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Bochiman et al. drinking the Kool Aid ATS..........

132 posts in this topic

I missed the part where Bochiman was appointed as the voice of PCGS.

 

What I observed in that thread was a new poster showing off the results of his submission, accurately noting they were graded by NGC. He wasn't in any way "promoting" NGC, he wasn't in any way in violation of PCGS stated "undemocratic rules" for their chat board.

 

Bochiman and others went out of their way to bury in the most unwelcoming way, a poster who was doing exactly what a US coins forum is suppose to do. Spark discussion about US coins.

 

They have a PM feature where Bochiman could have privately contacted the poster to express his displeasure with the post, but doing so would deprive Bochiman of his self appointed role of decider of right and wrong.

 

Let me tell you right from wrong, taking a new poster out to be shot for posting something that rubs you the wrong way is a sure way to run off an otherwise positive contributor. THAT deprives everyone else of the potential to learn something new from the poster.

 

Golden Corral needs a policeman at their salad bar. I think I know who's up to the task.

 

+1, well said.

 

That's pretty par for the course as a "welcome" ATS.

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PCGS wears NGC pajamas to bed.... let's see if the know it all has a comeback for this :devil:

 

If you have a point to make, make it.

He is right here.

You apparently have something to relay. What is it?

 

 

Lame :boo:

 

I understand. You don't have a point.

You just decided to mouth off, and got called on it.

No problem. I don't mind and never did mind being called names.

It is part of life.

I do try to be courteous, to those that are of like mind.

To those that are not, or have a desire to bully or attack others, I admit to not walking in the middle of the road.

If it offends you, don't read what I post, and don't respond. No reason for you to waste your time.

 

 

Because Bill Jones is a Bully right? He stated what he wanted and you go all Rambo him... chill out man

 

I see. I offended a friend, by asking him to explain what was the point of a Post.

I would think if he wanted to answer, he would. Rambo? Chill out man?

Think what you will. It is not important.

It couldn't be that he might have been hinting at a failure of grading by PCGS, as opposed to NGC, would it?

How would that be helpful to the issue being discussed?

 

I don't know Bill from Adam in the real world. However, after years of posting I know he means no harm. He stated what he wanted and it pertained to his experiences. In one sentence he added more useful information that you have in your fan boy paragraphs. Your user name is a troll name and to be honest I am done feeding the troll.... or fanboy.... not sure which just yet.

 

lol

 

OK. Fair enough.

 

I guess that your interpretation could be a logical one, concerning Mr. Jones' Post.

 

I will explain why it may not be a logical interpretation.

 

Mr. Jones' Post was in re. to a Post by brg5648. There were several Posts between the 2. It was not as if it was a follow-on Post.

 

The brg Post was in response to a Post by Mr. Feld. The brg Post, a little humorous and possibly condescending, depending on how someone wishes to interpret, was directed to Mr. Feld.

 

Mr. Jones decides to then Post an observation that does not make sense in the context of the Thread, and references the brg Post, specifically.

 

He states: "....One thing I have noted about PCGS is that they are more prone to net grading than NGC ......".

 

Why post this? It seemed out of context. I assumed there must be a reason, since the ATS Post was not initiated as a net grading discussion. I posed the question: is that a negative and what is the point, especially since his Post was in re. to brg Post, which had nothing to do with net grading.

 

This seems to offend you. I guess, in retrospect, I should have asked "please". That might have avoided your Rambo, etc. interpretations.

 

The Post is stating that Mr. Jones has noted NGC is less prone to net grade than PCGS is. Fair enough. I ask for clarification: is this a negative? What is the point?

If it is useful information, I assumed Mr. Jones would gladly share the point of his observation, and why it may or not be a negative observation. He chose not to. That is his prerogative. Nothing wrong with this.

 

That brings us to your perceptions of my Posts.

 

Setting aside your less than courteous observations of all my Posts, the one common Thread is that you have somehow interpreted my Posts as completely PCGS supportive and completely NGC negative. You have illogically come to the conclusion that I am a PCGS Troll (you don't know which one yet-which implies you are working on finding out), my user name is a troll name, and I am a "fanboy" which I assume means a PCGS only supporter and NGC hater. I note the use of "fanboy" twice. You conclude that I think Mr. Jones means to harm.

 

You miss the point of my Posts entirely. Your conclusions are wrong.

 

I also note that there were 2 replies to a Post by Mr. Woody, in re. to Guru.

