Collectors Universe agrees to be acquired by investor group 1 1

[Coinbuf]

5 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not sure about that, Roger.  I don't think CU has tons of overhead spread all over the world....yeah, it may be possible to do some grading at home (or maybe not)....but if anything, they should want to be in expansion mode.

A large-cap company you can cut the fat.  Doubt it on a small-cap like this whose very public trading existence was questioned over the years (it was probably done for liquidity for key employees).

At this point everything is all speculation, but there have been some comments by the management ats fairly recently about their continued development of AI.  I do not remember exactly what was said or when or where I read that, but one possibility is the new ownership group may wish to ramp up that technology as a cost cutting measure.  I could see AI being used on the huge amount of bulk mint product grading which could lead to faster turnaround times and less overhead of jr graders.  That may not provide a massive cost saving but a little here and some there may be part of the plan.

[MarkFeld]

10 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Stop being a troll Mark, you are not the forum police and I do not answer to you.  As I said if you have a different perception of the post ats you are free to pen your own thoughts there is no need to continue to take cheap shots at me.  There is something called the first amendment, I suggest that you should read that.  Your feeble attempt to get me to react in a way that would get me a time out will not work and it only makes you look more and more foolish.

I responded to your reply to my previous post and I stated my opinion, just as you did.

And your assumption is incorrect. I made no attempt to get you to react in a way that would get you a time out. I don't know if you've been given time outs in the past and I don't read many of your posts, but you don't strike me as the type of poster who could be manipulated in that way. I hadn't given any thought to that possibility, so you gave me far too much "credit".

I'll read the first amendment (even though it doesn't apply to posting on forums such as this), if you'll read "chicken Little". Deal?

[GoldFinger1969]

26 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

At this point everything is all speculation, but there have been some comments by the management ats fairly recently about their continued development of AI.  I do not remember exactly what was said or when or where I read that, but one possibility is the new ownership group may wish to ramp up that technology as a cost cutting measure.  I could see AI being used on the huge amount of bulk mint product grading which could lead to faster turnaround times and less overhead of jr graders.  That may not provide a massive cost saving but a little here and some there may be part of the plan.

Possible, but again, that doesn't move the needle on a purchase like this after the stock is up 3-fold from a year ago and 5-fold from the March lows.

Unless the private equity guys see something to move top-line revenue growth substantially, not sure where they see the opportunity to earn a decent ROIC.

[Coinbuf]

9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Possible, but again, that doesn't move the needle on a purchase like this after the stock is up 3-fold from a year ago and 5-fold from the March lows.

Unless the private equity guys see something to move top-line revenue growth substantially, not sure where they see the opportunity to earn a decent ROIC.

I agree that it seems a curious purchase looking at it from the outside as I am not in the business side of this hobby.  Time will tell the true motive and we will see how things move forward, I do tend to agree with Roger that the new owner group must have a plan given the price they ae willing to pay.

[Coinbuf]

38 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I responded to your reply to my previous post and I stated my opinion, just as you did.

And your assumption is incorrect. I made no attempt to get you to react in a way that would get you a time out. I don't know if you've been given time outs in the past and I don't read many of your posts, but you don't strike me as the type of poster who could be manipulated in that way. I hadn't given any thought to that possibility, so you gave me far too much "credit".

I'll read the first amendment (even though it doesn't apply to posting on forums such as this), if you'll read "chicken Little". Deal?

I have read the story as a child, its about Henny Penny who convinces her friends that the world is ending while proclaiming the sky is falling after she is struck by a falling acorn.  The story is an animated storybook/movie for children but the moral is directed to adults who often act like Henny when confronted by news that is perceived as bad without any facts or investigating.  In this case some of the posters immediately expressed concern and jumped the gun on the precious forum being dissolved (ie the sky is falling) even though the buyout was just announced, the deal has not been inked yet, and no announcement has been made about any changes that might be made.  There are indeed several Henny Penny's on that thread, perhaps your just to self absorbed with being the forum cop to notice it.

