French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

34 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Or to put it another way in a slightly different context, “empty album holes cause us to lose the ability to think and see.” The best thing I learned during one of my hiatus periods from the hobby is to stop worrying about missing coins and learn to enjoy the hunt.

 

VKurtB’s corollary to the above is the flip side - just because you have an album hole filled, NEVER stop looking for an upgrade.

Your advice is well-taken.  I also cannot help but feel that in the run-up on precious metals prices, some individuals use the opportunity to rid themselves of problematic stock.  Caveat emptor!

[VKurtB]

Just now, Quintus Arrius said:

Your advice is well-taken.  I also cannot help but feel that in the run-up on precious metals prices, some individuals use the opportunity to rid themselves of problematic stock.  Caveat emptor!

And so it has always been and ever will be.

[Henri Charriere]

7 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Or to put it another way in a slightly different context, “empty album holes cause us to lose the ability to think and see.” The best thing I learned during one of my hiatus periods from the hobby is to stop worrying about missing coins and learn to enjoy the hunt.

 

VKurtB’s corollary to the above is the flip side - just because you have an album hole filled, NEVER stop looking for an upgrade.

Your advice is well-taken.  I also cannot help but feel that in the run-up on precious metals prices, some individuals use the opportunity to rid themselves of problematic stock.  Caveat emptor!

***

Note:  I do not know if this is "legal," or against Forum guidelines or "simply isn't done," but for fellow members who were kind enough to test their grading skills and weigh in on an example of a top-shelf coin -- and anyone else who may be curious to determine the veracity of my claims as heretofore set forth, I provide (in the absence of a direct link) an eBay reference containing four views of the contested coin which may be found by typing:

1910 France Gold 20 Francs NGC MS 67.  (Certification No.: 607 7 279-005) spacing in numbers to make identification easier.

Bear in mind, the MS 67 grade has never been surpassed by any TPGS in this 16-coin series with a total mintage of some 117 million pieces.  I have dealt with the seller before who has a 100% satisfaction rating and has always treated me with courtesy, accommodation and professionalism befitting his sterling reputation. For the seasoned grader amongst us, you need look no further than the ability, if the device you use permits it, to magnify view #4, the reverse -- and render your decision, accordingly. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Can someone post nice obverse/reverse pics of a French Rooster ?

[Henri Charriere]

9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can someone post nice obverse/reverse pics of a French Rooster ?

[Cat Bath]

On 2/13/2021 at 7:03 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

PCGS (or divine intervention) unwittingly did me a favor by declining to cross-grade a coin previously certified MS-67-- which I hadn't yet taken delivery of, by offering a second opinion.

I stopped submitting to them after Brett started thinking he was a grader.

Straight crosses are doomed & his CAC obsession is going to drive people ATS.

Best I can do on the 1910 is a 66+ (The pictures on your 67 aren't good enough for me to tell)

Edited February 16, 2021 by Cat Bath

[GoldFinger1969]

How did the French come to use a rooster on their reverse ?

[Henri Charriere]

33 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

Best I can do on the 1910 is a 66+ (The pictures on your 67 aren't good enough for me to tell)

Just to clarify... a member asked to see a nice Rooster -- no particular date, with which he could compare to the one in question. I supplied a 1909 MS-67. (I don't know if your coin, one of only 7 graded 66+, is detailed enough to demonstrate the point I was trying to make. Have you viewed the coin in question?)

The number of 1910 French 20-franc gold roosters currently graded MS-67 by the two top TPGS can be counted on two hands; no Rooster of any date has been graded higher.

 

[Henri Charriere]

39 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How did the French come to use a rooster on their reverse ?

Unfortunately, the web runs rampant with inaccuracy and self-serving commentary. I will consult a few sites, here and abroad, and should have an accurate historical explanation for you shortly.  (Those lurking on the sidelines are free to jump in with what they may have heard or read as they see fit.) Incidentally, so high in regard is the rooster held in France that recently one municipality posted a sign at their municipality limits stating ambient noise such as pre-dawn crowing roosters are an integral part of rural life and city folk who object are no longer welcome.

[Cat Bath]

8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

 Have you viewed the coin in question?

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6077279-005/67/

I checked it out but can't decide based on the picture. I've heard PCGS is freaky about possible rim damage under the prongs.

That doesn't seem to stop them from direct crossing anything with a CAC sticker, which makes no sense to me.