One was mine, one was yours. Your Post describes Guru as a tough guy clown. My Post is a very different description of Guru.

 

Is it possible that this is the reason for your ire?

 

Is it possible that your interpret my Posts as supportive of the fair play doctrine that Mr Feld has attempted to convey by his Posts, and this support of Mr. Feld offends you?

 

Lastly, a very easy search will assist you in discovering the story behind the user name, which was explained in depth here. It is also easily searched by availing yourself of the name change request function.

 

But, let me save you the trouble.

 

My name is John Curlis.

 

see how logic works?

 

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I missed the part where Bochiman was appointed as the voice of PCGS.

 

What I observed in that thread was a new poster showing off the results of his submission, accurately noting they were graded by NGC. He wasn't in any way "promoting" NGC, he wasn't in any way in violation of PCGS stated "undemocratic rules" for their chat board.

 

Bochiman and others went out of their way to bury in the most unwelcoming way, a poster who was doing exactly what a US coins forum is suppose to do. Spark discussion about US coins.

 

They have a PM feature where Bochiman could have privately contacted the poster to express his displeasure with the post, but doing so would deprive Bochiman of his self appointed role of decider of right and wrong.

 

Let me tell you right from wrong, taking a new poster out to be shot for posting something that rubs you the wrong way is a sure way to run off an otherwise positive contributor. THAT deprives everyone else of the potential to learn something new from the poster.

 

Golden Corral needs a policeman at their salad bar. I think I know who's up to the task.

 

You obviously have a chip on your shoulder and no issue doing what you accuse me of doing.

 

Last time I looked, there is a pm function here as well.... let me see if I missed one from you, hard times, or bobby..... nope. Checked, and I didn't get one from you guys.

 

I don't believe I was bullying the op there but some of you here go out of the way to bully people who post in a way you don't agree with. Maybe it makes you feel good to be so hypocritical?

 

So much for open mindedness over here, right Mr golden corral policeman? You most certainly are doing your best to prove you are up to the task

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So, I "drink the kool aid" because I try to have some class?

The thread wasn't about anything to do with PCGS so I didn't think it was appropriate.

 

I don't think it is appropriate if someone comes HERE and posts their PCGS submissions either...without any context of why it should be there.

 

Unlike you, hard times, and obviously some others, I guess I am not free to have, and voice an opinion, right?

 

Funny how you, and a few others, like to run over here with threads about posts/threads on the PCGS forums. Nothing better to do than try to stir up controversy?

 

When I am posting on the NGC boards, I try to stay germane to NGC coins/items/or coins in general, regardless of the holder. I don't try to come over here and bash NGC and state how great PCGS, or any other service is. I have coins in NGC and I have some VERY nice coins that are, or were, in NGC holders.

I do not have a membership with NGC for submission privileges, which has hampered me a couple of times, but that is my choice as to what I am comfortable paying for (memberships/submissions) so I am not, and will not, complain about that.

 

I do appreciate how important you must think I am for you to run over here and start a thread about my feelings and for you to interpret it the way you do. I, personally, don't think I am thread worthy, so thank you for thinking I am.

 

Btw....years ago, I remember people on the PCGS boards running over there with links to threads here, but that has largely stopped....maybe those folks were banned over there and are here now anyway?????

 

My point in that thread, and my personal viewpoint as an individual, is that I will respect the company of the resources I am using. Others may not feel that way and feel that anywhere they are is a playground for them to do what they will. I am not a mod either place, so I won't say what someone CAN or CANNOT do in that regard. I CAN post that I don't think it is cool.

 

Lampoon me all you want, but I will remain true to myself and my character on respecting others that deserve respect and respecting companies that let me use their resources to learn and share in numismatics with others.

 

Bochi you are welcome to have any opinion you wish and feel free to provide it. That is what NGC and PCGS boards are for. However, others can disagree with your opinion, and others like me, can suggest your opinion is drinkin' the PCGS kool-aid. It is all free speech and all okay.

 

Interestingly enough, many on the PCGS boards raised issue to your opinion against the enthusiastic poster who posted his latest grading results as the OP in that thread. Good to see that not all members of those boards are drinkin' the kool-aid. Must be the folks that appreciate a fine wine instead. :roflmao:

 

Happy Holidays, HT

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Wait a min...... Guru is Bochiman??? Unreal!!! And for what its worth to anybody here I happened to like Mark Feld. He likes to any devil advocate a lot but that's his choice. He was as fair of a dealer I have ever seen and miss looking at his inventory after every big show! I'll always remember the time I bought a coin from him that wasn't cheap and he sent me a check later because he charged me more than he wanted to. Stand up guy there!

