Dueling TPG Experts - What Would You Do? 1 1

[gmarguli]

For now, let's just say this is a hypothetical... 

A regular consignor sends me coins to slab and sell. Occasionally some PCGS/NGC slabs are included that he submitted on his own. Included in one batch were several coins in flips from one of the TPG with inserts saying the coins are counterfeit. While not my area of expertise, one I leaned toward genuine and all the others I felt were likely counterfeit. 

These coins are heavily counterfeited and this is common knowledge throughout the industry and would be of zero surprise to the TPG graders. They've graded a few hundred to several thousands of each type. They would likely closely examine these. 

The consignor asked me to submit them to the other TPG. I said waste of money as they appear counterfeit, but he said if the original TPG made a mistake on even one of them, it was worth it. I submitted them as he wished.

I was expecting a bunch of bodybags. I was even mentally prepared for the one I thought was genuine to come back counterfeit. After all, not my area and one TPG already said counterfeit. The results recently came in and the other TPG called every single one of them genuine. 

What would you do in this situation? One set of experts said counterfeit. Another set of experts said genuine (and now backs it with a money back guarantee). FYI, the total value of the coins is probably around $10,000. 

[Big Nub numismatics]

"hypothetical" you say. They are just humans after all. I would take it to get a few more looks, and see what other dealers/collectors say. I wouldn't let this person sell these coins without another opinion. 

Perhaps you could bust them out and send them to the other TPG again.

[Iceman]

I

22 minutes ago, Big Nub numismatics said:

 

Perhaps you could bust them out and send them to the other TPG again.

I think I would send them to another TPG service still in the slabs and see what happens then. It would make for a very interesting submission....

[Coinbuf]

It would be very interesting to send them back the TPG that called them fakes as a crossover submission (assuming that the og TPG will accept the new TPG slabs for crossover) and see if they still feel the coins are counterfeits.  Really you are not obligated to do anything, the TPG that certified the coins has a guarantee so they are comfortable with the risk and legally you and your customer are relying on the TPG's expertise.  But there is the moral issue since you know that one TPG took issue with the coins, which TPG do you have more confidence in?

[physics-fan3.14]

Well, clearly one of the TPGs made a mistake. 

The one that slabbed them has a guarantee, and certifies them as genuine. If you really feel that they are counterfeit, perhaps show them to an expert in the field and get a fifth opinion? 

[RonnieR131]

I wouldn't know how I would feel about sending a slabbed counterfeit in and it was returned genuine. Now what to do? They had to have a good reason to call it counterfeit in the first place. I would feel uneasy, always. That said, I had a $3 gold returned genuine cleaned, took a chance, cracked it, submitted to the other TPG, and it was returned AU55. I can live with that, even though there had to be a reason for them to say it was cleaned originally. I guess I'm biased because it was MINE and not some other persons'. I have to check my morality every now and then, usually thinking what I would tell one of my 6 children if one asked me what they should do in that case, trusting me implicitly, and then I 'come clean' with myself, no more blurry vision. My vote would be to send them to the other TPG in the slabs, explaining under 'comments', so they would take a real good look. Of course tomorrow, when my checking account is a little short to pay all of the bills, I might think differently, expertly certified as genuine, I believe I'll just go with that.    

[kbbpll]

14 hours ago, gmarguli said:

They would likely closely examine these.

I'm not sure if I would bet on that. I suppose the ethical dilemma is whether you just sell them as genuine and let the buyer deal with the guarantee. The problem I guess is that they could sit in someone's collection for decades after that and they would never know. Care to give any details about what type these coins are and how many "several" means? If they've graded thousands of them, could be something they put the newbie on.

36 minutes ago, ronnie stein said:

I had a $3 gold returned genuine cleaned, took a chance, cracked it, submitted to the other TPG, and it was returned AU55.

My first ever submission will probably be similar. After looking at images of every example I can find, I've convinced myself that they mistook die polish for hairlines (my profile pic is the coin). If it still came back cleaned, I'd be fine with it. They do make mistakes, particularly (in my view) around "cleaning".

There's a story on CCF about a Canadian cent graded by a Canadian TPG (1881 maybe?), with the wrong date on the holder, unknown obverse type for the real year, XRF gave the correct composition, sent to US TPG, came back counterfeit, resubmitted to Canadian TPG, came back holdered as genuine again. This stuff happens. The fake was incredibly good. What gave it away to people on that forum was microscopic lines from laser etching of the dies. Aside from the unknown die pair, of course.

[Just Bob]

16 hours ago, gmarguli said:

 

What would you do in this situation? One set of experts said counterfeit. Another set of experts said genuine

 

Someone else said counterfeit, also. You did. I know you said that this was not your area of expertise, but you are no numismatic novice, either. You felt they were fake, and a recognized authentication service said they were fake. That is two votes for fake, and one for genuine. Another opinion couldn't hurt, but, right now, I would be leaning toward them being fake.

 When it comes to this particular series, do you feel more confident in the expertise of  one TPG over another? 

