1943 copper penny 2 2

[vnam1971]

I now already that these coins are the most counterfeited coins on the rare coin circuit. I also

know a lot about the 1943 copper and the 1944 steel wheat pennies. I have been into rare coins

only for a short time, and have done my research. With that out of the way, I own now what is

probably a once in a lifetime rarity, and not only one, but two. A 1943 (no mint mark-Philadelphia) bronze(copper) penny,

and a 1943-S Copper penny. They are about to be graded thru NGC OR PCGS, of which I am a member of both. The reason for this

post is to gather information on other counterfeiting means that I may have overlooked. Their Weight is approximately 3.11 grams,

Neither stick to a magnet. The 3 is curved and downward like on the normal steel 1943 pennies. They show some circulation wear

but the 1943 Philadelphia is actually very nice. I have compared them with those shown on PCGS website and graded, and my 1943 I believe

is very close to the quality of those there. I am posting a picture of the 1943, so you can see it and make comments. 

I am very sure of the authenticity, and am so sure, that they are locked in a safe deposit box at a bank.

Please comment on any testing that I might proceed with before sending them in. They are ready to go to PCGS...forms have

been filled in, packaging ready, and double checked everything before I let the mail service get their hands on them. They are being submitted

separately just in case. Appreciate any advise on counterfeiting to look for. I read that China had at one time tried to infiltrate the rare coin market

with very realistic copies of rare coins, but the 1943 was not mentioned in that article.

[Oldhoopster]

There are lots of 1943 copper Chinese counterfeits and they have been around for awhile. Some are die struck on copper planchets, so they weight will be correct and it won't stick to a magnet.    Check out Alibaba.  Sorry, but I believe you have a counterfeit.  The details are soft and mushy.  I think with a little research, you might be able to match the weak reverse die as well as the marks near IGWT

[Sharann]

Hmmm... Suspicious minds.... 

[vnam1971]

It could very well be a counterfeited coin. However, the texture, color, and the wear on details are often very much like

other wheat pennies of various years that I have studied. I realize, and did so, when I started this blog that counterfeiting

these coins was a real issue, but that is what I am trying to find out....other ways of verifying their authenticity (if any) prior

to sending hem in for grading. The obvious ways, have already been done, and passed the test. Looking for additional

ways that someone might suggest. 

[Greenstang]

I'm with Oldhoopster, I believe it is counterfeit also.

This is one of the more counterfeited coins and there are several Chinese websites that have them for sale now.

Edit;

After researching my files,  I'm now sure that it is counterfeit.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Greenstang

[Coinbuf]

I have been collecting Lincoln cents for over thirty years, you have a counterfeit, sorry.

[Just Bob]

I doubt any of us is going to convince you that your coin is not genuine, so I will just advise you to prepare yourself to be disappointed, should you decide to send it in for authentication.

[vnam1971]

Well so far just on visual only, I have been told about four times that this is a fake. What I need to know is why

each of you believe it is. What are your flags (in the picture) that tell you it is a fake? This is important to know,

and this is what I really need for future reference. I have about thirty 1943 steel pennies in various states of wear.

Some quite nice and some showing wear in a very likeness of this copper coin. I have used a very strong magnifier 

to zoom in on detail and compare, and I cant see any discrepancies other than steel and copper, that would bring me to that conclusion.

This is where some of you with expertise could enlighten me. I am by far from being any expert, no matter what research

I have done, but would love to know how your simple visual leads you to that conclusion? 

Learning anything I can now, might save me a lot of headaches down the line. 

And yes, I will send it in for verification regardless of opinions here. I have to....I know you all understand that. If I don't,

I will always wonder...could I have been right? My hopes have never been at a high level, because the odds are in the billions that I have one, much less two.

But how I came to acquire them lingers in my mind somewhat. I constantly get 50 cent rolls of pennies from banks, and go thru each meticulously looking

for error coins or rare dates. I have gone thru thousands, and it is time consuming. Granted, I get Canadian coins now and then, and even a foreign ones (possibly

Russian or otherwise) in these rolls. This is where I found them. In circulation. Still doesn't mean they are real I know, because once I found a token in these searches.

Once I am done with the rolls, I package them up again, and rather than turn them in for paper money, I give them to the homeless on the street. Sometimes ten to twenty

dollars at a time. I can only seem to go thru about $40.00 a month, which is about 4,000 coins. 

If it turns out to be a fake, and even if it doesn't,  I will retain and remember what each of you said early on, concerning why you thought it was.

Oldhoopster stated that "The details are soft and mushy." This is what I am looking for. The reason you believe this. What you may see that I don't.

[vnam1971]

Whatever the outcome here, I will post the results of my coin when the grading is done. I have reviewed now additional articles and pictures of chinese

counterfeiting operations, since I started this Blog, and must say that it does not look good. They are indeed very impressive replicas.

And the operations are massive.

[Greenstang]

Quote

 but would love to know how your simple visual leads you to that conclusion? 

