AU-59: MYSTERY SOLVED! 1 1

[RWB]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:21 AM, Woods020 said:

Roger,

I am truly not trying to be argumentative, and you would certainly know much better than I, but you are saying we don’t have reference photos, artists models, or proof coins of these series you reference to compare the design elements to? I find it hard to believe we don’t have references, specifically on coin series this recent, to show the design?
 

I don’t see how full bands/steps/heads is bologna? If anything they are clearly measurable qualities you are asking for. And I agree standards are very important and in some ways lacking. But the issue isn’t that we can’t compare the coins to a master design really is it?

Yep. We do not have a clear original model, or master coin for most early US coins. Even for more modern coins there are many without a design master available - 1921 Peace dollars, for example, have zero specimens that fully realize the US Mint design cast; what's a 1968 fully struck Lincoln cent look like? How about a 1965 quarter or a 1948 half dollar?

The bands/steps/heads are bologna because a single "full" feature does not mean the coin design was fully realized. Standing Liberty quarters are an outstanding example of misleading "full strike" terminology. A full head detail coin can have missing shield stars or rivets or stripes, or lost toes; a full steps Jefferson nickel can easily have missing head detail; none of the 1936-42 proofs have full design detail, etc., etc. The clutter of misleading terms leads to deception about the quality of a coin's true detail, and a false belief that a specific coin is somehow better than another.

[MarkFeld]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:20 AM, RWB said:

I agree, they cannot. And that is exactly why the grade of a coin - it's state of preservation - must not include personal opinion about luster, desirability, strike and other non-empirical criteria. The condition ("grade") is the fundamental characteristic of a coin or medal....properly standardized, it is the "facts" about a coin. This is just as much a part of the coin as its provenance.

The coin's condition ("grade") is, of course, merely one criteria buyer and seller can use to determined the marketability and collector interest in a coin. The condition ("grade") is also one of the aspects that can be quantified - we have, and have had for decades, the tools to do this; quickly, reliably, objectively.

The fundamental fault in current TPG-type "grading" is that it attempts to blend too many obscure and esoteric concepts into a single, unreliable number or adjective. If TPGs and collectors focused on the facts, the free market of buyers and sellers would take care of the rest.

If you were to assign numerical grades that didn't take strike, luster and eye-appeal into consideration, in the case of uncirculated coins, in particular, those grades would be largely meaningless. For example, a coin with few marks, but dull luster, a poor strike and negative eye-appeal would receive a high grade. What good would that do?

[VKurtB]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:48 AM, GBrad said:

Not to change the subject here (but maybe we all need a breath of air ).... here ya go VKurt. 100%  Authenticated real Philadelphia Eagles helmet autographed by none other than "Concrete Charlie" himself, Hall of Fame 1967.  Thought I had a better pic than this, sorry for the glare, but this was a present I got for my business partner several years ago whom was born and raised in Philly and a lifelong Eagles fan!! It brought tears to his eyes.  

Somewhere I have a framed copy of him standing over an unconscious Frank Gifford.

[GBrad]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:32 PM, VKurtB said:

Somewhere I have a framed copy of him standing over an unconscious Frank Gifford.

[VKurtB]

On 9/8/2021 at 12:36 PM, GBrad said:

The only Ivy League college player ever drafted first overall in the NFL draft.

[GBrad]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:43 PM, VKurtB said:

The only Ivy League college player ever drafted first overall in the NFL draft.

 He was one bad dude!

Edited September 8, 2021 by GBrad

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:56 AM, zadok said:

and here all the time i thought the "spink" was in egypt....duh

[Or a former boxer professional with a missing tooth and, hence, gap-toothed smile.]

[RWB]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:05 PM, MarkFeld said:

If you were to assign numerical grades that didn't take strike, luster and eye-appeal into consideration, in the case of uncirculated coins, in particular, those grades would be largely meaningless. For example, a coin with few marks, but dull luster, a poor strike and negative eye-appeal would receive a high grade. What good would that do?

It would do exactly what meaningful "grading" should do: establish an equal empirical base for every graded coin. From that base of equality, opinions would then flourish and become part of a useful and meaningful discussion of value to individuals.

