Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Give an assist to CatBath who first posted about this. 

I forgot; it wasn't intentional.  I've just got caught up in this excitement.  I do think reading about sunken treasure or buried treasure always exciting.  

 

On 5/26/2022 at 7:02 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe Elon Musk can get the gold. 

Hey, doesn't he have plenty of money?    But everybody loves gold.  There's just something about it.

[VKurtB]

Ahem! No, “everybody” does not love gold. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:18 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahem! No, “everybody” does not love gold. 

Oops!  My bad.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:22 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Oops!  My bad.

Kurt = William Jennings Bryan. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:18 PM, VKurtB said:

Ahem! No, “everybody” does not love gold. 

This is blasphemous! Scandalous! I am going to pretend I didn't see this.  🙃  🐓 

[RWB]

If the ship had hit bottom upright, the chances were very good that anything in the mail vault would have remained inside the wreck.

I checked my available Ex/Im records and do not find anything of the magnitude claimed in popular articles.

The diver's comments imply that proper salvage protocols were ignored, and the first group of divers merely ripped through everything they could hoping to find gold. It also seems that what they found was largely junk.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/26/2022 at 11:59 PM, RWB said:

If the ship had hit bottom upright, the chances were very good that anything in the mail vault would have remained inside the wreck. I checked my available Ex/Im records and do not find anything of the magnitude claimed in popular articles. The diver's comments imply that proper salvage protocols were ignored, and the first group of divers merely ripped through everything they could hoping to find gold. It also seems that what they found was largely junk.

Sure seems like it.....yet that guy with legal claim to the haul apparently still believes and is raising $$$.  Maybe something comes of it, who knows.

The higher gold price today vs. most of the last 35 years makes it a now-or-never thing, IMO.

[GoldFinger1969]

I wonder if anybody here or over at PCGS/CU is an investor in that shipwreck salvage.

[DWLange]

This thread has veered so far astray from Roger's book that it may be time to start a new one having a more germane title.

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:31 PM, DWLange said:

This thread has veered so far astray from Roger's book that it may be time to start a new one having a more germane title.

[In deference to you and the principal participants on this Topic, I have withdrawn the comment and will refrain from commenting further. Carry on, gentlemen.]

[RWB]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:31 PM, DWLange said:

This thread has veered so far astray from Roger's book that it may be time to start a new one having a more germane title.

Do enough members write German to make that practical?

Yes, it has strayed..... If we could download the full 63 pages, that extra material could be removed and a concise version made available to interested parties -- with, of course, the NGC credit line on the entire product.

Edited May 28, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:31 PM, DWLange said:

This thread has veered so far astray from Roger's book that it may be time to start a new one having a more germane title.

Dave, things get slow at times and this SS Republic and the prospect of an influx of thousands or tens of thousands of Saint seemed to energize the thread (I never heard or read about it, even with the Saint-Gaudens possibility).  Maybe the SS Republic should have had its own thread but a member posted it here (I had no objection and I created this thread) and we went a few pages on it.

No harm...no foul. 

I think it's mostly played out so if folks have questions or comments (RWB, CatBath, myself, and Alex seem to be the ones most active here) on Saints in general or the book specifically......happy to discuss Saints/The Book.

If anything material on the SS Republic hits in coming weeks or months (years ?), I'll create a dedicated thread unless someone beats me to it. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

Sounds copacetic to me.  🐓  

[RWB]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Sounds copacetic to me.  🐓  

Is that the famous night club in Miami or Havana or Colorado Springs ?

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969 Close. The Copacabana. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1933 Saint & Ernest Kehr  EC, besides reading some of the in-depth coverage of the trial from CoinWeek, I was wondering if you had read the stuff on the 1933 in Roger's book ?  What about the original Stacks 2002 auction catalog (David Tripp's piece) on the 1933 when Weitzman won the coin  ?

I was re-reading the 1933 section in RWB's book....one curious/funny thing that threw me (a little)....maybe it's because the 1st name sounds like it should be for an older person (like my grandfather, also named "Ernest" ) but I just assumed that Ernest A. Kehr, the guy who worked for The New York Herald Tribune, was some older coin/stamp collector now writing about them and was probably in his 50's or 60's (if not older).  Actually, he was only 33 years old when he got involved in the 1944 dustup involving the sales of the 1933 Saints.

It also appears his column was syndicated, not exclusive to the NYHT.  He was on the radio alot....and really promoted stamp collecting (where it appears he spent most of his time/efforts).  Wikepedia says he did 2,000 shows on radio AND TV (but I bet they don't have copies) promoting stamp/coin collecting.

He died in NYC (where he lived) in 1986 aged 75. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

A very short but informative article from the Queens Chronicle on Ernest Kehr, if you are interested:

https://www.qchron.com/qboro/i_have_often_walked/ernest-kehr-placed-his-stamp-on-queens-collecting/article_734fff66-42e0-5ce5-89d3-c623be907a26.html

He was the personal stamp advisor to Cardinal Spellman !!

[RWB]

On 5/29/2022 at 11:47 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

A very short but informative article from the Queens Chronicle on Ernest Kehr, if you are interested:

https://www.qchron.com/qboro/i_have_often_walked/ernest-kehr-placed-his-stamp-on-queens-collecting/article_734fff66-42e0-5ce5-89d3-c623be907a26.html

He was the personal stamp advisor to Cardinal Spellman !!

Ahhhh.....a toady stamp-licker....

