Dueling TPG Experts - What Would You Do? 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

The person processing the submission likely takes the coin out of the gasket. The graders probably never know that it arrived in a gasket. Even assuming it survives into the grading room, the first grader is going to remove it from the gasket to examine the edge and the second grader will have no idea about the gasket. 

I thought these were in-person submissions at a convention.

[gmarguli]

31 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

And if NGC offered a crossover on ICG coins, I'd have done it that way, but they don't. I've done this now 7 times total, and on all 7 occasions, the older ICG grade and the newer NGC grade matched exactly. My latest was a 1893-S Morgan that both had at VG8. It had been purchased RAW and sent to ICG originally. I trust older ICG grades just fine. Too much gradeflation recently.

You suffer from confirmation bias. You're interpreting your actions as having some affect on the outcome when in reality it has none. You see, when I mail my submissions I never use exact postage. I always round up to the next $10. That way the TPG knows that I'm not some piker who can only afford low end coins. I've done this 7 times and all 7 times I've received high grades. 

And having spoken to numerous graders over the years I can assure you they don't give a s*** that the coin they are grading was originally graded X by another TPG. 

[VKurtB]

10 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I thought these were in-person submissions at a convention.

Yes, you are correct. One coin, at the Winter FUN show in Ft. Lauderdale, in 2017. One and only coin on the form. Show encapsulation.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

10 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

You suffer from confirmation bias. You're interpreting your actions as having some affect on the outcome when in reality it has none. You see, when I mail my submissions I never use exact postage. I always round up to the next $10. That way the TPG knows that I'm not some piker who can only afford low end coins. I've done this 7 times and all 7 times I've received high grades. 

And having spoken to numerous graders over the years I can assure you they don't give a s*** that the coin they are grading was originally graded X by another TPG. 

I have only once mailed any coins to anyone. I drop them off at the next major show. I pay no postage, other than the return stuff.

[gmarguli]

11 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I have only once mailed any coins to anyone. I drop them off at the next major show. I pay no postage, other than the return stuff.

I assume you are intentionally missing the point so that you can remain correct in your own mind? 

[Henri Charriere]

I don't know from conventions. (The only convention I attended was the 30th anniversary of the Hindenburg zeppelin disaster at Lakehurst NAS in 1967.)  Now, as we've been told the grade assigned at a convention may not be the same as one assigned in a former Cold War missile silo repurposed since into a restricted-access room at a TPGS. Is this because the submitter of the coin for grading is parked right in front of the grader awaiting his assessment with baited breath?  Surely the comfort and privacy of a grading room, by contrast, provides the grader with anonymity and the freedom to make a determination without intrusive pressure.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Quintus Arrius
Re-wording.

[Henri Charriere]

42 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

You suffer from confirmation bias. You're interpreting your actions as having some affect on the outcome when in reality it has none. You see, when I mail my submissions I never use exact postage. I always round up to the next $10. That way the TPG knows that I'm not some piker who can only afford low end coins. I've done this 7 times and all 7 times I've received high grades. 

And having spoken to numerous graders over the years I can assure you they don't give a s*** that the coin they are grading was originally graded X by another TPG. 

I hate to have to echo your comment but I can likewise assure you that graders don't give a s*** who sent the package, or how much money was spent on stamps.  (I do hope you sent it registered.) The sheer volume of mail dictates that parcels be opened expeditiously and their contents carefully recorded. The only people who mail packages with extra postage are people who aren't sure if what they have posted is sufficient for delivery -- and mail bombers, for obvious reasons.

[Funny how I was ridiculed for my stance on pennies and here we have a guy who fairly boasts of rounding up his postage "to the next $10"!!!  As our mutual friend once lamented: "Perspective," please!]

1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

 

 

[Alex in PA.]

[Coinbuf]

33 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I hate to have to echo your comment but I can likewise assure you that graders don't give a s*** who sent the package, or how much money was spent on stamps.  (I do hope you sent it registered.) The sheer volume of mail dictates that parcels be opened expeditiously and their contents carefully recorded. The only people who mail packages with extra postage are people who aren't sure if what they have posted is sufficient for delivery -- and mail bombers, for obvious reasons.

[Funny how I was ridiculed for my stance on pennies and here we have a guy who fairly boasts of rounding up his postage "to the next $10"!!!  As our mutual friend once lamented: "Perspective," please!]

 

So you got out of coins what was that in the 60's or so according to you, but your now an expert on what current graders think.  