There are several visual markers that lead to the conclusion that it is counterfeit.  We do not normally disclose them on the Forum as counterfeiters also read these posts but  I will tell you one easy one to look for. Check the location of the 3 in the date to a genuine one. You will find that yours is further away from the 4. As I said, there are several markers but it only takes one to make it a counterfeit.

[vnam1971]

Thank you...that's what I am looking for. i will look at that. Sorry i didnt know about disclosing that information, but it makes sense.

[vnam1971]

Thanks for that last comment on the 3. I have looked at my 1943-S and now discovered that the 3 does not angle as it should. It is not a ground down 8, but it does round in and not at all like others that I am looking at. Thanks for the visual tip...this is helping considerably. I am determining that my 1943 is closer to real looking than my 1943-S is....and originally I thought in reverse of that, due to the condition my 1943-S was in.

I will post it so you can see what I am talking about.

[RWB]

Both "coins" are counterfeits. The first made from copy dies, the latter from false dies.

[vnam1971]

I now cant argue that. Beginning to see things I didn't before. 

[VKurtB]

People seeing with their wannahappen. We’ve all been there. 

[vnam1971]

yes...that's for sure. Odds are worse than the lottery, but you know......someone always win the lottery. The search will continue.

Knowledge is everything, and I appreciate all the comments here.

[Hoghead515]

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

People seeing with their wannahappen. We’ve all been there. 

I got a set of the lyingest eyes there ever was. They've tricked me more than once. 

[Sharann]

53 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

I got a set of the lyingest eyes there ever was. They've tricked me more than once. 

You know, HH, you can't hide your lying eyes,

[Conder101]

22 hours ago, vnam1971 said:

The reason for this

post is to gather information on other counterfeiting means that I may have overlooked.

Have you considered the fact that the Chinese are making some pretty fair counterfeits of these coins and you can buy them online for a few dollars in any amount you want?

The Philadelphia is a mid level quality fake, the San Francisco is better but still fake.

[Henri Charriere]

22 hours ago, vnam1971 said:

 

I am saddened to see someone's hopes and dreams dashed or demolished in less than twenty-four hours. Either the OP saved himself a ton of money on grading fees -- anyone care to take a guess as to what the appropriate insurance fee for mailing something like this in for submission would be? -- or shelved a fortune solely on the strength of opinions offered by anonymous viewers using user names.

I take a different tack.  Before condemnation proceedings proceed any further, I have a few questions. Just curious. To the OP:  Can V.D.B. seen under magnification under Lincoln's shoulder on the obverse?  To viewers:  Was anyone else discomfited by that curl of metal arcing upwards toward the left from the bottom reverse side?  And the granddaddy of all questions: why, with millions of common Wheaties readily available to serve as a suitable model for the reverse, would anyone choose one that sports an obliterated S in States and various letters in various states of degradation?

The positioning of the 3 in 1943 does not trouble me.  It has a ready-made alibi: if what I have been reading on the Forum bears any semblance to reality, this is but yet another hitherto unknown die variety.  If these are both counterfeits, they are not bad. I miss the old days when you can walk into any reputable dealer and get a preliminary assessment on the spot.  Would any member suggest the OP unceremoniously dispose of his finds?  In the spirit of fair play, the heavyweights having weighed in,  I believe it only fair we allow our foremost authority and resident expert on all things questionable, Ratzie33, to have the last word on this matter.

[vnam1971]

Appreciate the overview and additional comments Quintus Arrius. Definitely things to consider here. I do not see V.D.B. under magnifying glass and under Lincoln's shoulder. Would that not be on a 1909 or 1909-S only, or were you just joking? Elaborate please if you were serious. Who is Ratzie33, the resident expert?

[vnam1971]

I believe that I know what you are talking about now. I have a 1943 Steel penny and under the magnifying glass I can see the VDB Initials you described. Never knew that. Does this mean that if my coin doesn't have those that it more than likely is fake? I take it that the 1942 copper planchetts left in the bins at the start of 1943 production of steel pennies, and  where the first 1943 copper were produced, would have had those same initials in the mistaken stamping. Am I correct in assuming this?

[Oldhoopster]

55 minutes ago, vnam1971 said:

Appreciate the overview and additional comments Quintus Arrius. Definitely things to consider here. I do not see V.D.B. under magnifying glass and under Lincoln's shoulder. Would that not be on a 1909 or 1909-S only, or were you just joking? Elaborate please if you were serious. Who is Ratzie33, the resident expert?

All Lincoln cents since 1918 have a VDB on the edge of the shoulder near the rim.  If it's missing, that could be another piece of data pointing that your coin is a fake.  

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

56 minutes ago, vnam1971 said:

Appreciate the overview and additional comments Quintus Arrius. Definitely things to consider here. I do not see V.D.B. under magnifying glass and under Lincoln's shoulder. Would that not be on a 1909 or 1909-S only, or were you just joking? Elaborate please if you were serious. Who is Ratzie33, the resident expert?

