Brilliant Uncirculated 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

The following is the reply I received today from one of the Top Three bullion dealers requesting their definition of the topic of this post as it related to an ad they placed regarding an "original" (1904) French 20-franc gold rooster:

"BU condition will fall within the range of MS-60 to MS-70."

Comments, anyone?

[GoldFinger1969]

That's not a range, that's a homestead ! 

[Jason Abshier]

Most of the time the French would say Fleur De coin for a coin that is about MS65. 

I been working on my German coins this year I’ve noticed a lot European dealers and german dealers saying

“Stempelglanz” (for coins around MS65-MS70) 

“Fast Stempelglanz” to describe a coin Ch-unc. (MS63-MS65)

“Vorzuglich Stempelglanz” describes a coin that is UNC. (MS60-MS63)

the European market grading standards isn’t anything like the USA grading standards 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Jason Abshier

[thebeav]

As for myself, BU would indicate a grade between 60 and 70 with no color or toning.

Uncirculated would indicate a grade between 60 and 70 with color or toning.

That's why numerical grades were born. There wasn't enough information otherwise.....

[Alex in PA.]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:42 AM, Jason Abshier said:

the European market grading standards isn’t anything like the USA grading standards 

Absolutely correct.  As I stated elsewhere, since the creation of the European Union, Europe has been slowly disassociating themselves from anything remotely American created.  I cannot say whether this is just 'chest thumping' or a definite need to prove themselves more correct, more better and more professional than we here in the States.  But this is just 'My Opinion'.

[MarkFeld]

If used accurately, the term should indicate that the coins are brilliant (as as in untoned and not dull) and uncirculated. However, since other modifiers, such as “choice”, “gem” amd “superb” are also used, generally, it would be unrealistic to expect higher grade, rather than lower grade examples, when coins are merely described as “brilliant uncirculated”.

Edited August 7, 2021 by MarkFeld

[RWB]

This little quote from 1868 seems relevant.

There will always be “ grumblers” at every Coin Sale; a class who examine, critically, every piece catalogued “very fine,” “proof” or “uncirculated,” in the hope of being able to discover some little blemish or tinge of a blemish on the surface of the coin, and woe betide the unlucky author who perpetrated the written description of the coins.

At the Randall Coin Sale it seems there was present some “fault finder” who has

expressed dissatisfaction at the terms used in describing coins. The word “gem” seems to have been a bugbear to some dissatisfied attendant at the late sale, and another objects to the word

“ uncirculated” in toto —the latter being of those literal translators, who think that the sole act of taking the coins fresh from the dies, and passing it to another, forever settles the question against the use of the term “uncirculated.”

Of one thing, we feel assured, the sale was a success, and every collector thus far heard from expresses unqualified satisfaction with the coins purchased at this sale.[1]

---

[1] “The ‘Gem’ Coin Sale,” Mason’s Coin and Stamp Collectors’ Magazine. December 1868. 107.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm surprised there was that much interest in coin shows/sales in 1868, only 3 years after the Civil War ended.

Edited August 7, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:57 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Absolutely correct.  As I stated elsewhere, since the creation of the European Union, Europe has been slowly disassociating themselves from anything remotely American created.  I cannot say whether this is just 'chest thumping' or a definite need to prove themselves more correct, more better and more professional than we here in the States.  But this is just 'My Opinion'.

True. Both. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 11:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm surprised there was that much interest in coin shows/sales in 1868, only 3 years after the Civil War ended.

It was just a smaller number of knuckleheads then. More now, but not as many as in the 1960’s. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

Right now I have a British 1935 Crown at NGC for grading. I bought it across the counter at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019. When it returns from NGC, I’ll let you know what grade the British dealer put on it, and what NGC does. I think it’ll be a story with a moral to it. Should be about two more weeks now. 
 

Remember, there is no such thing as AU in classic British grading. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[World Colonial]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:58 PM, VKurtB said:

Right now I have a British 1935 Crown at NGC for grading. I bought it across the counter at Chard’s of Blackpool, England in December of 2019. When it returns from NGC, I’ll let you know what grade the British dealer put on it, and what NGC does. I think it’ll be a story with a moral to it. Should be about two more weeks now. 

I have only bought at auction from England.  The TPG grades did not correlate consistently with the description.  But in your case since you bought it in person, I'm going to guess in advance that the NGC grade will be higher, or else you would not have bought it.

[Jason Abshier]

@VKurtBi wished you showed us that coin before shipping it off for grading make us guess the grade then when you get it back show us what dealer graded it at what NGC graded it out to be … I’m not sure maybe at end of this year or sometime next year. I’ll be sending in a small bulk load 10-15 coins for grading for my personal collection I’m thinking about listing them on here have folks guess the grade when they come back see what they graded out to be 

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:04 PM, World Colonial said:

I have only bought at auction from England.  The TPG grades did not correlate consistently with the description.  But in your case since you bought it in person, I'm going to guess in advance that the NGC grade will be higher, or else you would not have bought it.