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I don't know from conventions. (The only convention I attended was the 30th anniversary of the Hindenburg zeppelin disaster at Lakehurst NAS in 1967.)  Now, as we've been told the grade assigned at a convention may not be the same as one assigned in a former Cold War missile silo repurposed since into a restricted-access room at a TPGS. Is this because the submitter of the coin for grading is parked right in front of the grader awaiting his assessment with baited breath?  Surely the comfort and privacy of a grading room, by contrast, provides the grader with anonymity and the freedom to make a determination without intrusive pressure.

When you do a "walk-through"at a show, the grading is done in the same building but not the same room. I was in a committee meeting at Pittsburgh in March of 2019 that was next door to where one of the TPGS were doing the physical slabbing, a really strange sound.

[Just Bob]

Am I the only one who realizes that Greg's post about mailing packages was a made-up scenario to prove a point?

[Henri Charriere]

45 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

So you got out of coins what was that in the 60's or so according to you, but your now an expert on what current graders think.  

I cannot tell you what graders think. I can tell you what they don't do.

I use left-over Christmas stamps in summer months to pay bills.  Do you really think a clerk opening the mail at a utility company cares, much less notices?  For occupation, on my marriage license, I put chiffonniere (accent grave over the second e). Do you really think anyone in a city bureaucracy noticed or was curious enough to Google that? How much postage should be on a Monster Box of silver bullion dollars? There, I gotcha!

Nobody knows; nobody cares. With Brasher Doubloons coming through the door, and God knows what else, graders are not daydreaming. They are busy doing their jobs. And if I am dead wrong, the three heavyweights on this Forum will let me know.

[Henri Charriere]

58 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

Am I the only one who realizes that Greg's post about mailing packages was a made-up scenario to prove a point?

Evidently not.

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

When you do a "walk-through"at a show, the grading is done in the same building but not the same room. I was in a committee meeting at Pittsburgh in March of 2019 that was next door to where one of the TPGS were doing the physical slabbing, a really strange sound.

For a moment, I did a double-take.  I thought you wrote physical stabbing. Cataracts...

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Alex in PA. said:

That bad, huh?

[Insider]

18 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I'll make a mental note to show you my 1970-S small date in NGC MS66RD. I showed it to Angel Dee's, and he said it wouldn't cross at 66RD at PCGS. and 65 was only a maybe. I'll look forward to getting your opinion.

LOL, my opinion and $2 will get you a bottle of water at the show.  I'll bet it has carbon spots.

[Insider]

18 hours ago, VKurtB said:

And if NGC offered a crossover on ICG coins, I'd have done it that way, but they don't. I've done this now 7 times total, and on all 7 occasions, the older ICG grade and the newer NGC grade matched exactly. My latest was a 1893-S Morgan that both had at VG8. It had been purchased RAW and sent to ICG originally. I trust older ICG grades just fine. Too much gradeflation recently.

I have found that the lower the grade, the closer EVERYONE who sees the coin will agree. Best Example: We get "raw" submissions from a former top grading service finalizer.  He puts minimum grades on the flips.   We agree with 98% of his grades UNTIL MS.  Then he is usually one grade higher than our standards.  He is also very liberal with faults on any coin.  "The coin is over a hundred years old; you should expect problems so they should not count for much."   Try that with the dealer you sell your "gems" to.   

[Insider]

18 hours ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

I thought you stated earlier that any submitter for crossover of a lower tier TPG would be sorely disappointed if they didn't submit it raw?  I feel like that statement implies a level of caring that this statement discredits.

I've explained this before:

I don't work at NGC so I don't know the reject rate for crossovers.   Every service wants the best coins around in their holders.  That's why we won't cross "junk" in any TPGS holder.  I'm sure that many ANACS and ICG coins get crossed but several customers tell me that after one of our coins does NOT CROSS in the ICG slab, it crosses when sent back raw at either top service.  I have wanted to publish these emails and letters on our website but why make waves.  

IMHO, ALL things considered, NGC is the #1 TPGS.  However, it is my opinion that a lower rated service is #1 in customer service, cost, and turnaround time.  So, why should the #1 TPGS, the #2 TPGS, and CAC for that matter want to prove that the two faster, lower priced, customer-friendly, second-tier major services can actually grade coins correctly in most cases?   Nevertheless, a coin is worth more money in a top TPGS slab with a sticker.  It beats me why someone would not try to cross every second tier slab.    

BTW, in many cases, I get to see the "fails" in ICG holders.  Most of the time, they are called "cleaned."   Since a large majority of vintage coins have been cleaned in some way in the past, this is the easiest way to reject a cross.  When the ANA Grading Guide lets coins with continuous hairlines to still be graded low MS, you can imagine how much wiggle room is allowed for improper cleaning!  