Unless you check the box "any grade", I think they shelf it for 30 days & send it to the billing dept.

It would be a tough call to make, they really seem tight right now.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Cat Bath

[VKurtB]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Just to clarify... a member asked to see a nice Rooster -- no particular date, with which he could compare to the one in question. I supplied a 1909 MS-67. (I don't know if your coin, one of only 7 graded 66+, is detailed enough to demonstrate the point I was trying to make. Have you viewed the coin in question?)

The number of 1910 French 20-franc gold roosters currently graded MS-67 by the two top TPGS can be counted on two hands; no Rooster of any date has been graded higher.

 

I sense surprise in your tone. Why is that? These pups moved around a great deal.

Edited February 16, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

27 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I sense surprise in your tone. Why is that? These pups moved around a great deal.

My learned colleague, if you lose in District court, you can take your case to an Appeals court, and if you lose there you can go to the Supreme Court, the final arbiter and Law of the land.  That appears to be what is needed in this hobby: an independent authority with no vested interest in the outcome.

When there is a marked, discernable difference between two high-grade coins, the one in question, a 1910, and my own from 1909, only a year earlier graded by the same TPGS, something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and all the crack-outs and returns for resubmission or refund does nothing to address the problem.

[VKurtB]

11 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

My learned colleague, if you lose in District court, you can take your case to an Appeals court, and if you lose there you can go to the Supreme Court, the final arbiter and Law of the land.  That appears to be what is needed in this hobby: an independent authority with no vested interest in the outcome.

When there is a marked, discernable difference between two high-grade coins, the one in question, a 1910, and my own from 1909, only a year earlier graded by the same TPGS, something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and all the crack-outs and returns for resubmission or refund does nothing to address the problem.

But isn’t the nearly inexplicable question why there are any graded at these lofty grades at all?

[Woods020]

Send it to CAC. If it gets a gold bean you may be right. Isn’t their reason for existing kind of what you are arguing for?

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Woods020 said:

Send it to CAC. If it gets a gold bean you may be right. Isn’t their reason for existing kind of what you are arguing for?

I would like to stress that my coin, the 1909, which both NGC's Paris submission center and PCGS concurred was a MS-67 after cross-grading, is not the problem.

My problem is purchasing a coin one recognized TPGS has rendered a professional opinion on only to find it failed to pass muster with another (for what I believe was entirely justifiable reasons after I took a closer look under magnification. Now you would suggest submitting it to CAC.  But if my understanding of CAC (which accepts encapsulated coins only) is correct, they have the power to reject a submission but lack the power to overrule a grade, i.e., compel a seller to quarantine the coin in question pending re-certification.  

At present, buyers are limited to returning a coin and accepting a refund which reputable dealers have no problem doing, returning the coin to stock for re-sale thereby making their problem someone else's. Declining to sticker a coin is too passive and ineffective. It does not compel an owner to take action because it would be against his financial interest to do so.

[Henri Charriere]

21 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How did the French come to use a rooster on their reverse ?

Forgive me, Goldfinger1969, but I am not 'net savvy knowing nothing about links save for big cats and small jewelry chains.

If you would be kind enough to look up mintstategold.com, under "French Gold Rooster Investor Education" you will come across as fine a recitation of all the facts you seek (including the answer to the question I posed in this, my first and only post).

[Henri Charriere]

4 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Forgive me, Goldfinger1969, but I am not 'net savvy knowing nothing about links save for big cats and small jewelry chains.

If you would be kind enough to look up "French Gold Rooster Investor Education" you will come across as fine a recitation of all the facts you seek (including the answer to the question I posed in this, my first and only post).

 

[Henri Charriere]

12 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/6077279-005/67/

I checked it out but can't decide based on the picture. I've heard PCGS is freaky about possible rim damage under the prongs.

That doesn't seem to stop them from direct crossing anything with a CAC sticker, which makes no sense to me.

Unless you check the box "any grade", I think they shelf it for 30 days & send it to the billing dept.

It would be a tough call to make, they really seem tight right now.

I checked your link. Sorry, what I meant was on eBay which will permit you to enlarge the photo.

[Henri Charriere]

9 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

 

Another method...

Type in Mint State Gold.

Scroll down to "History of Popular Coins".

Tap: "French Gold Rooster."

[Henri Charriere]

10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

But isn’t the nearly inexplicable question why there are any graded at these lofty grades at all?