 

And no you did not post your own opinion in your first post you attempted to jump all over my opinion and tell me that I'm wrong and you are right, get over yourself Mark you do not control what I get to say or write.

[GoldFinger1969]

Let's stick to the CU deal and implications for the hobby, guys..........

[Bignubnumismatics]

If a private group is wanting to make money, maybe we will have a change for the better. I don't see how they can grow the profits of grading unless Europe catches the slab bug. Most collectors have taken a step back from slabs and gone back to raw coins. Maybe stricter standards will be put in place, who knows.

[gmarguli]

34 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

At this point everything is all speculation, but there have been some comments by the management ats fairly recently about their continued development of AI.  I do not remember exactly what was said or when or where I read that, but one possibility is the new ownership group may wish to ramp up that technology as a cost cutting measure.  I could see AI being used on the huge amount of bulk mint product grading which could lead to faster turnaround times and less overhead of jr graders.  That may not provide a massive cost saving but a little here and some there may be part of the plan.

The cost of creating the AI technology would be massive. The cost of the bulk/modern graders is small. No bulk grader is going to be buying a penthouse and driving a Ferrari. They just don't make a lot of money. How much can they pay these graders when they're charging $5-$7 a coin for grading? 

What the (potential) new owners will do with the company remains to be seen. I doubt massive changes at PCGS. CU had very solid profit margins. Their profit growth outpaced their revenue growth over the past couple years. This was probably helped by their cutting a few high salary people including one giant dead weight and one clueless fool. PCGS has been very good at nickel & diming its customers. I'm sure the new owners will find a few more ways. It wouldn't surprise me if they sold off some things like the Long Beach Show and CoinFacts. 

[MarkFeld]

14 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

I have read the story as a child, its about Henny Penny who convinces her friends that the world is ending while proclaiming the sky is falling after she is struck by a falling acorn.  The story is an animated storybook/movie for children but the moral is directed to adults who often act like Henny when confronted by news that is perceived as bad without any facts or investigating.  In this case some of the posters immediately expressed concern and jumped the gun on the precious forum being dissolved (ie the sky is falling) even though the buyout was just announced, the deal has not been inked yet, and no announcement has been made about any changes that might be made.  There are indeed several Henny Penny's on that thread, perhaps your just to self absorbed with being the forum cop to notice it.

 

And no you did not post your own opinion in your first post you attempted to jump all over my opinion and tell me that I'm wrong and you are right, get over yourself Mark you do not control what I get to say or write.

I did post my opinion (regarding your post and the large majority of posts on the subject): "That was an exaggerated cheap shot. There are plenty of posters there (and here,) who aren’t part of kool aid crowds. And the large majority of posts on the subject were nothing like your characterization."

You're correct, in that I don't control what you say or write. But that works both ways.

By the way, you did a nice job with "Chicken Little". That is, until the part starting with "In this case....". 

Have a nice day.

 

[MarkFeld]

3 minutes ago, Bignubnumismatics said:

If a private group is wanting to make money, maybe we will have a change for the better. I don't see how they can grow the profits of grading unless Europe catches the slab bug. Most collectors have taken a step back from slabs and gone back to raw coins. Maybe stricter standards will be put in place, who knows.

Were you speaking of most U.S. collectors going back to raw coins? If so, I haven't seen or heard that.

[Coinbuf]

1 minute ago, MarkFeld said:

I did post my opinion (regarding your post and the large majority of posts on the subject): "That was an exaggerated cheap shot. There are plenty of posters there (and here,) who aren’t part of kool aid crowds. And the large majority of posts on the subject were nothing like your characterization."

You're correct, in that I don't control what you say or write. But that works both ways.

By the way, you did a nice job with "Chicken Little". That is, until the part starting with "In this case....". 

Have a nice day.

 

Just like you Mark pick a fight and run away.  We had a deal where is the review of the 1th amendment?  Showing your true character by making a deal and not keeping it.