[Insider]

17 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I don't know from conventions. (The only convention I attended was the 30th anniversary of the Hindenburg zeppelin disaster at Lakehurst NAS in 1967.)  Now, as we've been told the grade assigned at a convention may not be the same as one assigned in a former Cold War missile silo repurposed since into a restricted-access room at a TPGS. Is this because the submitter of the coin for grading is parked right in front of the grader awaiting his assessment with baited breath?  Surely the comfort and privacy of a grading room, by contrast, provides the grader with anonymity and the freedom to make a determination without intrusive pressure.

The grading room is where coins are graded.  It is quiet, dark, and has uniform (as much as possible) conditions like your light, desk, chair, etc.   There are also other graders involved.  I've been grading coins for free at shows since 1973.  I don't care if a non-collector or famous dealer hands it to me for an opinion.  There is absolutely no pressure at all.  Remember, my opinion and $2 will buy the bottled water at the show. 

The coin get's the same examination but I would rather talk about the coin with a very knowledgeable numismatist. 

The ONLY time I feel pressure is trying to hit the exact grade on an ICG slab with a covered label because I'm not the finalizer at that service. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Insider

[Insider]

Lunch time over...see you.

[Conder101]

18 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Now, as we've been told the grade assigned at a convention may not be the same as one assigned in a former Cold War missile silo repurposed since into a restricted-access room at a TPGS. Is this because the submitter of the coin for grading is parked right in front of the grader awaiting his assessment with baited breath?

That is the VERBAL opinion given at the convention may not match the grade that comes back from the grading room.  Reason is the viewing conditions are different.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Insider said:

LOL, my opinion and $2 will get you a bottle of water at the show.  I'll bet it has carbon spots.

Carbon spots are not at issue. A contact mark in the obverse field is.

[Henri Charriere]

20 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Carbon spots are not at issue. A contact mark in the obverse field is.

Prosecution:  Objection, your Honor!  I request you direct the witness to answer the assertion made by the expert witness regarding the presence, if any, of carbon spots on the subject coin. . .

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Prosecution:  Objection, your Honor!  I request you direct the witness to answer the assertion made by the expert witness regarding the presence, if any, of carbon spots on the subject coin. . .

None. At. All.  By the way, if your cents keep coming up with carbon spots, you just might be a COVID-19 super-spreader.

Edited August 12, 2020 by VKurtB

[Revenant]

I think you either need to acknowledge the prior opinion when selling or re-submit around some.

It would not sit well with me to let someone hand over $1,000+ for a coin that I know a professional called a fake.

It is possible that the company that called it counterfeit just knew the coins were commonly faked and just didn't want the liability. I say this having no idea who was who and who looked at it. I just think its human nature to some degree to hedge if you think there's room for doubt.

[VKurtB]

16 minutes ago, Revenant said:

It is possible that the company that called it counterfeit just knew the coins were commonly faked and just didn't want the liability.

Yup. This.

[Revenant]

On 8/9/2020 at 9:22 PM, MarkFeld said:

That which you foresee, will never happen. And “never” is a word I use extremely sparingly.

Well, what he's saying will happen is a little like saying the England and France are going to agree to merge. Yeah. I suppose, in principle, it's possible, but... "Good luck." - Ain't happening.

[gmarguli]

1 hour ago, Revenant said:

It is possible that the company that called it counterfeit just knew the coins were commonly faked and just didn't want the liability. I say this having no idea who was who and who looked at it. I just think its human nature to some degree to hedge if you think there's room for doubt.

That would make sense except they have graded hundreds-to-thousands of them already. 

As for the coins, I've made arrangements for someone to look at them. If he says counterfeit, I'll return them to the owner and let him do what he feels best. 

[kbbpll]

On 8/12/2020 at 9:57 AM, Insider said:

It beats me why someone would not try to cross every second tier slab.

Because some of us don't care what slab it's in and don't sell our coins. I think that's the easiest answer. Whether I agree with the grade or not, it's not worth the effort playing the crackout game when I'm never going to sell anything anyway. My heirs can deal with it if they want to.

[Insider]

3 hours ago, gmarguli said:

That would make sense except they have graded hundreds-to-thousands of them already. 

As for the coins, I've made arrangements for someone to look at them. If he says counterfeit, I'll return them to the owner and let him do what he feels best. 

This thread is getting slightly better.  Now we know that NGC and PCGS have disagreed and "someone" is going to have the final word.  That's nice.  BTW, it all depends on who that "someone" is.  PM me and I'll give you the address of my blind grandmother for her opinion too.  Unfortunately, we still don't know what the coins are - very sad but this thread is hypothetical right?