Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,042 posts in this topic

On 5/24/2022 at 12:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Actually, there is. Case in point, that 1933. How else to get around that garish leg wound?

I wouldn't be suspicious of a 5-figure coin just because it was in a "pre-TrueView holder". That strikes me as being paranoid.

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On 12/22/2021 at 3:58 PM, RWB said:

....Today, the TPGs present their "attributions" as not only absolute, but publish nothing before or after attribution. Thus, knowledgeable hobby persons have no input and TPGs present no objective analysis.

The minimum I would expect are: 1) a thorough documentation of physical characteristics, 2) a factual empirical description of surfaces, 3) carefully calibrated XRF alloy data, 4) a written discussion of production characteristics germane to the coin, 5) provenance, 6) and factual historical research including context. This would be provided to multiple persons with expertise in the series, production, equipment and related...

[Note: I am well aware this comment is 5 months old.]

INMYHO, recognizing this would be a labor-intensive project, barring a generous grant from a private party or access to a sympathetic, influential person who can tap into the time and infinite resources of the Federal Government, this step in the right direction, regrettably, will remain a pipe dream. (Consider that your average person is unable to name the individuals depicted on each of the denominations of paper money now in circulation.)

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On 3/25/2022 at 3:35 PM, RWB said:

The Nazis (German ones) 

[As opposed to ... ?]

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On 5/24/2022 at 12:58 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[As opposed to ... ?]

You don’t want to know. It’s a political hit job. 

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On 5/24/2022 at 1:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Actually, there is. Case in point, that 1933. How else to get around that garish leg wound?

Would love to hear EC's thoughts on the gash in the leg.  Of course, defects or no defects, it's still the only legal 1933 Saint out there. 

Beggars can't be choosey. xD

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What's a TrueView holder ?  I know the TrueView pics that everybody likes (well, most of us)....what is a TrueView holder or pre-TrueView holder ?

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On 5/24/2022 at 2:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Would love to hear EC's thoughts on the gash in the leg.  Of course, defects or no defects, it's still the only legal 1933 Saint out there. 

Beggars can't be choosey. xD

[I seriously doubt any thoughts would be forthcoming. Now that I know who EC is, I regret making the comment.  No one wants to have his purchase critiqued. In his favor, the piece is unique. Condition is just a consideration and not essential. I have never read a thread quite like this one and appreciate your referral.]    🐓 

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On 5/24/2022 at 11:48 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Would love to hear EC's thoughts on the gash in the leg.  Of course, defects or no defects, it's still the only legal 1933 Saint out there. 

Beggars can't be choosey. xD

Yeah, she took a tumble down the stairs and got a huge gash. But in the end, it doesn't matter. The 1933 DE is unique and John Albanese likes it. (shrug)

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On 5/24/2022 at 2:58 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Now that I know who EC is, I regret making the comment.  No one wants to have his purchase critiqued. 

I don't think you can criticize the purchase.  It's the ONLY 1933.  If there were multiple 1933's available, then you can quibble on the choice to buy or the dollars paid.

You either buy the 1933 as-is...or you don't.  If you don't, you can't have The Ultimate Saint Collection in those registry rankings that some of you love (I'm not a registry guy myself, but will be watching EC's collection).

On 5/24/2022 at 3:08 PM, Elite Collection said:

Yeah, she took a tumble down the stairs and got a huge gash. But in the end, it doesn't matter. The 1933 DE is unique and John Albanese likes it. (shrug)

Hey, if you EVER get tired of it, I'll take it off your hands.   In the words of Homer Simspon...."Do you accept 3rd-party, post-dated, out-of-state checks ?"  xD

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2022 at 3:08 PM, Elite Collection said:

Yeah, she took a tumble down the stairs and got a huge gash.

Has this been looked into, in the past ?  Relative to the condition in the rest of the coin (very nice! (thumbsu), you wonder how that mark came about.  I wonder if it was even dropped or banged-around decades ago?

Doesn't look to be a bag mark/ding off the mint presses.  Now, the coin spent alot of time overseas and then with Fenton so who knows what happened then....and it wasn't in a protective holder (hope you have the holder, EC !!).

