A little Peace dollar challenge 1 1

[RWB]

This coin is offered by an ebay seller where it is called Deep Mirror Proof Like (DMPL)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393536381847?hash=item5ba098a397:g:-~wAAOSwiuRhKUfL&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&campid=5338461489&customid=&toolid=10001&mkevt=1

What do you think, and why?

[RWB]

PS: Here's a detail image from the obverse. This is as sharp as I could get the image - the original is fuzzy.)

Edited August 30, 2021 by RWB

[MarkFeld]

Edited.

Edited August 30, 2021 by MarkFeld

[RWB]

Shhhhhhh...we want others to figure it out. (You're right, of course.)

[Mohawk]

But it is a DMPL....a deeply, massively polished loser.

[Just Bob]

Doesn't look "deep mirror," and doesn't look uncirculated, much less "+++."  At $9.99 plus shipping, the price is right for junk silver, though.

[JT2]

On 8/29/2021 at 10:53 PM, Mohawk said:

But it is a DMPL....a deeply, massively polished loser.

PERFECT ANSWER!!............pitting at the neck......polish lines around the numerals... no detail what so ever on the top wing......the mohawk has it....  

[RWB]

But --- how is "polished" determined? What visual clues are there to separate "polished coin" from "polished die?"

[Henri Charriere]

As it's been said, "The road to perdition is paved with good intentions." Little would be accomplished debating the merits or demerits of a coin essentially devoid of melt value. 

If anyone feels that strongly about DiMPLes and FreCKLes on women, they should REPORT THIS ITEM to eBay and CONTACT THE SELLER with a piece of his mind making full use of the 1,000 character spaces he has so generously provided.

Of greater interest to me, and possibly others is the offering being made by Canyon City Coins farther down the page:  A 1921-P NGC MS-65, PEACE SILVER DOLLAR, BLAZING BLAST WHITE.

The former Peace Dollar, as of this writing, racked up 0 bids and 0 bidders, with 4 days and 6 hrs. remaining on the clock. That skepticism speaks volumes.

The latter piece is being offered for $4,899.95, OBO, with free shipping.

Granted, Quintus is but an amateur.  But let's be honest here.  With a verdict already rendered on the former (as can readily be surmised by the comments thus far accrued) would you rather beat a double zero (with more exclamation points on its description page than silver dollars have reeds) or scrutinize a coin worthy of a professional autopsy from the finest minds in numismatics.  😉 

[zadok]

"finest minds in numismatics" ???....just where mite one find those?...

[DWLange]

But --- how is "polished" determined? What visual clues are there to separate "polished coin" from "polished die?"

The former has incuse lines, while the latter has raised lines.

As far as the example illustrated, little study is needed. I just knows it when I sees it.

[RWB]

The purpose is know the reasons for making a decision, not merely the decision. There must be no numismatic Reign of Terror by ignorance.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:21 PM, zadok said:

"finest minds in numismatics" ???....just where mite one find those?...

There is only one way to settle this matter firmly and with finality and that is to buy the coin in question.  But first, a few random "facts"...

First and foremost, the coin's melt value is $18.57 based on a spot of $24.01, as of today, August 30, 2021.

In "decent condition" a genuine 1923 is worth anywhere from $20 to $30. A VF is worth $25; an EF is worth $27 with an "UNC" worth $30 and a "MS" worth $60. (I know. Don't ask.) An MS-65 is worth $110. (And for those interested, a source I never heard of and was not otherwise identified, claims the finest known 1922, minted a year earlier, is worth $41,125. All are welcome to dispute these figures none of which seem realistic.

When I read the wordplay on incuse, courtesy of @DWLange, I wanted to recuse myself but loose ends do not agree with me so I'm in it to win it. I should know by Friday whether I have placed the winning bid and, will promptly forward it, at my expense in the interest of knowledge, to anyone who is interested in examining it in hand and thereby put an end to what I regard as an exercise in [expletive deleted] futility.

Stay tuned...

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Addition of defensive unsolicited editorial comment.

[RWB]

No one need buy the ebay coin. One need not become a sacrificial lamb (with garlic and mint sauce) to answer the question.