Quite frankly, yes with one curious exception: MS-69. An MS-67 is laudable where that grade applies. However -- and this is my own peculiar stance, I make two exceptions: a). I do not believe assigning a grade to a Proof coin makes any sense and, b). in my admittedly skewed viewpoint, MS-69 is an appraisal, by a respected authority confirming, in writing, that what you the proud owner have in your possession is "less than perfect," in a universe against which perfection is compared. I know that many will find this ridiculous if not offensive but that is how I feel about it.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/15/2021 at 9:39 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

How did the French come to use a rooster on their reverse ?

Following are excerpts from "French Gold Rooster Investor Education - Mint State Gold...

The use of the Gallic Rooster as a symbol came to France from the Romans.  In 58-52 BCE, the Roman's conquered the region and named it Gallia (Gaul). This sounded similar to another Roman word galus meaning rooster.  Because of the similarity between the two, Gaul would be confused with galus and so the association stuck.

In the 6th century CE, the Germanic Franks would conquer the Roman province.  In the 14th century, coins were inscribed with Francorum Rex (King of the Frank's in deference to the reign of Jean le Bon (1350-64).  By 1795 franc became the official name of the currency.

***

On the coin's obverse is an image of Marianne, a personification of liberty and reason and the national symbol of the French Republic; on the reverse is the rooster, the unofficial symbol of French pride and culture.

***

Reliefs on both sides of the Rooster were created by legendary French sculptor, medalist and presidential portraitist of France, Jules Clement Chaplain; the rooster is known to the French as le coq gaulois; his medals for Nicholas and Alexandria of Russia were said to be the finest ever struck.... Since 1878, the Monnaie de Paris has been the sole French mint producing coins.

[Cat Bath]

One for Quintus (I didn't know about these)

This one looks pretty darn nice. Population about 800

https://coins.ha.com/itm/france/france-republic-gold-proof-chaplain-s-marianne-bust-100-francs-2000-pr70-ultra-cameo-ngc-/a/3096-31063.s

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Cat Bath

[Henri Charriere]

46 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

One for Quintus (I didn't know about these)

This one looks pretty darn nice. Population about 800

https://coins.ha.com/itm/france/france-republic-gold-proof-chaplain-s-marianne-bust-100-francs-2000-pr70-ultra-cameo-ngc-/a/3096-31063.s

 

I have never seen this one. It's nice to know there are people thinking about me. Thanks, Cat!

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/4/2020 at 10:32 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Would anyone care to venture a guess as to why of the 117 million minted not a single rooster has been graded MS-67, or higher by any TPG service?

[My most recent comment #1, has been cleared by the editor. I assume it now resides somewhere in cyberlsnd largely because I never know whether to press the "x" or "clear editor"tab.

To summarize, a French news outlet reported the separate discovery of two large gold hoards comprised, in part, of 20-franc coins in what appeared to be varying degrees of Mint State condition. Bear in mind, there are eleven different series of 20-franc coins.

2-  A 1902 French 20-franc gold rooster PCGS-graded at MS-64, 3/0 (pop upgraded) should I receive it, without delay, has the potential to complete my already "completed" collection.

3.-  Judging by the strategy employed by the #3 ranked rooster set registrant at NGC, whose strategy and cunning in mounting a Blitzkrieg seemingly out of nowhere, I believe he has the promise and potential to become the All-Time King of the Roosters for generations to come and I wish him the best of luck. 

[GoldFinger1969]

I found some Roosters in the Heritage Archives, lots of interesting coins but no in-depth text accompanying it.  Still, might pay to scan and hit them up 1-by-1 and see if you uncover some nuggets of info.

[Henri Charriere]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:30 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I found some Roosters in the Heritage Archives, lots of interesting coins but no in-depth text accompanying it.  Still, might pay to scan and hit them up 1-by-1 and see if you uncover some nuggets of info.

Thank you!  I am much obliged!

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/14/2021 at 11:14 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not know if the following question merits a separate post but as the ranking, rank amateur, whose less than stellar status has never been challenged successfully before, I thought I would pose it here, the only derail-proof thread on the Forum, as follows:

What does it cost to submit a coin for certification?  The reason this question has no standard response is because of all the variables involved which includes, apparently much to the surprise of my learned colleague @Goldfinger1969, the Fair Market Value of the coin submitted.