[GoldFinger1969]

Trade & Survivorship:  One of the interesting trends you notice reading Roger's book is that survivorship is inextricably linked to international trade (mintage also matters, but not as much as you might think).

In years where international trade takes off, you have more gold shipped overseas, especially to South/Central American and Europe.  These coins were held by individuals, institutions, and SDBs.  But they escaped the gold melting of the 1930's.

Where trade dried up, you kept more of your domestic gold production and less was shipped overseas.  Of course, the extreme case was during WW I when there was virtually no trade and from 1917-1919 no Double Eagles were minted.  Another clear connection is the small numbers of the "Fab Fives" (1928-32 Saints) that were shipped overseas following the stock market crash and the onset of the Great Depression, Smoot-Hawley trade barriers, global currency debasements, etc.

The Roarin' Twenties saw the U.S. escape the recession of 1920-21 and the rest of the world escape the carnage of WW I so economic activity was good.....plenty of SG Double Eagles sent overseas or south of the border and these issues remain very plentiful with a couple of exceptions.

The correlation isn't perfect as it doesn't hold as much for earlier years (i.e., 1907-1908 during The Panic of 1907).  But international trade increased alot more in 20 years after WW I for a number of reasons (early globalization, rebuilding of Europe, Dawes Plan, etc.).

Edited June 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Cat Bath]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

 

Where trade dried up, you kept more of your domestic gold production and less was shipped overseas. 

Always thought the number of mints involved in making DEs -vs- world events was interesting.

1...1907

3...1908 1909 1910 1911

1...1912

3...1913 1914

2...1915

1...1916

0...1917 1918 1919

2...1920

1...1921

2...1922 1923

3...1924 1925 1926 1927

1...1928 1929 1930

2...1931

1...1932 1933

I still want to see that 1917 working hub when they find it in the archives 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Cat Bath

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:34 PM, Cat Bath said:

Always thought the number of mints involved in making DEs -vs- world events was interesting.

Good point....also, SanFran/Denver vs. Philly depending on if Asian vs. European trade was going to dominate.  I guess South & Central America could draw Double Eagles from either set of mints.

Your list really shows the lack of demand for DEs right after WW I.  A mini-depression in 1920-21 didn't help.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:34 PM, Cat Bath said:

I still want to see that 1917 working hub when they find it in the archives 

Is that legit ?  I guess they would have been prepared by making one although as the War deepened maybe they knew they'd not be minting DEs.

Somewhere in the bowels of the (old) Philly Mint ?

[RWB]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:34 PM, Cat Bath said:

I still want to see that 1917 working hub when they find it in the archives

Hubs and dies for 1917-date coinage were prepared in 1916 as was normally done. Working dies would have been shipped in December. Once Treasury decided to suspend gold coin manufacture, all dies would have been returned and destroyed along with the dated hubs. The only US gold dated 1917 was McKinley's commemorative dollar.

[DWLange]

It's doubtful that there was any lack of demand for double eagles following the war. It was simply Treasury policy to not coin additional pieces until the world's post-war economies had settled into a new definition of normal. Few nations were able to sustain any gold standard after suspending it during the war. Britain tried in 1925 and nearly destroyed its domestic economy, which led to nationwide strikes the following year. It remained on the gold standard in name only until finally declaring it dead in 1931.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:58 PM, DWLange said:

It's doubtful that there was any lack of demand for double eagles following the war. It was simply Treasury policy to not coin additional pieces until the world's post-war economies had settled into a new definition of normal. Few nations were able to sustain any gold standard after suspending it during the war. Britain tried in 1925 and nearly destroyed its domestic economy, which led to nationwide strikes the following year. It remained on the gold standard in name only until finally declaring it dead in 1931.

You had a severe economic contraction in the U.S. in 1920-21.  It gets overlooked between WWI, The Roaring Twenties, and The Depression.

You are right about Great Britain.  They kept the pound too high and it retarded economic growth until they finally cut the cord in 1931.

[DWLange]

I've written about the recession of 1921-22 and its effects on coinage many times in my column for The Numismatist, so this factor was not overlooked. In the 20th Century the market for double eagles, and gold coins in general, operated separately from the domestic economy. They were not a circulating medium.

[VKurtB]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:04 PM, DWLange said:

I've written about the recession of 1921-22 and its effects on coinage many times in my column for The Numismatist, so this factor was not overlooked. In the 20th Century the market for double eagles, and gold coins in general, operated separately from the domestic economy. They were not a circulating medium.

You can even see that ending their gold standards VERY CLOSELY correlates with recovery in Western economies. I’d go so far as to call it causation. 

[RWB]

DE had two practical functions: 1) convenient export of gold and, 2) required backing for gold certificates. Very few ever circulated as money.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:04 PM, DWLange said:

I've written about the recession of 1921-22 and its effects on coinage many times in my column for The Numismatist, so this factor was not overlooked. 

I meant it was overlooked by many history books and folks who read about the time period.  I didn't really learn about it until I read Milton Friedman/Anna Schwartz "A Monetary History Of The United States" like 20 years ago.

Edited June 7, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:27 PM, RWB said:

DE had two practical functions: 1) convenient export of gold and, 2) required backing for gold certificates. Very few ever circulated as money.

Right, but a stronger correlation to international trade, that's what me and CatBath were noting.  I agree with your statement here and Dave's statement that their circulation had little to do with the domestic economy.

As trade increased, you were more likely to ship DEs overseas -- which would then avoid melting.  That was my point.