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I haven't attacked you in this thread, and I am not going to do so now. But I am curious as to the basis of your comments. What exactly is so offensive about the author's post there? Last time I checked, the forum was labeled as "U.S. Coin Forum" and not a "PCGS Coin Forum." Moreover, even the rules, per Don's "Posting Rules" thread, indicate that it is a COIN forum. In part:

 

Rule 1) This is not a public forum. This is a PCGS forum paid for by PCGS and provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins. We make the rules this is not a democracy.

 

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed (emphases added).

 

So the thread was very much "directly related to US coins" and even some of the other posters found his post to be "instructive." As such, I don't see how it is rude to post something about U.S. coins when invited to do so, as per explicitly enumerated rules, by the company operating the forum.

 

Bottom line: There was nothing inherently wrong or offensive with his post, in my opinion, if it is a U.S. Coin Forum. If the forum is a PCGS fan club forum, then the title should be changed and PCGS should make clear of its intent so that members can decide whether participation is a fruitful and educational endeavor rather one full of corporate politics.

 

 

I thank you for that. I will respectfully give you my answer (though, I honestly thought I had spelled it out earlier, but it may have been missed with the large post):

 

The basis of my comment, to the OP there about the post, is that the OP was JUST about the submission results for NGC coins on a PCGS forum.

Later, some folks extrapolated comparisons that they found, and if that had been part of the OP, then I wouldn't have had an issue.

As I stated above, I thought, and still do think, the thread could be interpreted as a slap at PCGS.

 

Since you quoted 2 of the rules, I will quote one you didn't that I think could be the one that someone with power there could reasonably see....

 

"Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well. "

 

How could one NOT interpret a post ONLY about recent NGC submissions, on the PCGS boards, NOT be seen as promoting another grading company? GIVEN THE INFORMATION in that original post there?

 

Am I honestly the only one who can see where that may be interpreted and a poster banned for unintentionally doing it?

 

Thank you for responding.

 

I don't see the post as bashing or promoting either company. Rather, the OP simply:

1) Started a thread entitled: "Some pics from my NGC 50th Kennedy submission";

2) Uploaded an image of his submission results and some of the coins; and

3) included the text that "Managed to score three DPL's - 3 out of the 375 graded as such. Lucky. And 3/4's 70's!!".

 

As some of the posters ATS opined, one could argue that it was actually informative about the market for the coins, whether the NGC variants will be common or command large premiums, and might even suggest grading differences between the two services. I saw no express or implied thumbs up to NGC nor did I see it as diminishing NGC. I think the post was completely irrelevant and innocuous to PCGS. I actually interpreted it as having a celebratory tone and the OP seemed to view it as an accomplishment.

 

On another note, I stopped trying to predict bannings ATS long ago. You can be banned for the unstated rule: angering PCGS moderators or Don or otherwise posting comments that aren't approved of by them.

 

 

I assume everyone saw the OP stated he was sorry for causing an issue.

 

I also assume everyone saw the stated reasons the OP chose NGC:

 

1)He likes the NGC packaging. A point for NGC.?

 

2)It is easier to score at NGC. A point for PCGS?

 

Should the Post receive an overall score of 50/50, and no penalty? :banana:

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lol well let's even the score... I choose to send to PCGS because I get an extra point just about every time. If you would like visual evidence I can supply it. John Curlis you are a dealer correct? I'm gonna go out on a teeny tiny limb and say you submit to PCGS? Correct? If so would you like to tell us why? BTW its almost noon over here on the east coast.... must not be to busy?
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"thumbing of the nose" offender needs to go into the penalty box for the next 5 posts.

 

 

It was nice to see how these Kennedy's evolved into a sudden collectable with the DPL's the grading services suddenly added mid stream.

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I agree with Bochiman's position. It is kind of in your face to be posting NGC submissions ATS. I can see a guy being happy with a submission, but would he be posting the results if there were only three 70's in the submission and PL's instead of DPL's? I may have missed it but did the poster post his results over here? BTW, the submission results were outstanding and the guy has reason to be happy.

