An AT or NT thread for fun 0

[Coinbuf]

I have owned this Morgan for many years and have gone back and forth on the reverse colors.  I have also attempted to photograph it myself a few times but as with a few coin I have I just was not very happy with my results.  So I sent this out to Mark Goodman recently and as usual he nailed it perfectly.  So what say you NGC forum members; good or doctored to the moon.

 

[Lem E]

Pics look great, but I say AT.

[Henri Charriere]

I defer to the Honorable VKurtB, as regarding his assessment of the psychedelic reverse as toning, however achieved or inherited, is his exclusive area of expertise.  

[Just Bob]

NT

[VKurtB]

The fact that the color is exclusive to one side, but is NOT of the typical progression of burlap bag toning, tells me this coin sat against high sulfur PAPER for many decades. Maybe in a type set in a picture frame. So while it may be unintentional, to me it is still artificial, certainly “aided”.

Edited June 1, 2021 by VKurtB

[zadok]

all toning is "aided" whether natural or artificial....the question to the collector is..."was the toning intentionally accelerated by human intervention?"...to the coin at hand it is certainly bold and attractive, i personally would not buy this coin at a premium due to the higher chance that it is artificial rather than natural, but 100% determination is an inexact science...

[Just Bob]

 

11 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The fact that the color is exclusive to one side, but is NOT of the typical progression of burlap bag toning, tells me this coin sat against high sulfur PAPER for many decades. Maybe in a type set in a picture frame. So while it may be unintentional, to me it is still artificial, certainly “aided”.

Interesting. Most people seem to lean toward "intent" as their determination of AT/NT. Just so I am clear, do you judge between AT & NT based on whether or not the coin was in mint packaging or not? And, by "mint packaging," I mean burlap bags, paper envelopes, cardboard and paper mint sets, etc. Does this mean that you consider Wayte Raymond album toned coins to be AT? What about coins toned in paper rolls? 

I understand that intent can be difficult, if not impossible, to prove, or even determine - except in the case of certain Ebay doctors - but, most people that I have talked to are forgiving when it comes to what they perceive as "accidental" toning. And, sometimes, TPGs seem to be, as well.

I agree with your assessment of the likely cause of the toning on this coin, but I am more in the "intent" camp. A week of sitting in sulfur is definitely artificial. Decades of resting against a paper or cardboard surface seems more like the natural toning process to me.

[gmarguli]

14 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

 

Interesting. Most people seem to lean toward "intent" as their determination of AT/NT. Just so I am clear, do you judge between AT & NT based on whether or not the coin was in mint packaging or not? And, by "mint packaging," I mean burlap bags, paper envelopes, cardboard and paper mint sets, etc. Does this mean that you consider Wayte Raymond album toned coins to be AT? What about coins toned in paper rolls? 

I understand that intent can be difficult, if not impossible, to prove, or even determine - except in the case of certain Ebay doctors - but, most people that I have talked to are forgiving when it comes to what they perceive as "accidental" toning. And, sometimes, TPGs seem to be, as well.

I agree with your assessment of the likely cause of the toning on this coin, but I am more in the "intent" camp. A week of sitting in sulfur is definitely artificial. Decades of resting against a paper or cardboard surface seems more like the natural toning process to me.

If you can't tell the difference based on the coin, intent is meaningless.

It's either market acceptable or it's not. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

If you can't tell the difference based on the coin, intent is meaningless.

It's either market acceptable or it's not. 

Nothing a spritz from WD-40 can't solve.

[VKurtB]

5 hours ago, Just Bob said:

 

Interesting. Most people seem to lean toward "intent" as their determination of AT/NT. Just so I am clear, do you judge between AT & NT based on whether or not the coin was in mint packaging or not? And, by "mint packaging," I mean burlap bags, paper envelopes, cardboard and paper mint sets, etc. Does this mean that you consider Wayte Raymond album toned coins to be AT? What about coins toned in paper rolls? 

I understand that intent can be difficult, if not impossible, to prove, or even determine - except in the case of certain Ebay doctors - but, most people that I have talked to are forgiving when it comes to what they perceive as "accidental" toning. And, sometimes, TPGs seem to be, as well.

I agree with your assessment of the likely cause of the toning on this coin, but I am more in the "intent" camp. A week of sitting in sulfur is definitely artificial. Decades of resting against a paper or cardboard surface seems more like the natural toning process to me.

I personally subscribe to the “natural means natural” school of thought. Anything accelerated is something I don’t want in my collections, intentional or not.

 

It’s why there are extremely few toned coins in my collection. I simply don’t like them, and would never seek them out. I should add here that I’m talking about silver coins here. All copper will tone rather deeply over time, and gold, while it does tone, it seldom tones radically.

Edited June 1, 2021 by VKurtB

[Coinbuf]

Interesting replies so far, any others?

[Just Bob]

6 hours ago, gmarguli said:

If you can't tell the difference based on the coin, intent is meaningless.

It's either market acceptable or it's not. 

Good point. In your opinion, is the OP's coins market acceptable?

By the way, this coin looks much darker on my phone than on my laptop.

[gmarguli]

14 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Good point. In your opinion, is the OP's coins market acceptable?

No. 

[zadok]

copper coins n silver coins will both "naturally" tone (oxidize) to the same extent over some period of time without any assistance or need of external substances, exposure to our atmosphere is sufficient...proximity to external contaminants paper, wood, chemicals et al just accelerate the process....gold to a much lesser extent, minimally noticeable but still there...platinum coins almost none at all....

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, zadok said:

copper coins n silver coins will both "naturally" tone (oxidize) to the same extent over some period of time without any assistance or need of external substances, exposure to our atmosphere is sufficient...proximity to external contaminants paper, wood, chemicals et al just accelerate the process....gold to a much lesser extent, minimally noticeable but still there...platinum coins almost none at all....

True to an extent. Copper is far more reactive than silver, and tones far more than silver does from oxygen. Both highly respond to sulfur compounds. 

[zadok]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

True to an extent. Copper is far more reactive than silver, and tones far more than silver does from oxygen. Both highly respond to sulfur compounds. 

true...my comment said same extent, didnt try to quantify reactiveness or time lapse just that placing in the atmosphere without outside contaminants they both will eventually oxidize, copper turn fully brown n silver fully black, in getting there both will go thru various toning aspects with colors, obviously they both will accelerate from the sulfur content naturally occurring in our atmosphere, since copper higher on the relative reactive oxidation scale than silver it will oxidize much faster i.e. lose its electrons faster n form the ionic bonding in a more reactive nature...end result for both, full surface oxidation...numismatically, full red better than full brown...blazing white better than full black, its the transitional color phases than precipitate all the discussions...guess we can agree to agree in principal...

[Coinbuf]

Always a good discussion, as usual it is very hard sometimes to arrive at a consensus of opinion when color is involved.   This coin has a great cartwheel under the toning which is much more translucent in hand than the photo suggests which makes the toning look more legit in hand.    However it lacks any of the normal cues that many use to determine NT toning such as the tone pulling away from the letters and a more normal color progression.   I tend to agree and think that Kurt's idea of how this toning evolved is correct but of course we will never know for sure.    This is in a gold PCI holder, as most know the gold label PCI holders are not considered reliable or generally accurate by much of the market.   PCI called this MS64 and considered the tone NT or at least market acceptable to them.   As I said I bought it many years ago for $45 dollars as an interesting conversation piece given the unusual nature and look of the toning.

[VKurtB]

Great piece to inspire discussion, the truest value of all. I can truthfully say I’ve never owned a PCI slabbed coin, nor understood their color band system.

Edited June 2, 2021 by VKurtB