MapmanSRQ Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Can anyone tell me what NGC Pedigree "Indra Seno Collection" means? I couldn't find any info online or at NGC but see it is on various denominations, various countries, modern coins and even Morgans. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woods020 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 It means it was part of a private collection, and the owner of the private collection named it the Indra Seno Collection. I am unfamiliar with this collection or the owner. I think it’s a little overused on the collections. Only a few collections from very influential numismatist, in my simple opinion, are the only ones I would consider additive to the coin. Certainly not DL Hansen labels everywhere these days. But someone may be able to chime in and name the owner of that collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapmanSRQ Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 Thanks for your response. I noticed it on nearly all of the Canadian T Rex coins, from multiple sellers on eBay. It had an unusual name so I didn't consider that until I started seeing it on Libertads and other coins. It would seem to be a thing to do for a family gift, or for heirs so it didn't make much sense to be selling them, but he must have been selling his collection. I wonder if NGC can remove it if I send it in for a new label? Thanks for responding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 3 hours ago, MapmanSRQ said: I wonder if NGC can remove it if I send it in for a new label? Yes, NGC will relabel it for a fee. Looks like it would probably cost you around $40 to have it ReHoldered, I'd leave it. James Zyskowski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, MapmanSRQ said: Can anyone tell me what NGC Pedigree "Indra Seno Collection" means? It "means" nothing. [And...it's 'provenance' not 'pedigree'.] Edited June 30, 2021 by RWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said: Yes, NGC will relabel it for a fee. Looks like it would probably cost you around $40 to have it ReHoldered, I'd leave it. To put that another way... it would cost you FOUR THOUSAND cents to have that distraction removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 3 hours ago, RWB said: It "means" nothing. [And...it's 'provenance' not 'pedigree'.] not totally accurate....pedigree can refer correctly to persons, animals and things...... Alex in PA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 29 minutes ago, zadok said: not totally accurate....pedigree can refer correctly to persons, animals and things...... Only living, reproducing creatures can have a pedigree (a list of ancestors). Anything else has a provenance (chain of ownership). powermad5000 and Jason Abshier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Abshier Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 55 minutes ago, RWB said: Only living, reproducing creatures can have a pedigree (a list of ancestors). Anything else has a provenance (chain of ownership). I’ve never seen coins breed before to obtain a pedigree , when folks use that word I think of a dog’s pedigree and it’s ancestry where it came from . but it sometimes mistakenly used in coin collector’s world . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) What BS. I had a pedigree once and the lady did a great job on my nails. the background or history of a person or thing, especially as conferring distinction or quality. "the scheme has a long pedigree" synonyms: origin · place of origin · birthplace · spring · wellspring · fount · starting point · history · provenance · derivation · root · etymology · beginning · genesis · start · rise · cause · author · originator · initiator · creator · inventor · architect · father · mother · provenience · fountainhead · begetter · radix Edited June 30, 2021 by Alex in PA. zadok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Those "synonyms" are pretty shaky.... Pedigree does not imply origin - that is for words like "genesis" or "beginning" or archeological use of "provenience," or the others shown above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 What Are Pedigrees and Why Are They Important? A pedigree is a list that documents the ownership sequence of a specific coin. It is the numismatic equivalent of a legal title chain. In the world of art and antiques, the pedigree of an object is referred to as its "provenance." On some coins, pedigrees can be traced back to the date of issue. On others, the pedigree information is far more sketchy and may only include recent owners. Pedigrees are especially important on very rare coins. On coins that are controversial, such as a 1913 Liberty Nickel or an 1804 Silver Dollar, a lone pedigree serves to establish the fact that a specific coin is genuine. On other coins, it helps to establish if a coin is among the finest known for its specific issue. Douglas Winter Welcome to 'Sleepy Hollow' - where every answer you get leads no where. Pedigree = ???????? Homework time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 II. Collections That Are Regarded As Important For Pedigree Purposes a. The ELIASBERG Collection Louis Eliasberg was a financier from Baltimore who began collecting coins in the 1940's. In 1942, he was able to purchase the Clapp Collection. This was a collection formed by a father and son from Pittsburgh between the 1890's and the 1930's. It contained superb coins from famous auctions held from 1895 to 1915 as well as pieces that had been purchased directly from the United States mints at their time of issue. The Clapp Collection was very advanced for its era as it contained not only very high quality coins but also significant die varieties and types as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Sorry, it's still misused and incorrect -- unless the coins have been reproducing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, RWB said: Only living, reproducing creatures can have a pedigree (a list of ancestors). Anything else has a provenance (chain of ownership). again not accurate..