Gary

 

Help me understand. A poster ATS reveals NGC submissions that he is very proud of. You interpret that as some sort of an insult. As if sharing grading results from one TPG on another TPG web site is some type of a crime. You then go on to criticize the poster for not posting the same results on the collectors forum. And then "BTW, the submission results were outstanding and the guy has reason to be happy."

 

WTF

 

Carl

 

 

I'm not the poster you are asking to clarify, but since my username was put into this thread title for the debasement and enjoyment of the OP (and a few others, obviously), and I was the subject of harassment on it, I hope you don't mind my addressing you points as I see them, particularly since you asked in a nice way:

 

1) He revealed his NGC submissions (some good ones and worth a bit, good for him! Seriously), but on the PCGS boards. Nothing comparative and nothing to learn from. Not even a "look at my uber cool photo" or anything other than "here is my submission results and stacked photos" of NGC coins on the PCGS board.

I, personally, think that could be snubbing one's nose at PCGS and suggested that there may be a better place in posting it here on the NGC boards. After all, I HAVE seen whining over the years from some folks here asking why people post there and not here. Wouldn't an appropriate place to post JUST submission results from NGC "BE" on the NGC boards?

I don't see a corresponding post over here from that poster...maybe he isn't on the NGC boards or maybe he didn't know about them? Or, maybe, he sees threads like this one and doesn't want the drama if he comes here.....?

 

2) Is it a crime, no. I also think that it COULD be interpreted in a negative way by some powers that be and could result in the poster being banned there, if someone else took it as a slap in the face. Do I want that? Nope. Poster doesn't deserve that. I hope it doesn't happen.

Do I find it rude, though? Yes, I did find the way it was posted to be a potential rude slap in the face. With the follow-up post by the OP there, I am happy that it apparently was NOT done in that fashion. With a "new" poster (very few posts), I could see where some, maybe with an alt, would be that rude....this thread has definitely has me thinking that is possible that someone may do something like that.

 

3) Again, plenty of people, plenty of times in the past, have commented, in a negative fashion when some folks have posted coins/threads/pics/results on the PCGS boards....particularly when the poster is known to have a NGC handle as well....perhaps that is what is being referenced?

 

4) I also kudo the OP there and his results...what is wrong with acknowledging that, even if one disagrees with the type of post (company submission results on another company's resources/websites)?

 

Cannot others have an opinion without being attacked? If you look at my post, I don't believe I attacked that poster, but I am ridiculed for not thinking in the way that this OP here, and some others, believe I should.

I don't believe in dogpiling or groupthink....I will voice my opinions, honestly, and respect others who do so as well...hopefully without the attacks.

 

Reread my post. I quoted ghermman44 post not you. I am not debasing or harassing anyone, just questioning the reasoning behind criticizing a post ATS then stating that the grading results were outstanding. If the post ATS is wrong on several levels, what do the grading results have to do with anything?

 

I think this thread shows that some NGC forum members have far too much emotional investment in one TPG versus another.

 

I enjoy your posts and others. When I read a post that does not appear to be logical or I don't follow the reasoning, I will voice my opinion.

 

Carl

 

 

OK, let me clarify a few things:

 

1) I stand by my original post.

2) My previous post is based on how I see this issue and is only my opinion.

3) I appreciate great coins no matter who owns them, or whatever plastic they reside in. I identify with the original poster ATS being proud of their coins because I am proud of mine and I display my coins on the boards whenever I have the occasion.

 

That said let me point out a few other things:

 

1) While I agree with Bochiman's position, I would not have responded in the thread ATS.

2) My post here is more a response to the accusation that Bochiman is in some way a Kool Aid drinker. In fact I personally take more offense at this than a person posting a NGC submission on a PCGS forum.

3) The thread ATS is MORE about US coins than the thread over here.

4) I have a personal preference towards NGC for a lot of reasons that I won't elaborate on in this thread. Likewise, others have a preference towards PCGS. Does this mean that we are all Kool Aid drinkers?

 

Finally, I find it interesting that someone mentioned kissing David Hall's butt at a PCGS luncheon. I have personally attended two such luncheons as the guest of another collector. The food was good and more than a few times, I had to bite my lip to keep my mouth shut because after all the luncheon was paid for and about PCGS. The part about the luncheon I enjoyed the most was the handing out of the awards.