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Just Bob

[VKurtB]

If both TPG's involved are among "the big two", our hosts and the four-letter "word" starting with "P", you have a real conundrum. If either is ANACS or ICG, trust me, they're wrong and the one from the "big two" is right. If neither is among the "big two", your story has wasted my time.

[Greenstang]

Why not post a photo of both sides of one or two of the coins you thought were counterfeit and graded genuine and see what some of our members think. I know that I would certainly like to see them as I have an interest in counterfeits.

[gmarguli]

 

2 hours ago, Just Bob said:

 When it comes to this particular series, do you feel more confident in the expertise of  one TPG over another? 

I think that both TPG are highly knowledgeable with regard to these coins. 

 

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

If both TPG's involved are among "the big two", our hosts and the four-letter "word" starting with "P", you have a real conundrum. If either is ANACS or ICG, trust me, they're wrong and the one from the "big two" is right. If neither is among the "big two", your story has wasted my time.

The TPG involved are Accugrade & NNC.  

Actually, the two involved are NGC & PCGS, but I won't say which one said counterfeit or genuine. I also think that you underestimate the knowledge at ANACS and the network of outside experts they use. 

 

1 hour ago, Greenstang said:

Why not post a photo of both sides of one or two of the coins you thought were counterfeit and graded genuine and see what some of our members think. I know that I would certainly like to see them as I have an interest in counterfeits.

They aren't my coins. 

[VKurtB]

18 hours ago, gmarguli said:

 

Actually, the two involved are NGC & PCGS, but I won't say which one said counterfeit or genuine. I also think that you underestimate the knowledge at ANACS and the network of outside experts they use. 

I underestimate nothing. I have an ANACS account which I refuse to use anymore.

[MAULEMALL]

You paid for opinions and God Bless America, You got opinions...

[Moxie15]

Opinions, opinions, we rely on others opinions so much. Grading is an opinion we all know that. So whose opinion do you trust? 

Everyone here has seen coins in both company's holders that we disagreed with the grade. Both companies have graded counterfeits as genuine, both companies have graded genuine coins as counterfeits, so what to do?

I would start with a phone call to the first company to see if they would agree to a no cost second look. If they do not I would call the other to see if they would do the same. If not I would look to a third company or an industry accepted expert in the series. Is it moral to do nothing or sell them as is? I would say yes. The holder is the guaranty from the company, Is it immoral to sell a coin that NGC or PCGS graded MS 67  that you think is no more than MS65? 

Grades are opinions of a certain grader or graders of a certain company at a certain time, so is the authenticity, nothing more. 

[VKurtB]

What I hope is that the correct party is our hosts, whose personnel I like very much and enjoy doing business with immensely. I can’t say the same of the “P people”, whom I have found aggressive and grouchy, frankly

[kbbpll]

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

What I hope is that the correct party is our hosts, whose personnel I like very much and enjoy doing business with immensely. I can’t say the same of the “P people”, whom I have found aggressive and grouchy, frankly

If the "P people" called them legit and they aren't, and you posted it over there, it would be gone before you could hit refresh. gmarguli poses an ethical dilemma but without knowing the players or even what coins, it's difficult. Moxie15 causes me to rethink. Is the difference between 65 and 67 really the same as fake versus real though? As a "consignor" whose role is "to slab and sell". what is your obligation to your customer? At $10k value, I'd probably talk to an attorney. Doesn't seem like the "guarantee" would cover you as the middleman in a transaction where you knew another TPG called them counterfeits.

[RWB]

If authentication experts from two major companies disagree, then the owner is obligated to disclose that to any potential buyer and to sell the item as-is, where-is.

[Conder101]

Which would than bring up the question, what kind of bids would they receive?

And of course as mentioned earlier, it would be interesting to send the now certified as genuine coins back to the first company for cross over just to see what happens.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/31/2020 at 3:01 PM, VKurtB said:

If both TPG's involved are among "the big two", our hosts and the four-letter "word" starting with "P", you have a real conundrum. If either is ANACS or ICG, trust me, they're wrong and the one from the "big two" is right. If neither is among the "big two", your story has wasted my time.

And here I was thinking the fate of both NGC and ANACS were intricably and irretrievably intertwined.  I thought I read somewhere that NGC will not accept a submission for cross from an owner of an ANACS-holdered coin.

On 7/30/2020 at 10:50 PM, Big Nub numismatics said:

"hypothetical" you say. They are just humans after all. I would take it to get a few more looks, and see what other dealers/collectors say. I wouldn't let this person sell these coins without another opinion. 

Perhaps you could bust them out and send them to the other 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Re-wording.

[VKurtB]

5 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

And here I was thinking the fate of both NGC and ANACS were intricably and irretrievably intertwined.

Where on earth did you get that verkakte idea?

[VKurtB]

5 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I thought I read somewhere that NGC will not accept a submission for cross from an owner of an ANACS-holdered coin.

Yes, NGC. only accepts actual in-slab crossovers from PCGS. People who send in any other service are in effect submitting raw coins. When I send an ICG coin to NGC, I do crack it out, but I sometimes keep it in the readily identifiable ICG translucent insert. That way they know they’re likely reviewing an ICG coin.