[zadok]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There is only one way to settle this matter firmly and with finality and that is to buy the coin in question.  But first, a few random "facts"...

First and foremost, the coin's melt value is $18.57 based on a spot of $24.01, as of today, August 30, 2021.

In "decent condition" a genuine 1923 is worth anywhere from $20 to $30. A VF is worth $25; an EF is worth $27 with an "UNC" worth $30 and a "MS" worth $60. (I know. Don't ask.) An MS-65 is worth $110. (And for those interested, a source I never heard of and was not otherwise identified, claims the finest known 1922, minted a year earlier, is worth $41,125. All are welcome to dispute these figures.

When I read the wordplay on incuse, courtesy of @DWLange, I wanted to recuse myself but loose ends do not agree with me so I'm in it to win it. I should know by Friday whether I have placed the winning bid and, will promptly forward it, at my expense in the interest of knowledge, to anyone who is interested in examining it in hand and thereby put an end to what I regard as an exercise in [expletive deleted] futility.

Stay tuned...

 

u didnt answer the question, curious minds want know....no clue on this peace dollar or any other, i dont own any or want any unless for melt....they just like morgans u can buy all u want until theres no money left....none r rare.....

[MarkFeld]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There is only one way to settle this matter firmly and with finality and that is to buy the coin in question.  But first, a few random "facts"...

First and foremost, the coin's melt value is $18.57 based on a spot of $24.01, as of today, August 30, 2021.

In "decent condition" a genuine 1923 is worth anywhere from $20 to $30. A VF is worth $25; an EF is worth $27 with an "UNC" worth $30 and a "MS" worth $60. (I know. Don't ask.) An MS-65 is worth $110. (And for those interested, a source I never heard of and was not otherwise identified, claims the finest known 1922, minted a year earlier, is worth $41,125. All are welcome to dispute these figures.

When I read the wordplay on incuse, courtesy of @DWLange, I wanted to recuse myself but loose ends do not agree with me so I'm in it to win it. I should know by Friday whether I have placed the winning bid and, will promptly forward it, at my expense in the interest of knowledge, to anyone who is interested in examining it in hand and thereby put an end to what I regard as an exercise in [expletive deleted] futility.

Stay tuned...

 

“UNC” and “MS” should mean the same thing - uncirculated - so using both terms is redundant. But if you’re going to do that, you should at least value them the same. And how did you come up with the rest of your pricing?

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:06 PM, MarkFeld said:

“UNC” and “MS” should mean the same thing - uncirculated - so using both terms is redundant. But if you’re going to do that, you should at least value them the same. And how did you come up with the rest of your pricing?

Cruising the internet utilizing Google and relating the neither here nor there terminology irresponsibly used. None of the pricing is realistic. I no longer own a Red Book and do not know, much less, have ever seen a Greysheet. (What I do have, somewhere I believe, are tickets to the Beatles concert at Shea Stadium (1965, unused, but common) Seattle Slew's winning ticket for the Triple Crown at Belmont Racetrack (1977) and three intact tickets for Woodstock (1969, unused.) 

I do not have a single authoritative source to consult on coin pricing, U.S. or Foreign, but intend to submit the winning bid on the 1923 Peace Dollar @RWB cited so interested NGC members can conduct a proper post-mortem and arrive at a definitive diagnosis as to the claim(s) being made by the seller. After all is said and done, and everyone has had an opportunity to conduct an excursion into alleged incusions, and the like, I will gladly donate the piece which I suspect will not be worth the cost of certification.  I do not know if the seller, who boasts quite a collection of similar coins suffering from the same malady, is palming off an authentic replica or genuine counterfeit (terms our Just Bob objects to) but we will know in fairly short order. I appreciate your interest. 😉 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Avoiding a complete re-write.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/30/2021 at 7:26 PM, RWB said:

No one need buy the ebay coin. One need not become a sacrificial lamb (with garlic and mint sauce) to answer the question.

