bama, i know pachyderms get a free ride...

I’m keeping my clowder of Nittany Lions on the down low. Shhhh. I am a long standing Eagles fan. I know better than to wear my true colors in enemy territory. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:11 AM, VKurtB said:

I’m keeping my clowder of Nittany Lions on the down low. Shhhh.

smart decision....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:18 AM, zadok said:

ur overlooking the simple fact that registry sets just go by the grades on the label n not the actual coins, ..... n not all 67s r really 67s...

I have had to really root through my heavy artillery chest to find this gem suitably disturbing to foist upon the coin collecting aficionados among us...

I make the following claim without supporting evidence of any kind.  As regarding Roosters 🐓  only -- Moderators gird your loins for this outrageous remark:  The grading of high-tier coins, such as MS-67, as practiced by the European counterparts of U.S. TPGS is far superior due to the sheer volume and experience of evaluating coins more commonly available and evaluated locally by native experts most familiar with them.

"I know you're not suggesting the expertise of TPG as practiced by PCGS stateside, does not equal that of the services it performs in Paris?"

Yes, and not even our own @VKurtB and @Alex in PA. have greater fonts or growling dogs to emphasize that little-known fact more than I have!    😉  

[Woods020]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:11 AM, VKurtB said:

I’m keeping my clowder of Nittany Lions on the down low. Shhhh. I am a long standing Eagles fan. I know better than to wear my true colors in enemy territory. 

Roll Tide! 

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:41 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I have had to really root through my heavy artillery chest to find this gem suitably disturbing to foist upon the coin collecting aficionados among us...

I make the following claim without supporting evidence of any kind.  As regarding Roosters 🐓  only -- Moderators gird your loins for this outrageous remark:  The grading of high-tier coins, such as MS-67, as practiced by the European counterparts of U.S. TPGS is far superior due to the sheer volume and experience of evaluating coins more commonly available and evaluated locally by native experts most familiar with them.

"I know you're not suggesting the expertise of TPG as practiced by PCGS stateside, does not equal that of the services it performs in Paris?"

Yes, and not even our own @VKurtB and @Alex in PA. have greater fonts or growling dogs to emphasize that little-known fact more than I have!    😉  

I find that completely plausible.  I would always trust graders in the “home market” more. 

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:37 AM, Woods020 said:

Roll Tide! 

They both face Auburn this year. I still can’t believe I get the Penn State v. Ball State game this Saturday on FS1. Same time as the ‘Bama game so the remote will be busy. The “Last Channel” button will be rubbed raw 

Edited September 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I find that completely plausible.  I would always trust graders in the “home market” more. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:58 AM, VKurtB said:

I am working on one registry set that I have been keeping private. It’s a fairly short set that I have been building with coins I buy raw and have graded myself. I’ll unveil it when the set is complete, after five more coins.

Forget all the On-Site reporting.  This little tidbit should have been Banner Headline News. Popular Post ➕ Plus.

Herewith, the opening paragraph of "The Archer-Shee Case," [of a small boy in serious trouble with the British Empire; a story with a denouement that does credit to all parties concerned.]

"FROM time to time, since the turn of the century, there has issued from the press of a publishing house in London and Edinburgh a series of volumes called the Notable British Trials, each volume dedicated to some case in the criminal annals of England or Scotland.  Each would contain not only the testimony of witnesses, the photographs of exhibits, the arguments of counsel, the dicta from the bench, and the verdict of the jury, but also an introductory essay nicely calculated to enthrall those readers who collect such instances of human violence, much as other madmen collect coins or autographs or stamps."  - Alexander Woollcott, 1946

Whether transmitted by infection or contagion, I will defer to the medical experts.  I merely wish to acknowledge and express my heartfelt gratitude to you for honoring us all with your participation, albeit covert, in the formal certification process.  

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:41 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I have had to really root through my heavy artillery chest to find this gem suitably disturbing to foist upon the coin collecting aficionados among us...

I make the following claim without supporting evidence of any kind.  As regarding Roosters 🐓  only -- Moderators gird your loins for this outrageous remark:  The grading of high-tier coins, such as MS-67, as practiced by the European counterparts of U.S. TPGS is far superior due to the sheer volume and experience of evaluating coins more commonly available and evaluated locally by native experts most familiar with them.

"I know you're not suggesting the expertise of TPG as practiced by PCGS stateside, does not equal that of the services it performs in Paris?"

Yes, and not even our own @VKurtB and @Alex in PA. have greater fonts or growling dogs to emphasize that little-known fact more than I have!    😉  

cant comment on pcgs's euro graders, have not purchased any coins that they have graded....have to accept ur first hand knowledge on their capabilities till proven otherwise or affirmed....

