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NGC Green Label
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Started by Fenntucky Mike,

89 posts in this topic

JT2

JT2

Posted
Posted
On 2/11/2021 at 11:01 PM, VKurtB said:

So when does Rick Snow get Snow White labels or Tomaska get high contest black and white ones?

All the more reason to buy the coin and refuse to pay for the jacked up prices of a fancy label.   So is NGC opening up ther own CAC store?

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VKurtB

VKurtB

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, JT2 said:

All the more reason to buy the coin and refuse to pay for the jacked up prices of a fancy label.   So is NGC opening up ther own CAC store?

Kind of, but it’s like CAC in reverse order. First the fourth party passes their judgment and then the third party slabs ‘em up. Expect more gimmicky stuff to proliferate.

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Fenntucky Mike

Fenntucky Mike

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  • Author
Posted (edited)

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/ 

So it seems the green label is like a 'star' designation? RARCOA cheery picks, NGC verifies and RARCOA backs them up in the market. This all sounds familiar but why didn't RARCOA just come up with their own sticker?

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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Crawtomatic

Crawtomatic

Posted
Posted
On 4/1/2021 at 5:45 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8701/ngc-green-label/ 

So it seems the green label is like a 'star' designation? RARCOA cheery picks, NGC verifies and RARCOA backs them up in the market. This all sounds familiar but why didn't RARCOA just come up with their own sticker?

Perhaps to avoid the onslaught of "OMG not another sticker" chatter.  It seems certain folks really dislike the stickers.  To the point that if a new player decided to just create a super-holder and encapsulate an encapsulated coin with their own labeling I wouldn't be so surprised.

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zadok

zadok

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Crawtomatic said:

Perhaps to avoid the onslaught of "OMG not another sticker" chatter.  It seems certain folks really dislike the stickers.  To the point that if a new player decided to just create a super-holder and encapsulate an encapsulated coin with their own labeling I wouldn't be so surprised.

ur probably correct...on the surface the rarcoa green label wrinkle appears to be an attempt to create another echelon or class of desirability to generate a vehicle to make money n that is exactly what it is, it provides little to nothing to enhance the value or desirability of the coin that has been encapsulated ....just a subtle attempt to coattail for more money from the collector...yes every coin consortium could just create their own label or bean to accomplish the same thing but they would need to underwrite or establish a bona fide financial support level for it to gain acceptance, not an easy nor cheap avenue to pursue...as for ur encapsulating the encapsulated, sort of being done as in the grading of gsa coins n redfield hoard coins now...who knows whats next, anything goes, im guessing more new wrinkles to see how many will follow....as for folks really dislike the stickers, im not seeing that....collectors, dealers n investors seem to be eagerly accepting if not promoting this concept....to paraphrase "money is as money does"....

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted (edited)

Since we're on the subject of labels and slabs...I LOVE the NGC modern labels when I buy new stuff.  The Saint-Gaudens commemorative labels are great, and the gold ones for the 2009 UHR are also great.

I also like their new 4-pronged modern vs. the solid white (see pics).

2017 NatPark Indian Head PF70.jpg

2018 NatPark S-G Reverse Proof.jpg

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Fenntucky Mike

Fenntucky Mike

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12 hours ago, Lem E said:

I wonder if CAC would sticker one of these green labels?

I think that there is no doubt they would but if these coins are getting "additional scrutiny" by NGC, none of them should get a gold bean. Slabs are going to start looking like those old steamer trunks. The thing that doesn't compute is that RARCOA is picking these coins based on eye appeal (including a strong strike) and NGC is assigning the green label based on these attributes yet none of the green labels on MCM have a "star" designation. So these are strongly struck coins only and/or weren't good enough for a "star"? Also, the coins received extra scrutiny so there is little to no chance that they would ever receive a higher grade if resubmitted or get a gold bean? I know what I like and who better to pick out a coin for me than me. Seems like a big nothing burger and I don't think it will pull strong premiums. 
 

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

I think that there is no doubt they would but if these coins are getting "additional scrutiny" by NGC, none of them should get a gold bean. Slabs are going to start looking like those old steamer trunks. The thing that doesn't compute is that RARCOA is picking these coins based on eye appeal (including a strong strike) and NGC is assigning the green label based on these attributes yet none of the green labels on MCM have a "star" designation. So these are strongly struck coins only and/or weren't good enough for a "star"? Also, the coins received extra scrutiny so there is little to no chance that they would ever receive a higher grade if resubmitted or get a gold bean? I know what I like and who better to pick out a coin for me than me. Seems like a big nothing burger and I don't think it will pull strong premiums. 

It's confusing....no TPG has ever designed a special label encompassing coin grading attributes that I can remember.....they've come out with special pics and labels for particular coin types, but NOT for the underlying grade or more aesthetic qualities like these Green Labels supposedly have.

Again....and we probably need to hear from an NGC rep (I suspect they might be not too far from these forums xD )..... are these coins being given a green label based on qualities that the official NGC graders normally do not consider in assigning grades?

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted (edited)

"Leading numismatic experts at RARCOA inspect and segregate coins to find superior quality examples, including coins with attributes such as outstanding eye appeal, razor-sharp strike, booming luster, or attractive toning." 

So RARCOA looks for really nice-looking coins that stand out to the retail crowd...probably the masses, NOT regular coin collectors....or maybe Newbies....then they are sent to NGC where they are graded.

On closer inspection, it seems like NGC is just giving a special Green Label to coins pre-selected by RARCOA....grade is not impacted at all, and the qualities listed above that RARCOA seeks may or MAY NOT impact the grade that NGC assigns.

