Jon Wood Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 Modern technology is leading the science of coin manufacturing. Today we see coins that are beyond beautiful. They are remarkable pieces of art requiring extraordinary techniques to produce.These coins include monetary valued coins, commemoratives and medals from National, International and Private Mints. Given these achievements, should these coins appear in the major grading and pricing guides? Maybe we'll see more of these coins in the future. GoldFinger1969 and FairTradeAct_1935 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsshog40 Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 NGC has a section in it's price guide that is for Modern Commemoratives. I think the problem with authenticating private mints is that there is soo much misc bullion and such that it wouldn't be worthwhile to keep up with it let alone try to follow the market on them for values. NGC Price Guide GoldFinger1969 and FairTradeAct_1935 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 Obviously there are a lot of bullion to sort through but on the other hand we see unique coins being issued by International and Private mints. They include perfect grades, signatures by world renowned engravers, Ultra High Relief and Ultra Cameo distinctions and First Day of Production status. Should these attributes be identified and published in our major grading and pricing guides? Modern technology is making what we never thought possible, possible. FairTradeAct_1935 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RWB Posted November 26, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 26, 2020 What purpose is there to "grading" a modern NCLT? They do not circulate as money, so they have no wear. They live entirely in plastic containers. I doubt if one in 1,000 owners can separate "MS-69" from "MS-70" without the label. All the remaining stuff - labels, designations, contorted marketing blather - are ephemeral trash. Hoghead515, RonnieR131 and Michael_C 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 26, 2020 Author Share Posted November 26, 2020 One man's trash is another man's treasure. Attributes like signature, UHR, U/C, rarity, or perfection may not mean much by themselves but collectively they have public appeal. The fate of coin collecting rests with our youth. Our industry needs more young folks to guarantee future growth and sustainability. The guide industry could expand its base by being more inclusive. Is there room at the table for Millennials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWB Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 How do you make a "grading guide" for something that never abrades and does not change? Maybe what you want is a reference to the universe of labels, claims, exaggerations and ephemera, with some production/sales data and sort of pricing assumptions. That would be fine for those who want such things. Just understand that it is a temporary approach and not likely to lead aficionados to anything more than shiny superficial metal bits. Similar to "collector plates" and other items. Maybe the real value is in finding a way to integrate numismatic collecting (historical) with NCLT or whatever it is that "millennials" prefer today. Michael_C and Hoghead515 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 ...jon, ur initial question is a fair one...I would think most coin collectors would agree that the future of the hobby rests with a continuing influx of new collectors, either young or old, young being preferential...ur assessment of how to entice millennials into the hobby may prove more difficult than just getting their attention to metallic discs of art...to date that generation has exhibited little desire to collect anything, they simply prefer to obtain one of something they like n not collect multiples of anything...that's not to say exploring the possibilities r without merit, chances of getting them to collect a set of morgans or lincolns, zero...chances of getting them to obtain more than one specimen of a medallic work of art, possible....but that wont necessarily translate into them becoming coin collectors...as to their being a reference or price guide for these modern issues, im guessing minimal value as most new buyers be buying for the art n not resale value...as for the responses u mite receive on this forum, prob not constructive...certain members will go on n on n on ad nauseam bout anything they don't like or agree with, totally closed to anything new, n don't collect anything numismatic themselves...as mentioned, ur question a fair one, just not sure if the modern commens will ever gravitate into the historical numismatic community or the persons who mite collect them...maybe some more insightful members can assist u more in exploring this approach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxie15 Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 I have several things I want to say but I think one or more of them would be considered inappropriate or otherwise unacceptable by some viewers RonnieR131 and kenlee47 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 ...go for it...im not aware that the subject matter is controversial in any way...its simply a discussion whether modern mint issues of nclt, medals, works of art etc will be accepted in mainstream numismatics or not n if the younger generations will ever be coin collectors n is there a way to facilitate either or both of those issues...I don't see anything objectionable about either subject, regardless of my personal views on the matter...the OP had a legitimate question n was asking for comments.