 

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:54 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Forget all the On-Site reporting.  This little tidbit should have been Banner Headline News. Popular Post ➕ Plus.

Herewith, the opening paragraph of "The Archer-Shee Case," [of a small boy in serious trouble with the British Empire; a story with a denouement that does credit to all parties concerned.]

"FROM time to time, since the turn of the century, there has issued from the press of a publishing house in London and Edinburgh a series of volumes called the Notable British Trials, each volume dedicated to some case in the criminal annals of England or Scotland.  Each would contain not only the testimony of witnesses, the photographs of exhibits, the arguments of counsel, the dicta from the bench, and the verdict of the jury, but also an introductory essay nicely calculated to enthrall those readers who collect such instances of human violence, much as other madmen collect coins or autographs or stamps."  - Alexander Woollcott, 1946

Whether transmitted by infection or contagion, I will defer to the medical experts.  I merely wish to acknowledge and express my heartfelt gratitude to you for honoring us all with your participation, albeit covert, in the formal certification process.  

I have a second one in the planning phase, but that’s a far bigger set, and some VERY tough dates in it, in high grades. Common in low grades. As I told the “registry dude” at Rosemont, the registry system creates a certain “discipline and focus” when working on a set, even if that set is never made public. I’ve been using the Registry’s “poorer cousin”, the Collector’s Society, for as long as it has existed.

Edited September 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:07 PM, zadok said:

cant comment on pcgs's euro graders, have not purchased any coins that they have graded....have to accept ur first hand knowledge on their capabilities till proven otherwise or affirmed....

 

One could argue that my sample size is statistically insignificant -- and they would be right, but, pardon the poor analogy, if you were interested in Sicilian pizza 🍕 and perhaps some authentic cannoli pastry-to-go, would you go to a fine Italian restaurant or a local Mexican taco joint? 🌮   😉 

[Cat Bath]

It's nice to be able to discuss aspects of grading without reference to plastic or stickers.

Some folks are really into strike and insist their coins all be sharp & crisp.

I do appreciate a proof like strike on a saint but die cracks are kinda cool also. I'm not sure where true technical (old style) grading stands on strike. If it's really bad, I'm assuming they have to eventually call it an error.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Cat Bath
awkward wording.

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

One could argue that my sample size is statistically insignificant -- and they would be right, but, pardon the poor analogy, if you were interested in Sicilian pizza 🍕 and perhaps some authentic cannoli pastry-to-go, would you go to a fine Italian restaurant or a local Mexican taco joint? 🌮   😉 

The best Italian “to go” entrees and bakery items I ever ate were in the Olde Uptown section of Harrisburg, PA. We had no decent taco joints.

[RWB]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:21 PM, Cat Bath said:

I'm not sure where true technical (old style) grading stands on strike

The "grade" of a coin should depend only on measurable quantities - such as relative wear, or quantity and severity of surface marks for uncirculated coins. "Strike," or rather design detail, could be in this category if we had accurate reference images/models for what the design was supposed to look like, AND what was the best possible circulating coinage detail. As it is, we have those for only a few coins, so detail has to go into the opinion bin, along with all the pointless gnomes such as "full steps" "full bands" "full head" and "full-o-bologna." 

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 7:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

One could argue that my sample size is statistically insignificant -- and they would be right, but, pardon the poor analogy, if you were interested in Sicilian pizza 🍕 and perhaps some authentic cannoli pastry-to-go, would you go to a fine Italian restaurant or a local Mexican taco joint? 🌮   😉 

thinking.....

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB  Respectfully, can all the attributes considered in evaluating a coin be reduced to numbers, plus signs and stars? I maintain they cannot.  I don't recall ever examining a coin and not wondering how was this grade determined.

***** *****

I earlier made a comment regarding the competency of U.S. TPGS and their European counterparts which I believed would be suppressed or challenged.  Neither happened which is just as well because I do not have a definitive answer.  No one bothered to ask me how I could tell whether the coin I have the most familiarity with, the Rooster, was encapsulated here or overseas.

It used to be if you asked anyone where U.S. currency was made, you'd get a standard response: the BEP in Washington, D.C. Then Fort Worth, Texas was commissioned and the microprinted letters FW would be a dead giveaway.