Now....if we find that the coins NGC grades for RARCOA are higher than for non-RARCOA coins, that would be a problem.  But I don't think NGC would sulley their reputation by giving out higher grades for the attributes listed above. 

They are simply incidental to the final grade, as best I can read the press release and key paragraphs.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Alex in PA.

Alex in PA.

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, Crawtomatic said:

It seems certain folks really dislike the stickers.

I wonder who those folks are and why they don't like a sticker on their slab?  More stickers means more value; right?

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I wonder who those folks are and why they don't like a sticker on their slab?  More stickers means more value; right?

These stickers are apparently being created for the retail market with qualities that might appeal to such buyers but NOT necessarily impact the grade given by NGC's/ANAs grading standard.

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Fenntucky Mike

Fenntucky Mike

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The only described quality that would be a factor in grading is strike quality, I don't think there is ANY issue with the grade assigned to these coins. In fact there should be no doubt to their grade since they are receiving "extra scrutiny", nowhere that I read was there a mention of A, B or C type levels within the grade or that coins with this label are towards the high end of the grade. So people who have these coins should be 100% confident of the grade assigned and also should realize that these coins won't grade higher. Not because they are over graded but because they were carefully scrutinized and assigned the appropriate grade. Because most of the qualities described are along the lines of "eye appeal" my question would be, is the green label an implied "star"? Since I don't think this label is an implied star or plus or any other designation, it's significance is diminished.

26 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess the $64,000 Question is:  can outstanding eye appeal, razar-sharp strike, booming luster, and attractive toning impact a grade ?

Strike quality is taken into account for numerical grades. 

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

The only described quality that would be a factor in grading is strike quality, I don't think there is ANY issue with the grade assigned to these coins. In fact there should be no doubt to their grade since they are receiving "extra scrutiny", nowhere that I read was there a mention of A, B or C type levels within the grade or that coins with this label are towards the high end of the grade. So people who have these coins should be 100% confident of the grade assigned and also should realize that these coins won't grade higher. Not because they are over graded but because they were carefully scrutinized and assigned the appropriate grade. Because most of the qualities described are along the lines of "eye appeal" my question would be, is the green label an implied "star"? Since I don't think this label is an implied star or plus or any other designation, it's significance is diminished.

Strike quality is taken into account for numerical grades. 

There should be no more (or less) confidence in the grades of coins with those labels than for any other coins graded by NGC. And such coins should have just as much chance to grade higher (or lower) than other coins graded by NGC. Also, if NGC is of the opinion that they deserve a “star”, I’m confident that one will be awarded. There’s no implied “star”.
 

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RWB

RWB

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I guess the $64,000 Question is:  can outstanding eye appeal, razar-sharp strike, booming luster, and attractive toning impact a grade ?

 

The pragmatic response is Yes. Happens very frequently. However.....

A "grade" is only the state of preservation - an objectively definable and measurable criteria. The others are, except for details, subjective opinions which might be of more of less importance to individual viewers.

There is no pretense of "objective grade" if any subjective factor is included.

Edited by RWB
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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted

Would those gentlemen who espoused "technical" grading as allegedly practiced by one TPGS as opposed to "market" grading as practiced by another, care to run that by us one more time in light of the above.

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Would those gentlemen who espoused "technical" grading as allegedly practiced by one TPGS as opposed to "market" grading as practiced by another, care to run that by us one more time in light of the above.

If my reading of the actual reasons for the Green Label (above) are correct...and what MarkFeld said is also true (and I have no reason to doubt his opinion given his background)....then we have nothing to worry about as far as the grading on any forthcoming Green Labels. 

As for Technical vs. Market Grading....the veterans I hear from say it was industry-wide (TPGs, dealers, collectors) and not particular to any one TPG.  I have no opinion as I only know of this by reading about it -- I wasn't that active at the time those changes (allegedly xD) took place.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If my reading of the actual reasons for the Green Label (above) are correct...and what MarkFeld said is also true (and I have no reason to doubt his opinion given his background)....then we have nothing to worry about as far as the grading on any forthcoming Green Labels. 

As for Technical vs. Market Grading....the veterans I hear from say it was industry-wide (TPGs, dealers, collectors) and not particular to any one TPG.  I have no opinion as I only know of this by reading about it -- I wasn't that active at the time those changes (allegedly xD) took place.

I don’t remember hearing any debates or claims that the major grading services practice technical, as opposed to market grading.

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GoldFinger1969

GoldFinger1969

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I don’t remember hearing any debates or claims that the major grading services practice technical, as opposed to market grading.

I'm not sure there are threads here or ATS on it...but major discussions ALL OVER from time-to-time over at CT on the whole Market vs. Technical Grading, Mark.  

Key points:  2004 as the year of demarcation....reduced emphasis on strict ANA Grading guidelines....and a "liberal" definition of "wear" so that wear from bags could (theoretically) be separated from wear from circulation.

I think those are the key points, if a veteran with more knowledge of the debate in the hobby or the debate on the forums wants to chime in, be my guest. :)

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Henri Charriere

Henri Charriere

Posted
Posted

[I know exactly who said what, when, and where, and I brought it up because it was one of the more interesting claims made since Insider declared no one has a right to free medical care.  But, I digress.  If there are those who are reluctant now to speak up under the glare of the spotlight, so be it. I still think it is one of the more interesting claims made on the Forum since I joined less than a year ago and has even had an out-sized influence in the direction of my collecting. For obvious reasons, I don't anticipate elaboration or extended discussion on this topic.  😉

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