As a practical matter, the street value of many coins would not change. A lot might go up, and some would go down. But the entire structure would be open, honest and without corporate or anonymous bias. Grade inflation would cease - although owners would have a field day with exaggeration; but they do that anyway.

Bottom line: let facts tell the basic story (just as in research) and keep opinion separate.  OK....ok....I hear a great grinding flutter in the wallets of some - so what?

Be truthful or begone!

[RWB]

But what about the standards....?

Easy. Circulation, use the ANA standards. Programming is little more than a series of If-Then statements: conditionals implementing the visual and written descriptions - basically the same as done now but with objective consistency.

Easy. Uncirculated, use the common range overlaps for the major TPGs. The programming is a set of counts/area vs area each side calculate the mean.

Easy. One standard deviation range; mean both sides will break ties.

Easy. Proof like, use major TPG definitions, then mean reflected beam dispersion from 6 points each side. Also works for legitimate brilliant proofs, etc. (Sandblast and matte proof would not work.)

A high schooler could write most of this with a little supervision and database help.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:05 PM, MarkFeld said:

If you were to assign numerical grades that didn't take strike, luster and eye-appeal into consideration, in the case of uncirculated coins, in particular, those grades would be largely meaningless. For example, a coin with few marks, but dull luster, a poor strike and negative eye-appeal would receive a high grade. What good would that do?

Consider, if you will, my quandary: purchasing a coin graded by NGC as MS-66 and gratuitously described as a "frosty gem" minus any mention of a thumbprint so clearly delineated as to enable the FBI's Latent Print Division to determine the identity of the careless handler.

In a phone call to the owner, I objected to an allegedly Mint State Brilliant Uncirculated, "frosty gem," bearing indisputable evidence of human mishandling, a sign of circulation.

The seller offered to take the coin back which I declined because the "damage" was done not by him or his firm but a TPGS.

Upshot:  I assured him I would do nothing to sully his long unblemished record -- and kept my promise.

To detract from the detraction, I will adopt the Antiques Roadshow/Pawn Stars approach to divestiture and resolutely maintain the coin in question was strongly rumored to have been recovered as a good luck piece from the personal effects of noted architect Stanford White when he was shot by Hary Kendall Thaw on the rooftop of the old Madison Square Garden over the latter's fixation on the alienation of affections of Florence Evelyn Nesbitt, a/k/a The Girl in the Velvet Swing," over 100 years ago.

 

[VKurtB]

On 9/8/2021 at 4:38 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Consider, if you will, my quandary: purchasing a coin graded by NGC as MS-66 and gratuitously described as a "frosty gem" minus any mention of a thumbprint so clearly delineated as to enable the FBI's Latent Print Division to determine the identity of the careless handler.

In a phone call to the owner, I objected to an allegedly Mint State Brilliant Uncirculated, "frosty gem," bearing indisputable evidence of human mishandling, a sign of circulation.

The seller offered to take the coin back which I declined because the "damage" was done not by him or his firm but a TPGS.

Upshot:  I assured him I would do nothing to sully his long unblemished record -- and kept my promise.

To detract from the detraction, I will adopt the Antiques Roadshow/Pawn Stars approach to divestiture and resolutely maintain the coin in question was strongly rumored to have been recovered as a good luck piece from the personal effects of noted architect Stanford White when he was shot by Hary Kendall Thaw on the rooftop of the old Madison Square Garden over the latter's fixation on the alienation of affections of Florence Evelyn Nesbitt, a/k/a The Girl in the Velvet Swing," over 100 years ago.

 

Never detract from your detractions. It confuses people. Thumbprints are tolerated much more than even tiny nicks. The era of the “nick pickers” ended decades ago. Some dinosaurs who no longer collect have failed to keep up. But they sure can write books with material regurgitated from a NARA. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB  Respectfully, can all the attributes considered in evaluating a coin be reduced to numbers, plus signs and stars? I maintain they cannot.  I don't recall ever examining a coin and not wondering how was this grade determined.

***** *****

I earlier made a comment regarding the competency of U.S. TPGS and their European counterparts which I believed would be suppressed or challenged.  Neither happened which is just as well because I do not have a definitive answer.  No one bothered to ask me how I could tell whether the coin I have the most familiarity with, the Rooster, was encapsulated here or overseas.