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 43 minutes ago, RWB said: Those "synonyms" are pretty shaky.... Pedigree does not imply origin - that is for words like "genesis" or "beginning" or archeological use of "provenience," or the others shown above. ur opinion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 42 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said: What Are Pedigrees and Why Are They Important? A pedigree is a list that documents the ownership sequence of a specific coin. It is the numismatic equivalent of a legal title chain. In the world of art and antiques, the pedigree of an object is referred to as its "provenance." On some coins, pedigrees can be traced back to the date of issue. On others, the pedigree information is far more sketchy and may only include recent owners. Pedigrees are especially important on very rare coins. On coins that are controversial, such as a 1913 Liberty Nickel or an 1804 Silver Dollar, a lone pedigree serves to establish the fact that a specific coin is genuine. On other coins, it helps to establish if a coin is among the finest known for its specific issue. Douglas Winter Welcome to 'Sleepy Hollow' - where every answer you get leads no where. Pedigree = ???????? Homework time. amen..... Alex in PA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicdonna Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 NGC definition of a pedigree Pedigrees A pedigree is generally used to indicate a coin’s past or present ownership. In numismatics, as in the art world, a coin’s provenance can be an important factor in determining its authenticity, and a coin that was once part of a famous collection may be more desirable to some collectors. Submitters to NGC may request that a coin formerly owned by a famous collector be pedigreed to that collector on the NGC certification label. NGC must receive sufficient evidence to confirm the requested pedigree. Examples of this evidence may include: The submitted coin can be matched to a picture in a catalog of the collection prepared by a reputable auction house or dealer. The submitted coin is received in a sealed flip or holder prepared by a reputable auction house or dealer that indicates the name of the collection. NGC pedigrees will typically be the current or previous owner’s surname followed by the word “Collection.” In the case of a few very select collections, the word “Collection” is omitted on the NGC certification label. These include well-known and widely publicized collections such as Garrett, Eliasberg, Pittman, and Norweb. A submitter to NGC may request that NGC pedigree a coin to his or her own collection on the NGC certification label. In virtually all cases, the pedigree must be the submitter’s surname followed by the word “Collection.” Note: If the submitter’s surname is the same as a famous person’s surname, NGC may reject the pedigree or require that the submitter’s given name and surname be used. Companies may request to add their name to an NGC certification label. NGC will generally not pedigree a coin to a company unless that request comes directly from that company. NGC will sometimes add a pedigree to indicate that a coin was part of a hoard or came from a specific mint-issued set. NGC may also use a pedigree to mark an event (such as a trade show) or to provide additional identifying information about the coin. Alex in PA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 16 hours ago, MapmanSRQ said: Can anyone tell me what NGC Pedigree "Indra Seno Collection" means? As you have no doubt discovered by now, your opening line on what appears to be your first post has descended into pinpoint chaos. I am 70 and have been collecting coins, on and off since the 1960's. I do not wish to take sides, not because the primary combatants are older and wiser, but because my father (not from this country and now deceased) taught me early on, Under no circumstances are to tell anyone they are "wrong." He suggesting referral to an authoritative source, but while that may have been sage advice in the last century, an entirely new crop of word combinations and abominations and mutations that do not technically exist and acronyms which cloud a name's original name, have arisen and taken on alternate meanings. I am old-fashioned. Rather than criticize what I am overwhelmed with on a daily basis, I try to stick to basics. Two examples I would Iike to suggest: You are very likely to hear the word "pedigree" at a venue like the Westminster Dog Show. And it is impossible to watch an episode of "Antiques Roadshow" without hearing the word "provenance" coming up repeatedly. This has become so ingrained in me that the use and misuse of these words I have mentally delegated their debate and discussion to the newer generation(s). I used to enjoy reading William Safire's column, On Laguage in the NYT and Andy Rooney's disciplined rants on a wide variety of subjects, at least until they passed away apparently without equals. I apologize for the turn your post took but am gratified you managed to get an answer to your question. You are more than welcome to feel free to drop in again at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapmanSRQ Posted June 30, 2021 Author Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) I got it! Understood! Thanks! I only called it a Pedigree because that is what NGC called it: https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2849224-005/69/ My bad, but I didn't list it. You can tell NGC they have it wrong. I'm good either way! Thanks! NGC Cert # 2849224-005 NGC Description 2003 G.BRITAIN BRITANNIA BUST S2PND NGC Grade MS 69 DPL Pedigree Indra Seno Collection Label NGC Standard Brown Edited June 30, 2021 by MapmanSRQ edit James Zyskowski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 Given a choice between what NGC says and what RWB says, I’m always gonna be leaning toward the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus1967 Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 I'm friends with Indra. His collection is unreal. Plus he has connections overseas and can get a lot of coins not available here in the U.S. Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 12 hours ago, VKurtB said: Given a choice between what NGC says and what RWB says, I’m always gonna be leaning toward the former. You also will be incorrect. Pedigrees and Numismatics July 23, 1999 I. What Are Pedigrees and Why Are They Important? A pedigree is a list that documents the ownership sequence of a specific coin. It is the numismatic equivalent of a legal title chain. In the world of art and antiques, the pedigree of an object is referred to as its "provenance." On some coins, pedigrees can be traced back to the date of issue. On others, the pedigree information is far more sketchy and may only include recent owners. 25 April 2017 Pedigree is all about tracing a coin’s journey through time. If a collector can show that a specific coin passed through the hands of interesting people, whether historical personages or famous and admired coin collectors, it makes that coin itself more interesting because people can imagine where it’s been and feel more connected to that fascinating journey. There’s a built in brag factor to owning that kind of coin. Even people who aren’t interested in coins may want to hear that kind of story. Of course, today’s collectors can create pedigree themselves by building interesting collections that will pique the interest and admiration of other collectors. Any collector who makes a name for him or herself in the coin collecting world is automatically increasing the value of his own collection. Most of the factors that make coins valuable are already established, but this one is not, and it’s a way for any coin enthusiast to make a mark in coin history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 20 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said: You also will be incorrect. Pedigrees and Numismatics July 23, 1999 I. What Are Pedigrees and Why Are They Important? A pedigree is a list that documents the ownership sequence of a specific coin. It is the numismatic equivalent of a legal title chain. In the world of art and antiques, the pedigree of an object is referred to as its "provenance." On some coins, pedigrees can be traced back to the date of issue. On others, the pedigree information is far more sketchy and may only include recent owners. 25 April 2017 Pedigree is all about tracing a coin’s journey through time. If a collector can show that a specific coin passed through the hands of interesting people, whether historical personages or famous and admired coin collectors, it makes that coin itself more interesting because people can imagine where it’s been and feel more connected to that fascinating journey. There’s a built in brag factor to owning that kind of coin. Even people who aren’t interested in coins may want to hear that kind of story. Of course, today’s collectors can create pedigree themselves by building interesting collections that will pique the interest and admiration of other collectors. Any collector who makes a name for him or herself in the coin collecting world is automatically increasing the value of his own collection. Most of the factors that make coins valuable are already established, but this one is not, and it’s a way for any coin enthusiast to make a mark in coin history. Now ask me if I’d take Doug Winter’s word for it before NGC. Also a big “nope”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex in PA. Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 44 minutes ago, VKurtB said: Also a big “nope”. Hard Head! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 19 hours ago, MapmanSRQ said: I only called it a Pedigree because that is what NGC called You can tell NGC they have it wrong. Let's see now... I've got 6 Warnings on my permanent record ➕ 3 jaywalking summonses presumably for desecrating the inviolate Guidelines... I think I will decline your kind invitation until I get a handle on the newer shot-callers on board. I eat, not because I'm hungry, but to be social. And my only meal, taken with my wife, is supper or dinner, (depending on where you live and what it is called there). Being sent to bed without a bite to eat hurts. It's not easy being me... James Zyskowski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post VKurtB Posted July 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 1, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Alex in PA. said: Hard Head! Guilty as charged. People who insist on their own personal definitions of terms really [urinate] me off. Edited July 1, 2021 by VKurtB Alex in PA., James Zyskowski and Henri Charriere 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 [The problem as I see it is the original meanings of words and terms are constantly evolving. Are you aware there is a question on Google: "What are the 78 gender-neutral pronouns? And a helpful section on how to use them? As far as I am concerned, this is something future generations will have to sort out. In the meantime, aside from etymological and anatomical references, I shall continue to regard every NGC member my bosom buddy -- and that includes those who dislike me, ignore me, or detest me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKurtB Posted July 1, 2021 Share Posted July 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said: that includes those who dislike me, ignore me, or detest me. And those of us who stand "amused"? James Zyskowski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapmanSRQ Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause a controversy. I am not an expert on grading, and had never seen it before. I purchased a modern Canadian PF70 coin with that label and just wanted to know what it meant. You all answered my question right off, and I am good. I appreciate the comments and perspectives. Thanks! James Zyskowski 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...