[RWB]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

At this point everything is all speculation, but there have been some comments by the management ats fairly recently about their continued development of AI.  I do not remember exactly what was said or when or where I read that, but one possibility is the new ownership group may wish to ramp up that technology as a cost cutting measure.  I could see AI being used on the huge amount of bulk mint product grading which could lead to faster turnaround times and less overhead of jr graders.  That may not provide a massive cost saving but a little here and some there may be part of the plan.

Artificial Intelligence is not necessary for bulk grading of new issues. The examination parameters are so limited that SW could be put together in a weekend using common commercial toolkits. Even for routine grading of Morgans and similar coins one does not need an expert system -- IF -- distinction is made between what such systems do well and what humans do well. I.e., apply the best solution to each part of the problem.

[GoldFinger1969]

30 minutes ago, Bignubnumismatics said:

If a private group is wanting to make money, maybe we will have a change for the better. I don't see how they can grow the profits of grading unless Europe catches the slab bug. Most collectors have taken a step back from slabs and gone back to raw coins. Maybe stricter standards will be put in place, who knows.

I don't understand how anybody can want unslabbed coins or unprotected currency.  Not only do you know have a professional estimate for the underlying grade, the coin or bill is not in a position to be properly handled and stored.

Do overseas people -- and some Americans -- really want to finger-up their coins...have friends touching them....risk damage to their coins/bills ?

Even if there weren't grades attached, I value the slabs and currency plastic holders.

 

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

31 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

I'm sure the new owners will find a few more ways. It wouldn't surprise me if they sold off some things like the Long Beach Show and CoinFacts. 

The LB Show is put on/sponsored by PCGS/CU ?  Didn't know that.

[MarkFeld]

23 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Just like you Mark pick a fight and run away.  We had a deal where is the review of the 1th amendment?  Showing your true character by making a deal and not keeping it.

This will be my last reply to you in this thread. I reread the first amendment a short while ago, even though you didn't state that you'd reread your part of the bargain. I said nothing about reviewing it.

If I made a habit of running away from arguments, I would have been done with you a number of posts ago. I am now.

[Coinbuf]

1 minute ago, MarkFeld said:

This will be my last reply to you in this thread. I reread the first amendment a short while ago, even though you didn't state that you'd reread your part of the bargain. I said nothing about reviewing it.

If I made a habit of running away from arguments, I would have been done with you a number of posts ago. I am now.

Lame

[Alex in PA.]

4 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Here's a thread on that subject, that's still alive: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1047697/collectors-universe-has-been-sold#latest

I must have missed that; thanks for the heads up.  Too early, 1st cup of coffee, excuses, excuses.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[Coinbuf]

35 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

The cost of creating the AI technology would be massive. The cost of the bulk/modern graders is small. No bulk grader is going to be buying a penthouse and driving a Ferrari. They just don't make a lot of money. How much can they pay these graders when they're charging $5-$7 a coin for grading? 

What the (potential) new owners will do with the company remains to be seen. I doubt massive changes at PCGS. CU had very solid profit margins. Their profit growth outpaced their revenue growth over the past couple years. This was probably helped by their cutting a few high salary people including one giant dead weight and one clueless fool. PCGS has been very good at nickel & diming its customers. I'm sure the new owners will find a few more ways. It wouldn't surprise me if they sold off some things like the Long Beach Show and CoinFacts. 

I found what I had read on PCGS and AI in this thread ats. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12689021#Comment_12689021  It sounds like PCGS already has a significant investment in the tech.

[Cat Bath]

27 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Just like you Mark pick a fight and run away.  We had a deal where is the review of the 1th amendment?  Showing your true character by making a deal and not keeping it.

We are so lucky to have Mark post here among us little people.

Unfortunately, his expertise is needed ATS were every inane observation is rewarded with praise. 

[gmarguli]

17 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

I found what I had read on PCGS and AI in this thread ats. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12689021#Comment_12689021  It sounds like PCGS already has a significant investment in the tech.

2+ years and don't recall hearing anything since. Quite possibly a sunk cost.