It used to be if you asked anyone where U.S. currency was made, you'd get a standard response: the BEP in Washington, D.C. Then Fort Worth, Texas was commissioned and the microprinted letters FW would be a dead giveaway.

On encapsulations PCGS-graded in Paris -- this is strictly speculation on my part brought about in part by a collector who objected to the catalog classification, Gad-1064 or Gad-1064a, [an abbreviation of Viktor GADOURY] which appears on their labels and not, to my knowledge, on coins slabbed here which merely read "France." I do not know if NGC encapsulations bear a similar such distinguishing characteristic because I purchased all eight (8) I own, as featured on my Set Registry, with the lofty label "The Herostratus Hoard," at post position 8 or 9, directly from sources in the U.S.  On this aspect of grading, I welcome fact or speculation from any source.  🐓 

....i passed on ur concern n anxiety bout discerning the source of certified roosters tween california n paris to my mentor, he allowed u a brief respite from his more compelling efforts n granted u insight....Carnac the Magnificent intoned to Zadok the Lesser to be relayed to QA the Inquisitive the following...."the tpg in paris has a small cadre of authenicators, graders n certifiers that perform onsite duties n if happen to receive items they r not qualified to make determinations then transfer such items to their counterparts in california...as for ascertaining the geographical source of the determinations on the after market, there r no distinguishing characteristics tween the end products from either source; however, if the Inquisitive one should choose to go to the verify certification site on the tpg webpage n view the coin in question he may notice that some coins r shown in the entire slab as opposed to just the coin, the cadre in paris normally choose to use this technique as opposed to the cadre in california who tend to use just the coin....however, this is not conclusive, as customers in the usa have the option of requesting either option"...his Magnificence deemed this to be adequate for his Inquisitiveness's needs....he further offered the following addendum, his nephew Artemis has placed a pox on the Herostratus Hoard for burning down his temple...beware....

[Henri Charriere]

@zadok a/k/a The Great Zadok.  Three observations:  1). your personality is more buoyant when you resort to the use of upper-case, i.e., Capital letters, however sparingly;  2). the universe of all coins ever "minted" is infinite. It only seems natural that one TPG would consult their Californian counterpart on USA-produced coins. (I suspect @MarkFeld would may know more about this.); and 3). Yet another [two-part] hoard of gold coins was discovered in France  but they date back nearly 500 years as noted in a dispatch from CNN which @RWB was kind enough to provide elsewhere.  The name Herostratus and the gravity of the arson he committed is generally unknown to the public. My use of his name, "stricken from every pylon," etc. is entirely literary license considering the crime occurred centuries before Roosters were minted -- but thanks for the warning ⚠️   🐓 

[VKurtB]

Does any of this conversation start to answer why I’ve ponied up the Pounds Sterling for my wife and I to get the VIP tour at the Royal Mint in Llansitrant, Wales, while having already gotten the regular one? I am a big fan of the Royal Mint’s work, and I can get the “up close and personal” tour of many things including donning clean suits and getting into the proof coin die preparation rooms and the Mint’s private collection. I can’t even pay to get that experience stateside. I don’t get jollies rummaging through dusty documents. I like to talk directly with people myself, read their expressions, and interact with them. My method gets me REAL first hand data, not sanitized government documents. Remember, I spent 13 years working in state government and 4 in election administration at the county level. If you think our document archives are/were usable for meaningful research, think again. You get sanitized versions. You have to talk with those who are/were “there” if you want the straight story.