Fortunately, I am ignorant. I will only need 3 mins with my forbidden 30-power loupe to make my assessment.  @VKurtBdemands in-hand inspection and his wish is my command. I am assuming all costs and every member so interested can get a shot at this without artificial time constraints.  I greatly appreciate everyone's indulgence in accommodating me. And if a Rooster by chance surfaces unexpectedly in all the hullabaloo, so much the better. Like I am fond of saying, I truly love this place.  eBay can be tricky. No doubt .  But if someone outbids me, I will know I am not the only certifiably insane person in cyberspace. Good nite to all, and to all a good nite!   🐓 

[RWB]

Actually, in-hand inspection of usually unnecessary for this kind of examination.

Since no one is jumping in with a more detailed comment, this might be helpful to others. (Md. Lange and Mark are welcome to jump in at any time.)

The coin is supposed to be a DMPL 1923 silver dollar.

1.      There is rim damage at several points which is an indicator of circulation.

2.      Portions of the relief show polishing. This is inconsistent with die polishing.

3.      On a die, the highest portions are the fields (i.e. “table”) and it is these areas that are polished when a die is resurfaced or repaired. Thus, polish almost never affects the relief unless it is intentional.

4.      A look at the composite shows each relief element is surrounded by a frosted “halo.” This does not occur is the die is polished.

5.      The detail shows this halo more clearly. It also shows that interiors of relief elements – especially letters and numbers with closed centers – are either poorly polished or unpolished. (Notice the center loops of “3” and the top curl of “2.”) Also, closely spaced letters, as in “WE” lack polish between letters.

All of these are indications that the coin was polished, not the die. The coin is therefore altered. Whether the seller is merely ignorant, or a fraudster cannot be determined.

Edited August 31, 2021 by RWB

[Jason Abshier]

And someone put a bid on it ? That polishing job is so terrible you could see hazy rubbing on back of the eagle terrible , terrible just terrible ! Who ever has intention buying that coin after winning the bid stay tuned we’ll be seeing a new member on here soon “hey you guys ! I’m newbie whatta think about my new peace dollar ? I remember my grandpappy used have a collection of them“  

then went you tell them the problem with their coin, they may or may not take it so well and choose to fight back. Just stay tuned 

[Just Bob]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:11 PM, Jason Abshier said:

And someone put a bid on it ? That polishing job is so terrible you could see hazy rubbing on back of the eagle terrible , terrible just terrible ! Who ever has intention buying that coin after winning the bid stay tuned we’ll be seeing a new member on here soon “hey you guys ! I’m newbie whatta think about my new peace dollar ? I remember my grandpappy used have a collection of them“  

then went you tell them the problem with their coin, they may or may not take it so well and choose to fight back. Just stay tuned 

You didn't read every Post in this thread, did you? QA bid on the coin to see what it looks like in hand.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Just Bob

[Jason Abshier]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:42 PM, Just Bob said:

You didn't read every Post in this thread, did you? QA bid on the coin to see what it looks like in hand.

@Just Bob nah ! I didn’t read it all just first the post with pictures I clicked the link saw eBay bid 🤣

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:42 PM, Just Bob said:

You didn't read every Post in this thread, did you? QA bid on the coin to see what it looks like in hand.

Actually, that bid was not mine.  My strategy is to wait -- and pounce.  Sometimes I place a bid, depending on increments required, at the next acceptable dollar level + one, two, or three cents. Other times, I will go straight to melt to surprise and eliminate the bargain hunters + a few cents. If the highest bid, is close to melt value, say, $18., and two-dollar increments are mandatory, I will bid $20.02.  Your average person, unaware of that will bid $20., find out that is insufficient, and decide to abandon further bidding. Any way you look at it, I will win [ideally] by a few cents, but lose because the coin + postage will not have been worth my time and expense -- unless silver skyrockets as I expect it to inevitably.

[Just Bob]

I stand corrected.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:08 PM, Just Bob said:

I stand corrected.