[MarkFeld]

46 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I don't understand how anybody can want unslabbed coins or unprotected currency.  Not only do you know have a professional estimate for the underlying grade, the coin or bill is not in a position to be properly handled and stored.

Do overseas people -- and some Americans -- really want to finger-up their coins...have friends touching them....risk damage to their coins/bills ?

Even if there weren't grades attached, I value the slabs and currency plastic holders.

 

 

 

What about (non-slabbed) low value coins? And for those who want to protect such coins, there are far more economical options than the cost of grading and postage.

[MAULEMALL]

32 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

2+ years and don't recall hearing anything since. Quite possibly a sunk cost.

They went for the dart board option..

[jtryka]

Why would they need AI for bulk modern grading?  My understanding was they just take the number submitted, assign X% as MS-70 and the rest get MS-69.  That doesn't seem like rocket science...

[gmarguli]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Do overseas people -- and some Americans -- really want to finger-up their coins...have friends touching them....risk damage to their coins/bills ?

Yes. In fact, I have been told several times by Europeans that the reason they don't like slabs is that they like to touch the coins.

Of course, these same people slab their coins when going to sell them. 

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

Stop being a troll Mark, you are not the forum police and I do not answer to you.

I have not the slightest idea what any of you are talking about (though it's not hard to admire brg5958's mastery of history) but to quote Jimmy in Goodfellas (1990) addressing Billy Batts, You [Coinbuff] are a little out of order yourself."  Accordingly, paraphrasing Eddie Murphy in "Coming to America," I have little choice but to get up in a crowded NYC subway car, and proclaim:  "From this moment on, I renounce my throne! I am no longer the principal troll on this Forum. I renounce my throne!"  I collect coins (earning a star on my # 1 set, Rooster Roster PCGS) you have a magnificent collection of Lincoln cents, but Mark Feld is in a class by himself and whether he continues to choose to ignore me or not, entirely his prerogative, I retract my previously unwarranted and wholly undeserving, intemperate remarks and will henceforth address him with the respect and deference he deserves. 

[MAULEMALL]

14 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Yes. In fact, I have been told several times by Europeans that the reason they don't like slabs is that they like to touch the coins.

Of course, these same people slab their coins when going to sell them. 

Coins are tactile ..They're whole existence is to be touched..

[Alex in PA.]

4 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Why was it gone?  Poofed?  Could there have been other threads that were Poofed already that you didn't see?  Disclaimer, I have no idea, I don't frequent that forum.

No Conder, my mistake.  Read the board like I usually do in the morning but must have just missed it.  Mark Feld pointed it out and when I went back it was there.  Apologies, my dumbness acting out again.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, RWB said:

Artificial Intelligence is not necessary for bulk grading of new issues. The examination parameters are so limited that SW could be put together in a weekend using common commercial toolkits. Even for routine grading of Morgans and similar coins one does not need an expert system -- IF -- distinction is made between what such systems do well and what humans do well. I.e., apply the best solution to each part of the problem.

Yeah, I don't think you need AI for modern grading....maybe for more complex, die and other varieties on older classics....all you need is a 4K or HD-quality scanner/camera, lasers, and software.

They've been using this stuff to look for tumours in healthcare or even to look for asteroids/planets in astrophotography CCDs for years.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

What about (non-slabbed) low value coins? And for those who want to protect such coins, there are far more economical options than the cost of grading and postage.

Fair point.....I'm a quality over quantity guy so for me having the protection is important.

I guess if I had thousands of coins and many were low-value I might not need them on a few dozen or few hundred or maybe even few thousand coins if I didn't care about condition, preservation, etc.

[jtryka]

By the way, I thought Steve Cohen was permanently banned from the securities industry following the shenanigans at SAC Capital.  I had dealings with the former firm and saw all the interesting measures at Point 72 and the other successor firms following the enforcement actions.  Apparently he's doing this with his personal money so it likely doesn't break any "rules"...interesting nonetheless...