[zadok]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:39 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@zadok a/k/a The Great Zadok.  Three observations:  1). your personality is more buoyant when you resort to the use of upper-case, i.e., Capital letters, however sparingly;  2). the universe of all coins ever "minted" is infinite. It only seems natural that one TPG would consult their Californian counterpart on USA-produced coins. (I suspect @MarkFeld would may know more about this.); and 3). Yet another [two-part] hoard of gold coins was discovered in France  but they date back nearly 500 years as noted in a dispatch from CNN which @RWB was kind enough to provide elsewhere.  The name Herostratus and the gravity of the arson he committed is generally unknown to the public. My use of his name, "stricken from every pylon," etc. is entirely literary license considering the crime occurred centuries before Roosters were minted -- but thanks for the warning ⚠️   🐓 

just trying to close one more loop, u seemed interested in trying to determine how to differentiate tween paris n calf certs...providing u the best info available....no clue to what extent mark mite be privy to re pcgs certs...the paris submission site purely a business decision with both positives n negatives, but still comes down to the experiences n knowledge of individual graders regardless where located...yea the french hoard was on internet, interesting...as for capitalization, i only have one box of capital letters n use sparingly...id stay away from ephesus though if i were u....

[zadok]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:39 PM, VKurtB said:

Does any of this conversation start to answer why I’ve ponied up the Pounds Sterling for my wife and I to get the VIP tour at the Royal Mint in Llansitrant, Wales, while having already gotten the regular one? I am a big fan of the Royal Mint’s work, and I can get the “up close and personal” tour of many things including donning clean suits and getting into the proof coin die preparation rooms and the Mint’s private collection. I can’t even pay to get that experience stateside. I don’t get jollies rummaging through dusty documents. I like to talk directly with people myself, read their expressions, and interact with them. My method gets me REAL first hand data, not sanitized government documents. Remember, I spent 13 years working in state government and 4 in election administration at the county level. If you think our document archives are/were usable for meaningful research, think again. You get sanitized versions. You have to talk with those who are/were “there” if you want the straight story.

...can sympathize...spent few hundred/thousand hours rummaging thru docs at congressional library few decades back n ditto many hours up close n personal to the national coin collection...can attest the latter more fun than the former...but with proper authorization one can access the real not sanitized docs, can attest there r no jollies there...only prob i had was that all the real first hand people for area i was interested in were all dead, no jollies there either...hopefully u n better half can successfully make ur trip to wales in the next year or so before the next ice age....

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:55 AM, zadok said:

just trying to close one more loop, u seemed interested in trying to determine how to differentiate tween paris n calf certs...providing u the best info available....no clue to what extent mark mite be privy to re pcgs certs...the paris submission site purely a business decision with both positives n negatives, but still comes down to the experiences n knowledge of individual graders regardless where located...yea the french hoard was on internet, interesting...as for capitalization, i only have one box of capital letters n use sparingly...id stay away from ephesus though if i were u....

Labeling merely speculation on my part.  As far as Ephesus, I am sure she was there many years ago, but your wish (sage advice) is my command.  

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, zadok said:

...can sympathize...spent few hundred/thousand hours rummaging thru docs at congressional library few decades back n ditto many hours up close n personal to the national coin collection...can attest the latter more fun than the former...but with proper authorization one can access the real not sanitized docs, can attest there r no jollies there...only prob i had was that all the real first hand people for area i was interested in were all dead, no jollies there either...hopefully u n better half can successfully make ur trip to wales in the next year or so before the next ice age....

[Yes, attrition does take its toll.  It was just my luck, locally at the Main Library here in New York, that the person with whom I wished to converse had just retired and the young woman who took his place, a newly-hired college graduate, had limited experience but clearly lacked the "institutional knowledge I sought.  I told her when I showed my wife around the richly appointed Rose [study/research]huge Room upstairs, she smiled pleasantly, and whispered in my ear: "Ba'am fait ti ba pou ou," loosely translated as, "Let me give you a little kiss." Apparently, with her love of architectural detail, she had never seen a pair of simple though huge, study halls [outfitted with oak tables and brass incandescent lamps] so vast, tall- windowed, high-ceilinged -- and quiet, all you'd hear is the occasional rustling of turned pages. [Computers on the study side, through which tourists are directed, are outfitted with headsets, or you may bring your own.]

[VKurtB]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:55 AM, zadok said:

just trying to close one more loop, u seemed interested in trying to determine how to differentiate tween paris n calf certs...providing u the best info available....no clue to what extent mark mite be privy to re pcgs certs...the paris submission site purely a business decision with both positives n negatives, but still comes down to the experiences n knowledge of individual graders regardless where located...yea the french hoard was on internet, interesting...as for capitalization, i only have one box of capital letters n use sparingly...id stay away from ephesus though if i were u....