It was not my intention to derail a perfectly good thread, but I viewed the vast inventory of the seller in question and what I found was somebody who bastardized the Sheldon Scale and invented his own grading system and, quite frankly, deserves to be discredited and discarded. The more you look, the more Red Flags🚩 you find. @RWB, the OP, in his initial post, cited the seller's description, and asked: "What do you think and why?"  I upped his request a notch by hoping to make this a hands-on experience, by acquiring what Just Bob has aptly termed "junk silver" and making it available to any interested party at my expense, postage, shipping, insurance if the USPS deems it necessary, in short, the whole rigamarole.  I do hope other comments will be submitted in the interim per the OP's request, and will keep members abreast of any developments. I, myself, lacking appraisal experience hope to learn a few things I was unaware of. It's never too late to learn and the outlay is minimal. We all benefit and the pleasure is all mine.     🐓 

[zadok]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It was not my intention to derail a perfectly good thread, but I viewed the vast inventory of the seller in question and what I found was somebody who bastardized the Sheldon Scale and invented his own grading system and, quite frankly, deserves to be discredited and discarded. The more you look, the more Red Flags🚩 you find. @RWB, the OP, in his initial post, cited the seller's description, and asked: "What do you think and why?"  I upped his request a notch by hoping to make this a hands-on experience, by acquiring what Just Bob has aptly termed "junk silver" and making it available to any interested party at my expense, postage, shipping, insurance if the USPS deems it necessary, in short, the whole rigamarole.  I do hope other comments will be submitted in the interim per the OP's request, and will keep members abreast of any developments. I, myself, lacking appraisal experience hope to learn a few things I was unaware of. It's never too late to learn and the outlay is minimal. We all benefit and the pleasure is all mine.     🐓 

dont forget buy the book first.....

[MarkFeld]

On 8/31/2021 at 6:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Actually, that bid was not mine.  My strategy is to wait -- and pounce.  Sometimes I place a bid, depending on increments required, at the next acceptable dollar level + one, two, or three cents. Other times, I will go straight to melt to surprise and eliminate the bargain hunters + a few cents. If the highest bid, is close to melt value, say, $18., and two-dollar increments are mandatory, I will bid $20.02.  Your average person, unaware of that will bid $20., find out that is insufficient, and decide to abandon further bidding. Any way you look at it, I will win [ideally] by a few cents, but lose because the coin + postage will not have been worth my time and expense -- unless silver skyrockets as I expect it to inevitably.

You won’t get the coin for $20.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:26 PM, MarkFeld said:

You won’t get the coin for $20.

No, I never said I would. And neither will the losing bidder(s). To illustrate my strategy -- noting bidders gravitate toward even numbers -- I expect to be the "winner," by a nose: $20.02.  But if that bid proves insufficient, I will modify my strategy accordingly. eBay is a game I learned to play well. My curiosity knows no bounds.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:08 PM, Just Bob said:

I stand corrected.

You have been vindicated. On a hunch, I checked that 1923 Peace Dollar thread just now only to find out bidding has begun in earnest and the actual retail price of the coin in question is well north of $25.00 -- exclusive of postage.  To paraphrase Gene Hackman in the movie, "Enemy of the State," I must be incredibly smart or incredibly stupid.  We are easily talking $30-plus for a coin which, after time-consuming travel and deliberate examination will easily exceed the alloted time limit for free returns. For members' information, most of the 12 or so bids made, inch-worm style, were placed by me and it is difficult to ascertain how much farther up they will go.  I believe we have well-exceeded the point where foolishness resides in all its magnificent splendor -- to simply make or discredit a point and the saddest part is the coin in question already does not justify its cost. There are certainly some slick operators out there. So, in closing, I regret to inform @MarkFeld that $20. doesn't cut it and neither does $30. What we do have is a clown laughing all the way to the bank -- with many more hours yet to go and plenty more in stock where that came from.

[Jason Abshier]

What gets me this seller been selling wizzed and polished coins for a while this year alone this seller made over 2,000+ sales positives only 2 negatives within 12 months .. I can’t believe over 20 bids been made on a Junk coin basically damage ! How is it even possible someone can sell junk like that on eBay are people really that bad at seeing the damage, flaws , grading done to a crappy coin? I find it hard to believe .. this seller even said if “anyone has feedback of 10 they will be removed from bidding” … What’s a matter afraid the new guy “bidder” won’t pay for the crappy coins ? Guess the seller doesn’t like being ripped off but they don’t mind ripping off someone else with whizzed and polished coins