BTW....I think there was a debate at one point if the Farouk/Fenton/EC coin was the same as one that was called the "original" Farouk coin.   I would think that this coin with a noticeable dent in the leg would be easily ID'd.  Again, I don't know why some people say that the current coin is not the Original Farouk coin but I remember seeing the debate (maybe on the PCGS/CU boards?).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/24/2022 at 3:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

....and it wasn't in a protective holder (hope you have the holder, EC !!).

Respectfully, I distinctly recall one of the more notable departures from the standard certification procedure was honoring the buyer's request that the coin be delivered minus encapsulation.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2022 at 3:08 PM, Elite Collection said:

John Albanese likes it.

The 1933 has a CAC sticker, right ?

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/24/2022 at 8:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Respectfully, I distinctly recall one of the more notable departures from the standard certification procedure was honoring the buyer's request that the coin be delivered minus encapsulation.

I remember that departure from normal procedure.....but given the special nature of the coin, I'm not surprised.  EC certainly had a say in that, maybe he can give us more details.

Is the coin not in a holder now ?  Personally, I'd be very afraid of the coin being dropped or something if I was in the habit of holding it or showing it around.  And you certainly can't show it/display it as the risk is too high.  But maybe it's in a double-velvet pouch or something in a vault and never moves so no risk of getting dinged.

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Both PCGS and NGC went to see the coin at Sotheby's and graded the coin MS 65 outside of the holder, which is very rare. And John Albanese also saw it and said he would sticker it at MS 65 if it was ever holdered. After I won, I sent it into PCGS and then CAC. It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder. https://www.coinnews.net/2021/07/28/pcgs-encapsulates-legendary-1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle/

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Perfectly understandable. Who would not want to hold such a rare treasure in one's hand just once before encapsulation for who knows how long? 

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On 5/24/2022 at 9:20 PM, Elite Collection said:

Both PCGS and NGC went to see the coin at Sotheby's and graded the coin MS 65 outside of the holder, which is very rare. And John Albanese also saw it and said he would sticker it at MS 65 if it was ever holdered. After I won, I sent it into PCGS and then CAC. It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder. https://www.coinnews.net/2021/07/28/pcgs-encapsulates-legendary-1933-saint-gaudens-double-eagle/

Looks like you have the best of the lot, too!

:)

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Posted (edited)

Grading the 33 is pretty much irrelevant and I suspect JA would have stickered it even if it was cleaned.

PCGS & CAC both want their brand associated with it.

It is regarded as the holy grail of coins by many. 

Edited by Cat Bath
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On 5/24/2022 at 9:20 PM, Elite Collection said:

Both PCGS and NGC went to see the coin at Sotheby's and graded the coin MS 65 outside of the holder, which is very rare. And John Albanese also saw it and said he would sticker it at MS 65 if it was ever holdered. After I won, I sent it into PCGS and then CAC. It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder.

Congrats !!  (thumbsu  JA has a reputation for being a tough grader of gold/Saints. 

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Posted (edited)

Question for Roger...:hi:

The RMS Republic sank on 24 January 1909 & was reported to have $3,000,000 worth of freshly minted double eagles in the hold. (1909 value) It sank off Nantucket & was presumably bound for Russia.

My question is what saint might take a huge price hit if the coins are found, assuming many MS66 examples are recovered?

The 1908 Motto in MS66 is $50,000 right now & the 1909 is $125,000 

(I have an 1908-D Motto & a 1909-S so I assume I'm safe :bigsmile:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Republic_(1903)

Just a fun little 'what-if' to keep things interesting on Goldfinger's most excellent thread.

https://www.tampafp.com/owners-of-fabled-shipwreck-rms-republic-release-confidential-treasure-map-pointing-to-a-7-billion-recovery/

[From the article] "As of this writing, we have more than $1.5 million investor funds committed toward 2022 recovery operations."

Edited by Cat Bath
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Posted (edited)

The double eagles would likely have been dated 1908 or 1907 (Liberty). Salt water damage would limit them to "Sea Salvage" condition, and therefore they should not enter price competition with normal DE. When/If located, they would be promoted much like the Central America gold -- that is, sold to suckers for excessive prices. If 1908-date they would have to compete with the other sucker-lot of 1908 Type 1 pieces sold a few decades ago. (Gold for the Atlantic Fleet would likely be in half eagles, plus silver.)