My device doesn’t even ALLOW me to go all ‘e e cummings’ on ya to the extent zadok does. It auto-capitalizes about half the time. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 11:19 AM, VKurtB said:

My device doesn’t even ALLOW me to go all ‘e e cummings’ on ya to the extent zadok does. It auto-capitalizes about half the time. 

Spellchecker:  Dictates what you write, how you write it and must be over-ridden several times to accommodate my writing style and non-English words. No accent aigus, cedillas, graves, umlautes and that Bulbuous B you used once!  😉 

[zadok]

On 9/10/2021 at 10:41 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Labeling merely speculation on my part.  As far as Ephesus, I am sure she was there many years ago, but your wish (sage advice) is my command.  

its a place not a she....but stay away from both...

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:47 PM, zadok said:

its a place not a she....but stay away from both...

(Oops!  I neglected to mention my sister visiting my aunt in Istanbul many many years ago and mentioning Ephesus and Troy as among the places she had gone to, evidently forgetting to mention that salient fact.  I have no trouble staying away from her as I am permanently tethered to my wife and ensconced in New York while while she continues to "serve" at the pleasure of wildfires and the San Andreas fault in the Great Sovereign State of California.)

[zadok]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:42 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

(Oops!  I neglected to mention my sister visiting my aunt in Istanbul many many years ago and mentioning Ephesus and Troy as among the places she had gone to, evidently forgetting to mention that salient fact.  I have no trouble staying away from her as I am permanently tethered to my wife and ensconced in New York while while she continues to "serve" at the pleasure of wildfires and the San Andreas fault in the Great Sovereign State of California.)

i cant think of anything great bout california....hasnt been any greatness there since the great communicator passed...

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:59 PM, zadok said:

i cant think of anything great bout california....hasnt been any greatness there since the great communicator passed...

Sequoiadendrum giganteum. That's about it, and the few left are threatened.

[VKurtB]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:33 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Sequoiadendrum giganteum. That's about it, and the few left are threatened.

I like the coastal ones, just over the hump from Sausalito.

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB  "Oral history," a concept that provided the basis for Joseph Mitchell's book, Joe Gould's Secret, is something you would likely approve of.  In the same manner the reflections and eyewitness accounts of those directly involved in historical events are recorded for posterity, with suitable inclination and funding, and before all the principals are no longer available for interviews, an oral history could be documented for the use of future generations. This would, by extension, include the Treasury Department, the Mint and its branches, the Federal Reserve Bank -- and even Ft. Knox, to the extent clearance allows.

[VKurtB]

On 9/13/2021 at 6:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB  "Oral history," a concept that provided the basis for Joseph Mitchell's book, Joe Gould's Secret, is something you would likely approve of.  In the same manner the reflections and eyewitness accounts of those directly involved in historical events are recorded for posterity, with suitable inclination and funding, and before all the principals are no longer available for interviews, an oral history could be documented for the use of future generations. This would, by extension, include the Treasury Department, the Mint and its branches, the Federal Reserve Bank -- and even Ft. Knox, to the extent clearance allows.

I’m sorry, wouldn’t that require management staff at the Mint to be at least sentient beings? You realize, I hope, how little empirical evidence of that exists. Every bad image of federal bureaucratic nonsense lives large at the United States Mint. It’s almost cartoonish in its intensity, and is unavoidable as long as the federal government insists on allowing political appointees to override  career staff. Literally NO other decent sized country does that. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by VKurtB

[Mr.Bill347]

I remember driving through a Sequoiadendrum giganteum when I was just a boy. It has since collapsed. 😔 

[Mr.Bill347]

The Pioneer Cabin Tree, also known as The Tunnel Tree, was a giant sequoia in Calaveras Big Trees State Park, California. It was considered one of the U.S.'s most famous trees, and drew thousands of visitors annually. Wikipedia

[Henri Charriere]

@VKurtB  Somewhere out there, toiling in complete anonymity, are employees, or ex-employees, whose institutional memories are unmatched.  I would like to see/hear their stories in their own words before the opportunity is lost forever. (Or, in the alternative, rely on on-site reports.)   🤔