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 27, 2020 Author Share Posted November 27, 2020 Thank you member zadok for comments and open discussion. Medals are rewards for merit while commemoratives show respect and commemorate events. Those coins produced as medals or commemoratives show value. Some are more valuable than others but all coins are collectable. The acronym NCLT was new to me. Regardless, these nclt's are being minted, encapsulated, graded and sold worldwide. Maybe it's time for the "Numismatic Mainstream" to open up and do more to integrate some of these coins into their pricing and grading guides? Where would the industry be without collector's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 On 11/26/2020 at 11:42 AM, Jon Wood said: One man's trash is another man's treasure. Attributes like signature, UHR, U/C, rarity, or perfection may not mean much by themselves but collectively they have public appeal. The fate of coin collecting rests with our youth. Our industry needs more young folks to guarantee future growth and sustainability. The guide industry could expand its base by being more inclusive. Is there room at the table for Millennials? Why do I think I'm responding to an AI bot? What guide industry? Modern NCLT is listed in the coin guides, talked about in the coin publications, and wildly available on the internet. And why do you think that NCLT is appealing to millennials moreso than other people or other types of coins? RonnieR131 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zadok Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 ...evolved from a question to a lecture, sort of self defeating as far as having an open discussion...if these modern commens r being minted, encapsulated, graded n sold worldwide it seems like the market u envision is already established, most items being graded already have a pricing guide established, would seem the market itself will determine whether there is a viable market for such items for any generation...its very doubtful that most of the modern production of medals, commens, medalettes, tokens or rounds will find their way into the numismatic mainstream since they r simply not coins nor legal circulating tender...there r already established forums, fraternities n auctions for these nclt items, usually referred to as exonumia with accompanying prices realized available...as a side note, medals encompass more than just rewards for merit, as evidenced by the well established token and medal society n their publications...this thread for whatever reasons it was started, seems akin to pushing a very large rock up a very steep hill in very bad weather... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 27, 2020 Author Share Posted November 27, 2020 I'm not saying NCLT is more appealing to millennials. I'm simply seeing lots of modern styled coins produced. And when I see them on the secondary market I know someone is buying them. I have tried referencing NGC sources, the Official Red Book and the Modern World Coins, looking for specific NCLT but failed to find them. They do appear in magazines promoting NCLT but for peace of mind I would like to see them listed in official price and grading guides. I look to NGC because they facilitated the initial grading and encapsulation. No controversy here, just looking for some friendly guidance. I have submitted coins to NGC to have them returned and marked ineligible with no explanation. My objective was to have them encapsulated so they could be displayed in the same holder next to say a "2009 Saint Gaudens UHR Gold". I was trying to capture the greatest appeal by showing a similar silver coin next to the best coin gold has to offer. Sorry, I had to say it. I love Augustus Saint-Gaudens designs. He was greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 Response: Someone should tell the National Park Foundation and the Smithsonian Institute that the modern proofs that they are authorizing are not coins. These coins may not be circulated or be legal tender but if they're not coins what are they? Sure they're coins, collectable coins. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it probably is a duck. I do appreciate the comments about other established forums. I will continue my search. By the way, I started this tread in good faith, looking for some friendly guidance. I did find some. Thank you very much, Jon Michael_C and GoldFinger1969 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 (edited) It would be helpful to me if you would cite specific examples. What coins did you submit to NGC, only to have them returned as ineligible? What National Park and Smithsonian coins are you talking about? Which pieces from National, International, and Private mints? What "major grading and pricing guides" are you referring to? Edited November 28, 2020 by Just Bob GoldFinger1969 and RonnieR131 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 Just Bob, Jon here. I finally found what I was looking for on the internet. The link transferred me to the NGC Census/US Tokens & Medals/Modern Private Issue. When I look at US Tokens & Medals, I see no way to branch to Modern Private Issue. I got there but unless you know the format in advance it's not too obvious what steps a person needs to take to get there to find it. The coins I'm searching for were sold as commemorate medals. They're both gold UHR PF70 and beautiful but are not legal tender. They have for a monetary value "Eagle" and "Double Eagle". I really appreciate you taking time to ask a few questions. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Jon Wood said: Response: Someone should tell the National Park Foundation and the Smithsonian Institute that the modern proofs that they are authorizing are not coins. These coins may not be circulated or be legal tender but if they're not coins what are they? Sure they're coins, collectable coins. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it probably is a duck. Are you looking at the garbage GovMint sells? Those aren't coins. Those are fantasy pieces. Call them tokens or medals or c**p. The fact that NGC degraded itself to put this stuff in their slabs is extremely sad, but it doesn't make them coins. Edited November 28, 2020 by gmarguli Michael_C and MAULEMALL 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, gmarguli said: Are you looking at the garbage GovMint sells? Those aren't coins. Those are fantasy pieces. Call them tokens or medals or c**p. The fact that NGC degraded itself to put this stuff in their slabs is extremely sad, but it doesn't make them coins. Valid observation. Each of their ads is accompanied by comparatively microscopic printing at the bottom of the page disclaiming association with any governmental agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 So they're not coins. They still have their gold and silver value. I think engravers such as Augustus Saint-Gaudens and John Mercanti deserve our recognition. Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted November 29, 2020 Author Share Posted November 29, 2020 The group of modern Chinese rarities contains over $1.5 million USD in gold alone and a numismatic value far higher. Numismatic Guaranty Corporation® (NGC®) has certified the entire mintage of the largest Chinese Panda commemoratives ever produced. Struck for the 2019 Long Beach Expo in California to celebrate the 35th anniversary of Chinese Panda commemoratives (sometimes called “Show Pandas” or “Panda medals”), the five Pandas are five kilograms each in weight. Anybody want one? Maybe I could buy one. Just kidding. I notice these commemoratives are called medals and rarities, not coins. Regardless, they will have great numismatic value. We can't ignore this 35th Anniversary. In 2020 George T Morgan was recognized for his gold pattern proof, minted to explore a version of Morgan's famous design as a $10 Gold Eagle. The gold proof is truly beautiful. This commemorative was approved by the Smithsonian. This too can not be ignored. I love coins but the numismatic mainstream doesn't belong in a box. We can agree to disagree but together we are the numismatic mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 39 minutes ago, Jon Wood said: In 2020 George T Morgan was recognized for his gold pattern proof, minted to explore a version of Morgan's famous design as a $10 Gold Eagle. The gold proof is truly beautiful. This commemorative was approved by the Smithsonian. This too can not be ignored. I love coins but the numismatic mainstream doesn't belong in a box. We can agree to disagree but together we are the numismatic mainstream. I guess I am just dense, but I don't understand the point of this paragraph at all. In fact, this whole thread has me confused. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Hoghead515 and gmarguli 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 I think he may be talking about the fantasy piece they made of George Morgans sketch for a $100 gold Union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 14 hours ago, Just Bob said: I guess I am just dense, but I don't understand the point of this paragraph at all. In fact, this whole thread has me confused. I have no idea what you are trying to say. He's trying to say that because some organization approved of some tokens, they are now magically coins. General Winfield Scott led his forces from Vera Cruz to Mexico City at the Battle of Chapultepec. This battle is often called "the Halls of Montezuma" which is part of the first line of the US Marines official "Marine's Hymn." This cannot be ignored. Alex in PA. and MAULEMALL 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 On 11/29/2020 at 1:03 AM, Just Bob said: I guess I am just dense, but I don't understand the point of this paragraph at all. In fact, this whole thread has me confused. I have no idea what you are trying to say. I, too, was flummoxed by what the original poster (OP) had written, but soon realized as a relatively new member with a presumed unfamiliarity with the volatile personalities who frequent this site, the only responsible thing to do is laud him for his passion, encourage him to listen and learn from the more amiable types and gently suggest he may or may not be onto something. I wonder what our esteemed globe-trotting colleague, VKurtB, would say. I suspect he might allow that with all things being equal, necessity is the mother of invention. If there is a void to be filled, market demand will address it. As I am fond of saying, water seeks its own level. Who'd've thought a "Pet Rock" or "Rubic's Cube" would be all the rage? I would be very pleased to see something extraordinarily beautiful and desirable produced to honor the country's sestercentennial, or 250th Anniversary in 2026, but no one has expressed any interest in it so it remains a pipe dream. Jon Wood 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modwriter Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I'm not volatile am I Quintus? I'm drooling over the Littleton holiday catalog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Charriere Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Modwriter said: I'm not volatile am I Quintus? I'm drooling over the Littleton holiday catalog. No sir. I rather enjoy your friendly banter. Modwriter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted December 1, 2020 Author Share Posted December 1, 2020 (edited) I appreciate Quintus Arrius post. Regarding coinage, I see great potential ahead for creativity, design and unity. For example in 2019-2020, the RCM produced a multifaceted coin with hundreds of polygons. Cut like a diamond, these coins are spectacular in the way they reflect light. Some news is worth repeating. This NCLT was a sell out at the RCM. When creative design couples with technology, it's a win win situation. I didn't know about the Sestercentennial. Thanks for telling us. Edited December 1, 2020 by Jon Wood compression Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Wood Posted December 1, 2020 Author Share Posted December 1, 2020 Any interest in Extraordinary High Relief (EHR) NCLT? Will we see more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modwriter Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Sestercenntennial? You have got to be kidding me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearlyHereBear Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 why grade commemoratives? because she is worth a nice chunk of change. Hoghead515 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