Today, I broke with tradition and decided to fill the gap-toothed smile on my Set Registry's "short set," 1907 thru 1914, by submitting for NGC's approval a 1912 PCGS specimen graded at MS-66 for cross-grading consideration.  Concerned with market- vs detail-grading I chose the "better" of the two MS-66's I own.  That being said, let us now consider the cost of submitting such a coin for your edification, viewing amusement and pleasure.

The standard NGC Submission Form was straight-forward enough. Type of Submission: World (as opposed to US); Grading Tier: Gold/World (with a maximum value not to exceed $3,000. I pegged mine at $600 (though I saw one for sale in Europe for $700.)  That's $30.  The handling fee was $10. (time being money) and the shipping and insurance fee was $26. (based on 1 to 5 coins, valued at between $1-$1,000. Subtotal: $66.

Now on to the social-distance practicing USPS. I purchased a $66. postal money order for $67.30. I was talked into choosing 3-day Priority Mail (weight 2.20 oz., cost $8.80) and avoiding Registration as, in the opinion of the clerk, it was superfluous and expensive.  I am a risk-taker, so I agreed, had the package insured for $500 with a tracking number for $16. and $7.20 for a Grand Total of $83.30 (a figure which doesn't quite add up to what it should, but minor in the grand scheme of things.)

Mind you, this service is as simple as Submission gets. We have a coin that was already certified. If successfully crossed, I am technically a winner. My learned colleague, Coinbuf would beg to differ as he has vowed repeatedly he would not yield to being a slave to any label.  If NGC refuses the cross-grade, I am effectively out at least $83.30 on something I have nothing to show for except that somewhat annoying gap-toothed smile in my album. The point I would like to make is carefully weigh the total cost of the item you have against the total cost of having it encapsulated. I thank you all for your time and attention -- and feedback.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/14/2021 at 7:30 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Bear in mind, the MS 67 grade has never been surpassed by any TPGS in this 16-coin series with a total mintage of some 117 million pieces.  

How many of those 117 million SURVIVE to this day ?  Also, I suspect it was possible that French Roosters circulated alot more than American Double Eagles (Liberty's, Saints).

Still surprising that NO grade higher than MS-67 has been given out.  You would expect a few MS68's...69's tougher unless preserved properly by collectors over the decades.

I think aside from the Proofs/UHRs that no Saints except one graded MS-69 prior to the Wells Fargo Hoard.  That jumped the total by 10. 

On 4/20/2021 at 3:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

To summarize, a French news outlet reported the separate discovery of two large gold hoards comprised, in part, of 20-franc coins in what appeared to be varying degrees of Mint State condition. Bear in mind, there are eleven different series of 20-franc coins.

20 francs was the Rooster denomination ?

Any links to these gold hoards ?  

France was the home to numerous hoards of U.S. gold coins, you'd think they'd find some of theirs, too !  

Edited May 6, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

17 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

How many of those 117 million SURVIVE to this day ?  Also, I suspect it was possible that French Roosters circulated alot more than American Double Eagles (Liberty's, Saints).

Still surprising that NO grade higher than MS-67 has been given out.  You would expect a few MS68's...69's tougher unless preserved properly by collectors over the decades.

I think aside from the Proofs/UHRs that no Saints except one graded MS-69 prior to the Wells Fargo Hoard.  That jumped the total by 10. 

20 francs was the Rooster denomination ?

Any links to these gold hoards ?  

France was the home to numerous hoards of U.S. gold coins, you'd think they'd find some of theirs, too !  

Yes, the Rooster was the very last of the long line of gold 20-franc pieces.

No one knows how many were melted or still exist.

It was recently brought to my attention that two separate gold hoards were discovered by the new owners of an abandoned house, as reported by a French News agency and a member here PM me about a lead I never considered: abandoned safe deposit boxes the contents of which are apparently dispatched quietly (with minimal publicity) to auction houses for disposal -- one of which contained a nice well-preserved cache of Mint State roosters. A full accounting of the inventory is rarely publicized until previous owners, or their descendants, are located. Anecdotally, I can confirm that the number of Rooster certifications are up considerably in the last two years but none have breached the invisible MS-67 line.

While only 16 are needed to complete the series, I have 20 I would like to hold and may very well sell off the rest or use them to make strategic acquisitions.

[Woods020]

QA,

I admittedly couldn’t know less about this set, but I ran across a seller on eBay that has several gem graded roosters for sale. MS66/67. Not sure if this is what you are looking for or need but passing it along. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373489344078?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28