[Henri Charriere]

35 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Yes, NGC. only accepts actual in-slab crossovers from PCGS. People who send in any other service are in effect submitting raw coins. When I send an ICG coin to NGC, I do crack it out, but I sometimes keep it in the readily identifiable ICG translucent insert. That way they know they’re likely reviewing an ICG coin.

There is a part of me that says, "I object! Leading the witness." Here's why... back when I was a clerk for a Diamond District emporium they would send me, with a diamond ring to be appraised --  only the ring would have attached to it a distinctive colored band and inventory number identifying it as, wink! wink!,

 

On 8/2/2020 at 3:09 PM, VKurtB said:

 

so-and-so jewelers. In Trump-speak: Unfair!  If you want a completely unbiased opinion, why would you do that? Even your rank amateur, ME!, wouldn't do that. 

[VKurtB]

I want the person who prepares those coins for the grading room to know the reputation of NGC is under examination here. It “sharpens the attention” a little. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Lancek said:

Not entirely true.  From NGC's website.  "or they may be submitted in their holders if they are accompanied by NGC's Consent to Remove Coin(s) from Holder(s) Form."

Obviously, I stand corrected.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/2/2020 at 8:40 AM, Moxie15 said:

Opinions, opinions, we rely on others opinions so much. Grading is an opinion we all know that. So whose opinion do you trust? 

Everyone here has seen coins in both company's holders that we disagreed with the grade. Both companies have graded counterfeits as genuine, both companies have graded genuine coins as counterfeits, so what to do?

I would start with a phone call to the first company to see if they would agree to a no cost second look. If they do not I would call the other to see if they would do the same. If not I would look to a third company or an industry accepted expert in the series. Is it moral to do nothing or sell them as is? I would say yes. The holder is the guaranty from the company, Is it immoral to sell a coin that NGC or PCGS graded MS 67  that you think is no more than MS65? 

Grades are opinions of a certain grader or graders of a certain company at a certain time, so is the authenticity, nothing more. 

I am not comfortable with the definition of opinion as used here. Wasn't this analogized with a certain unmentionable part of the human anatomy, followed by the phrase Everyone's got one? An opinion is what the weather's going to be like tomorrow which carries no value. On this very site a collector was mocked for rejecting the experienced assessment of a professional, highly-respected grader (Fred Weinberg?) who gets paid a fee to appraise a coin which may be pivotal to presenting it at an auction. An opinion is who's going to be the next Kentucky Derby winner to win the Triple Crown at Belmont backed by spurious claims and selective statistics. The only exceptions are opinions which are handed down by the various federal courts the majority of whom wouldn't be caught dead expounding upon their reasoning in a gossip column or as a guest on the talk show circuit.

[Conder101]

6 hours ago, Lancek said:

Not entirely true.  From NGC's website.  "or they may be submitted in their holders if they are accompanied by NGC's Consent to Remove Coin(s) from Holder(s) Form

Which is the same as sending in raw, not a crossover.  A crossover means that if it it won't cross at the same grade or better it gets returned in the original holder.  The permission to crackout means it can't comeback in the original holder.  So if it is treated like a crossover that would mean that you send it in in a slab and if it doesn't cross it comes back raw.

 

4 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

The only exceptions are opinions which are handed down by the various federal courts

Even those opinions get overturned, including Supreme Court decisions

[1917]

I think that it might make for a good few hours spent if you inquired to both companies why the said the coins were fake or legit. That, assuming you or the owner has the budget to do so, resubmit the coins to both companies for a second time... Although technically you could just accept the certification as legit b/c it was slabbed as such and move on...

[Crawtomatic]

On 8/5/2020 at 9:49 AM, VKurtB said:

Yes, NGC. only accepts actual in-slab crossovers from PCGS. People who send in any other service are in effect submitting raw coins. When I send an ICG coin to NGC, I do crack it out, but I sometimes keep it in the readily identifiable ICG translucent insert. That way they know they’re likely reviewing an ICG coin.

If I submit a lower tier 3rd party holdered coin I leave it in the holder and let NGC crack it out.  I know it'll be considered raw but since I don't crack out holders every day I leave that bit to somebody more experienced.

[VKurtB]

21 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

If I submit a lower tier 3rd party holdered coin I leave it in the holder and let NGC crack it out.  I know it'll be considered raw but since I don't crack out holders every day I leave that bit to somebody more experienced.

Yeah, I thought about doing that, but if you've read the release, they do not take any responsibility for damage while cracking out, and I have the right tools to do it (not a folding chair leg and a cowboy boot heel),so I do them myself.

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Yeah, I thought about doing that, but if you've read the release, they do not take any responsibility for damage while cracking out, and I have the right tools to do it (not a folding chair leg and a cowboy boot heel),so I do them myself.

Off-topic... with all your experience traipsing around branch mints and having had lunch with the mint director, I wonder whether you can clear up a suspicion I have harbored for a long time. True or patently false: some so-called coin errors are nothing more than the product of a compromised mint employee unethically intercepted after hours by an unknown party with a scheme and a bribe.