On the 1909 Lincoln cents, the V.D.B. appeared in raised letters on the reverse side at the bottom.  From 1918 on -- with a few exceptions -- they were incused on the bottom of Lincoln's shoulder.

Ratzie33, a member, purportedly had a 1943 copper cent, lost it, and has been seeking to recover his potential fortune since in all manner of coins adamantly insisting they are unique, claims other more knowledgeable collectors have dismissed as specious.

I think it safe to say your coin is inauthentic -- but I personally like it and if I were you I would hold onto it and when circumstances permit, present it for evaluation at a coin show where second opinions presumably abound. In the meantime, you may wish to consider obtaining a copy of the latest Red Book to familiarize yourself with other aspects of the hobby many generations of collectors have found to be fascinating.

[vnam1971]

Thank you Quintus. The VDB aspect of this I never knew until your first post. Have now looked at all my pennies of past years withing that time frame, and sure enough

they all have the VDB just below the Lincoln shoulder. Before this blog, I thought the VDB Initials were found only on the 1909 and 1909-S penny. I have a 1909 VDB but no "S" yet.

This was something that was very useful, because I would think it would be very hard to counterfeit it, because the initials reside on the vertical side of the raised portion of the strike.

I checked all those on PCGS and they are indeed there for all the 1943 authentic coins which are registered. The  1943-S penny that I showed on here has been confirmed as

inauthentic, due to the "3" being turned in, and composition was almost 100% copper and no zinc. Of course no VDB Initials either. Going to have her look at the 1943 next, because

I believe it is a better done counterfeit than the 1943-S, due to the correct looking "3", and (as you mentioned) the various stages of degradation on letters etc on the wheat side. 

I learned a lot here, and I will hang onto it...get several other opinions, and will take it to a coin show as you suggested. 

Thanks again for enlightening me, and I will get a redbook. You have been extremely helpful. I plan to stay in this. I was not expecting to ever find one of these when I began, so I am no worse off.

[Hoghead515]

Ratzie33 was something else.  He would take an ordinary coin and brag it up like it was some kind of special coin and everyone telling him better. Everyone would try to help him but he would ignore the help and post a hundred pictures and videos of it thinking it would change everyone's minds. Then he got a little bit mean there at last and I think he may have got banned. He got really mad at me over me joking around with him a little. Can't remember exactly what he said but it didn't bother me none. I got very thick skin. One of the most easy going people you will ever meet. Takes a whole lot to get to me.  But he broke the rules of the site and got the boot. 

 

 

[vnam1971]

That's kind of funny, because I thought at first that Ratzie33 was indeed an expert that I needed to hear from on my coins, when Quintus first mentioned him. However, his second post elaborated

more when I asked who he was, and I got the message. 

[Henri Charriere]

Not to rub it in but one of my all-time favorite posts was the one concerning the list of the 100 most influential people in numismatics with members debating the merits of whether this one or that one ought to have been included, a stream  of consciousness broken by  VKurtB's startlingly direct question:  "Is Ratzie33's name on it?"  😂

[vnam1971]

It sounds like he was well known by everyone within this community. Has anyone ever figured out why all the ranting about validity of his coins was

played out on this media? Since nothing is sold here and everything is mainly just discussed, I would think his approach to convincing people of

what he had, would have been better served on selling sites like Ebay, Bonanza, or even Etsy. Etsy site seems to have a lot of people trying to sell coins

for thousands upon thousands of dollars, and most are worthless. Did he just like to argue.....? 

[Hoghead515]

1 hour ago, vnam1971 said:

It sounds like he was well known by everyone within this community. Has anyone ever figured out why all the ranting about validity of his coins was

played out on this media? Since nothing is sold here and everything is mainly just discussed, I would think his approach to convincing people of

what he had, would have been better served on selling sites like Ebay, Bonanza, or even Etsy. Etsy site seems to have a lot of people trying to sell coins

for thousands upon thousands of dollars, and most are worthless. Did he just like to argue.....? 

Esty would be a a wonderful site for him. 

Here is an example of one of his post. This is me talking just to give you an example of what he does. Instead of posting 1 picture he would post several and most would be the same angle. Then he would post little videos of him holding it in the light. Here's the example:

SMS Satin matte special proof. Only 3 known(maybe more just an example)

" Look at the serif turning backward."

Picture

"Look at the satin finish dancing in the light" 

Video and 8 more pictures:

" Look at the die polishing marks around the 7" 

10 more of the same picture and 3 more videos : 

And so on and on. Every coin he posted was some kind of rare SMS coin with only few known examples. In reality they was just ordinary common coins. And he wouldn't listen to the experts on here. I'm no expert myself but I got enough sense to listen to these guys. Most of these guys write books and do this stuff for a living. Been collecting for years. They know what they are talking about. They do get one here and there that won't listen to them. And get mad when they shatter their dream of having a rare valuable coin. And Ratzie33 was one of them. Only every other coin he found was rare. He got to where people started ignoring his post. Poor guy wouldn't let no one help him.