On encapsulations PCGS-graded in Paris -- this is strictly speculation on my part brought about in part by a collector who objected to the catalog classification, Gad-1064 or Gad-1064a, [an abbreviation of Viktor GADOURY] which appears on their labels and not, to my knowledge, on coins slabbed here which merely read "France." I do not know if NGC encapsulations bear a similar such distinguishing characteristic because I purchased all eight (8) I own, as featured on my Set Registry, with the lofty label "The Herostratus Hoard," at post position 8 or 9, directly from sources in the U.S.  On this aspect of grading, I welcome fact or speculation from any source.  🐓 

[VKurtB]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB  Respectfully, can all the attributes considered in evaluating a coin be reduced to numbers, plus signs and stars? I maintain they cannot.  I don't recall ever examining a coin and not wondering how was this grade determined.

***** *****

I earlier made a comment regarding the competency of U.S. TPGS and their European counterparts which I believed would be suppressed or challenged.  Neither happened which is just as well because I do not have a definitive answer.  No one bothered to ask me how I could tell whether the coin I have the most familiarity with, the Rooster, was encapsulated here or overseas.

It used to be if you asked anyone where U.S. currency was made, you'd get a standard response: the BEP in Washington, D.C. Then Fort Worth, Texas was commissioned and the microprinted letters FW would be a dead giveaway.

On encapsulations PCGS-graded in Paris -- this is strictly speculation on my part brought about in part by a collector who objected to the catalog classification, Gad-1064 or Gad-1064a, [an abbreviation of Viktor GADOURY] which appears on their labels and not, to my knowledge, on coins slabbed here which merely read "France." I do not know if NGC encapsulations bear a similar such distinguishing characteristic because I purchased all eight (8) I own, as featured on my Set Registry, with the lofty label "The Herostratus Hoard," at post position 8 or 9, directly from sources in the U.S.  On this aspect of grading, I welcome fact or speculation from any source.  🐓 

For those few who may not know, the name Viktor Gadoury is attached to the French equivalent of the “Red Book”. The “Spink” of France.

[RWB]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Respectfully, can all the attributes considered in evaluating a coin be reduced to numbers, plus signs and stars? I maintain they cannot.

I agree, they cannot. And that is exactly why the grade of a coin - it's state of preservation - must not include personal opinion about luster, desirability, strike and other non-empirical criteria. The condition ("grade") is the fundamental characteristic of a coin or medal....properly standardized, it is the "facts" about a coin. This is just as much a part of the coin as its provenance.

The coin's condition ("grade") is, of course, merely one criteria buyer and seller can use to determined the marketability and collector interest in a coin. The condition ("grade") is also one of the aspects that can be quantified - we have, and have had for decades, the tools to do this; quickly, reliably, objectively.

The fundamental fault in current TPG-type "grading" is that it attempts to blend too many obscure and esoteric concepts into a single, unreliable number or adjective. If TPGs and collectors focused on the facts, the free market of buyers and sellers would take care of the rest.

Edited September 8, 2021 by RWB

[Woods020]

On 9/7/2021 at 7:59 PM, RWB said:

The "grade" of a coin should depend only on measurable quantities - such as relative wear, or quantity and severity of surface marks for uncirculated coins. "Strike," or rather design detail, could be in this category if we had accurate reference images/models for what the design was supposed to look like, AND what was the best possible circulating coinage detail. As it is, we have those for only a few coins, so detail has to go into the opinion bin, along with all the pointless gnomes such as "full steps" "full bands" "full head" and "full-o-bologna." 

Roger,

I am truly not trying to be argumentative, and you would certainly know much better than I, but you are saying we don’t have reference photos, artists models, or proof coins of these series you reference to compare the design elements to? I find it hard to believe we don’t have references, specifically on coin series this recent, to show the design?
 

I don’t see how full bands/steps/heads is bologna? If anything they are clearly measurable qualities you are asking for. And I agree standards are very important and in some ways lacking. But the issue isn’t that we can’t compare the coins to a master design really is it?

[GBrad]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:11 AM, VKurtB said:

Shhhh. I am a long standing Eagles fan.

Not to change the subject here (but maybe we all need a breath of air ).... here ya go VKurt. 100%  Authenticated real Philadelphia Eagles helmet autographed by none other than "Concrete Charlie" himself, Hall of Fame 1967.  Thought I had a better pic than this, sorry for the glare, but this was a present I got for my business partner several years ago whom was born and raised in Philly and a lifelong Eagles fan!! It brought tears to his eyes.  

[zadok]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:32 AM, VKurtB said:

For those few who may not know, the name Viktor Gadoury is attached to the French equivalent of the “Red Book”. The “Spink” of France.

and here all the time i thought the "spink" was in egypt....duh