Nothing discusses the failed recovery attempts and the long delay in salvaging the wreck. The "Treasure Location Report" is more investor enticement than useful in recovery.

Edited by RWB
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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2022 at 10:02 PM, Cat Bath said:

Grading the 33 is pretty much irrelevant and I suspect JA would have stickered it even if it was cleaned.

PCGS & CAC both want their brand associated with it.

It is regarded as the holy grail of coins by many. 

You suspect incorrectly. That type of logic would lead to CAC stickering many or most of the 1804 Dollars, as well. How many have you seen with stickers?

Edited by MarkFeld
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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, Cat Bath said:

The RMS Republic sank on 24 January 1909 & was reported to have $3,000,000 worth of freshly minted double eagles in the hold. (1909 value) It sank off Nantucket & was presumably bound for Russia.

Wow, I never heard of this....it's not even mentioned in QDB's Double Eagles Red Book which I though listed all the major shipwrecks involving DEs.

Great post Cat....can NOT believe I never saw this mentioned when reading about shipwrecks, Russia, or Saint/Liberty DEs.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2022 at 1:10 AM, Cat Bath said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Republic_(1903)

Just a fun little 'what-if' to keep things interesting on Goldfinger's most excellent thread.

https://www.tampafp.com/owners-of-fabled-shipwreck-rms-republic-release-confidential-treasure-map-pointing-to-a-7-billion-recovery/

[From the article] "As of this writing, we have more than $1.5 million investor funds committed toward 2022 recovery operations."

Fascinating......you learn something new all the time here at NGC and on this thread (thumbsu....I can't believe I never came across this.

There definitely were DEs on that boat, but it's unclear as to whether they were Liberty's or Saints.  Looks like ownership of the loot could also be in dispute.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Posted (edited)
On 5/25/2022 at 7:48 AM, RWB said:

When/If located, they would be promoted much like the Central America gold -- that is, sold to suckers for excessive prices. If 1908-date they would have to compete with the other sucker-lot of 1908 Type 1 pieces sold a few decades ago. (Gold for the Atlantic Fleet would likely be in half eagles, plus silver.)

I don't think you'd have the "suckers" chasing this, Roger.  The SSCA in 2000 was new...it was unique...had a great story...and the internet had just started so that there still was an information void.

You won't find the DEs from this shipwreck being sold at 10x market value because I think most buyers will Google what happened in the past or what comparables today sell for.....the big difference is even if sold for a nominal premium to gold bullion, that price today is 6x higher than what it was in 1999-2001.

So whoever finds/gets the coins should be able to recover costs and make a decent profit just by selling the coins at FMV or spot bullion (~ 1,900/oz.)

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 5/24/2022 at 2:50 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What's a TrueView holder ?  I know the TrueView pics that everybody likes (well, most of us)....what is a TrueView holder or pre-TrueView holder ?

Wild guess: it is a holder that allows the viewer to examine the edge of a coin held in it.  You know, finger-like prongs as opposed to the recessed hole.

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On 5/25/2022 at 10:07 AM, Alex in PA. said:

In searching the Web I cannot find if any of the loot was yet recovered.

I don't think so....they haven't raised the $$$ or gotten the salvage equipment yet according to the September 2021 article.

I think they also need to make sure that the salvage will be profitable.  They want to be 100% sure that the gold/DEs are there....if not, they could take a bath financially.  SSCA had 15 tons of gold; this ship may have had 45 tons.  But most of it may have to be sold as bullion -- even the DEs -- which changes the calculus.

Also, if for any reason the gold/DEs are spread over a large area, that increases the costs tremendously.  Unlikely, but something you want to verify before spending the big $$$ on the salvage.

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Posted (edited)

Looks like they can't find the gold...nobody has the ship's layout schematics....I'm not sure they can launch a salvage without them...tried 30+ years ago and fruitless....well, at least they found the wine cellar :bigsmile::

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bayerle

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Posted (edited)
On 5/24/2022 at 9:20 PM, Elite Collection said:

It's now in a PCGS MS 65 CAC holder. 

Just curious...any thought to putting it into an NGC holder ? 

I mean, for such a unique coin, I don't think you need worry about any premium or discount upon resale (if ever sold). :bigsmile:

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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