Good guess. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:23 PM, Jason Abshier said:

@VKurtBi wished you showed us that coin before shipping it off for grading make us guess the grade then when you get it back show us what dealer graded it at what NGC graded it out to be … I’m not sure maybe at end of this year or sometime next year. I’ll be sending in a small bulk load 10-15 coins for grading for my personal collection I’m thinking about listing them on here have folks guess the grade when they come back see what they graded out to be 

I wish I was able to. I still don’t have an acceptable, to me, photo setup at my current home. We dropped about 600 square feet in size, and I haven’t found “the place” for it yet. And no, phone pics will NEVER satisfy me. No chance in “heck”. I’m still shopping for the right gear, although my microscope can handle smaller coins, but not Crown size. Even half dollars are too big. 

[RWB]

On 8/7/2021 at 12:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm surprised there was that much interest in coin shows/sales in 1868, only 3 years after the Civil War ended.

There were no "coin shows." But sales from stores were enough to create a comfortable, if busy, living for a small group of dealers. They also sold stamps, artifacts, stuff taken from Native Americans, etc.

[Henri Charriere]

[Note from OP...

When I began this thread less than 24 hours ago, I anticipated outrage.  Instead, I got a verbatim quote from a source dating to 1868, and a quiet resignation to reality and ho-hum acquiescence.  Then I took a closer look at those who've responded and realized no one identified with the inherent problem because, to my knowledge, none are Set Registrants.  Oh, they may assemble a type set, but they will consciously avoid the trials and tribulations of taking chances: paying $450., or well above melt value for a 🐓 they hope will turn out to be the Mint State grade they need for no other reason than the dearth of certified original roosters out there. An MS-66 "restrike" generally runs $600 and an MS-67 $1200; the likelihood a bullion dealer will give you an MS-68 (none of which have been certified) or higher, is pure unadulterated fantasy..

Do mistakes occur?  All the time. A FDC coin I bought from Europe, which is defined in France as a range of from MS-65 to MS-70 was forwarded without delay to a TPGS which routinely encapsulated it as a certified MS-64+. Now what do you do having spent a fortune for a higher price, formal grade and new chassis?

By the way, what is the FMV of a raw coin you bought in USD which were then converted to euros via bank wire transfer at additional additional cost"  The melt price of a French 20-franc gold rooster is $325. 

Common Rooster dilemmas: a). Buying a fully vaccinated, certified Rooser for top price, or b). Buying a Rooster, hope it is a high enough B.U. and of or within the needed Mint State designation sought.

(My Want (pure fantasy) List is small but if any member in his travels is inadvertently made aware of any "original"French 20-Francs gold rooser, 1899-1913 and 1914 at MS 65 of better and a "restrike" dated 1910, 19+3 or 1914 offered for sale, PM me immediately without delay.  🐓

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 1:23 PM, Jason Abshier said:

@VKurtBi wished you showed us that coin before shipping it off for grading make us guess the grade then when you get it back show us what dealer graded it at what NGC graded it out to be … I’m not sure maybe at end of this year or sometime next year. I’ll be sending in a small bulk load 10-15 coins for grading for my personal collection I’m thinking about listing them on here have folks guess the grade when they come back see what they graded out to be 

It is just one of a form with 5 various British Crowns in it. I think the 1935 is the 3rd best of them, ignoring age. There are a 1951 and 1960 that may earn "superlative" comments. I own four 1951 Festival of Britain pieces, and the one I sent puts my other 3 to shame. It was also bought by me at the Bloomsbury Coin Fair in London, Jolly Ol'.

Edited August 7, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

On 8/7/2021 at 5:13 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Common Rooster dilemmas: a). Buying a fully vaccinated, certified Rooser for top price, or b). Buying a Rooster, hope it is a high enough B.U. and of or within the needed Mint State designation sought.

c) Go look at it in your own hands under the right light, and decide then whether to buy it, and then send it for grading.- The VKurtB Method.

[Jason Abshier]

@Quintus Arrius seems like you want highest rooster you can get for the highest grade achievement ? Only way do that is to look at the roosters in person before buying . When I order coin or bid on coins in European auctions , I know not to have my hopes set too high for very high grade coins when the dealer is describing the coin showing a photo with a coin or a medal that has few carbon spots on it. 

When a dealer overseas says a coin is MS65-MS70 (I don’t know why they use MS70 grade classic coins don’t grade out that high anyway) . For classic coin to even get MS65 that coin has be in best shape minimal bag marks or nicks and proper desire toning (not dullish aged hazy toning). Most of time when I win or buy a coin that dealer stated that is BU it’s mostly a typical UNC. That will probably grade out MS62-MS63 … Thats okay with me I didn’t over pay for the coin and it’s for my Raw coin collection I don’t have intentions having any graded. Overseas they have different “style” of grading they probably think us Americans are just too picky with our coin collecting hobbies when it comes to owning the “best of the best we can get graded” but I don’t fall for dealers overseas or any dealer even in USA saying a raw coin will grade out to be MS65-MS70 over the internet with a few pictures