 

$ilverHawk, I had the opportunity to peruse your Bust-Half collection and let me congratulate you on assembling such a fine collection of great coins. Furthermore, they are excellently presented with outstanding photographs. Therefore, like me I'm sure you appreciate great collections in whatever holders they reside.

 

Interestingly, one of the awards presented at the luncheon was for a nearly complete Overton collection of Bust-Halves. I have also perused that collection and its a collection that any collector of any series of US coins would drool over.

 

So in PCGS coins on an NGC forum fashion, I'm posting a link to that set which to me is ALL about the coins.

Gary

 

http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/Publishedset.aspx?s=6580

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lol well let's even the score... I choose to send to PCGS because I get an extra point just about every time. If you would like visual evidence I can supply it. John Curlis you are a dealer correct? I'm gonna go out on a teeny tiny limb and say you submit to PCGS? Correct? If so would you like to tell us why? BTW its almost noon over here on the east coast.... must not be to busy?

 

You comprehended the Post inaccurately, again.

 

Your facts are inaccurate, again.

 

Adding childish belittling comments in an attempt to discredit does not add to your comprehension level or intelligence level or interpretation level. It diminishes it.

 

It does assist in supporting my thoughts concerning the reasons for your continuous attempts at elementary school humor.

 

On the "facts" concerning me personally, I am sorry to disappoint you.

 

In the spirit of helping you find a better method of communication, I will answer the 5 questions you posed:

 

1) Dealer? In a passing, hobby enjoying way, from time to time. More of a collector friendly table when I do attend a Coin Show...rare.... as opposed to lifestyle.

 

2) Teeny Tiny limb assumption...submit to PCGS? No. Not in 8 years. The teeny tiny size description of your limb is correct, and before an erroneous assumption is made, I am not proposing a double meaning that could be taken the wrong way.

 

3)Correct? (asked in concert w/#2 above). See # 2 answer.

 

4) If so, tell us why? See answer to #2 and #3 above. No answer possible.

 

5) ...noon on the east coast...must not be busy? Not really. Retirement allows me to enjoy family, and personal pursuits that I enjoy. One of the pursuits I enjoy is visiting here, even at those times that I find myself having to answer inaccuracies about me or inaccurate interpretations of my Posts. I don't mind doing so, although it is somewhat tedious when the inaccuracies are muttered by discourteous persons with a comprehension issue and a need to belittle others. But, these types of people are most in need of courteous replies, such as in the present exchange.

 

I trust I have answered all that you asked.

 

 

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Rule 1) This is not a public forum. This is a PCGS forum paid for by PCGS and provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins. We make the rules this is not a democracy.

 

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed (emphases added).

 

The days of PCGS doing this might be coming to an end anyway. More and more courts are starting to recognize free speech rights in blog, forums, Twitter and Facebook... Just because its private property doesnt mean the owner of the private property gets to shut down speech on their property, even speech they dont like.

 

There are cases that find even in a commercial setting such as a shopping center - if that shopping center has certain aspects that make it a "town square" they just cant stop protests or protestors from assembling and speaking their minds. Especially in California where PCGS is located...

 

http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=914899

 

In Pruneyard, a local shopping center in Campbell prohibited a group of high school students from soliciting opposition to a United Nations resolution against Zionism. The California Supreme Court held that the mall could not prohibit the students' efforts even though their free speech activity was unrelated to the business of the shopping mall. The court compared the public areas of shopping malls to the streets and sidewalks of the central business districts of cities, which have "immemorially been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens and discussing public questions." - See more at: http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=914899#sthash.Bt5jhmYl.dpuf

 

This is a discussion about how FB may be considered a town square.

 

http://www.insidecounsel.com/2013/09/20/circuit-court-likes-free-speech

 

Eventually once the courts catch up with the Internet and how Americans now live it is more than likely comments and posts on blogs, forums, FB and Twitter will all receive some sort of protection - if they are free.

 

At some point, I would imagine that to keep PCGS forums, PCGS only - it would require a paid membership to regulate speech. If you want all of the traffic and commerce ($$$) that a free message board brings, you sometimes have to take the good with the bad. And that means you have to tolerant of views you might not be comfortable with.

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I assume everyone saw the OP stated he was sorry for causing an issue.

 

I also assume everyone saw the stated reasons the OP chose NGC:

 

1)He likes the NGC packaging. A point for NGC.?

 

2)It is easier to score at NGC. A point for PCGS?

 

Should the Post receive an overall score of 50/50, and no penalty? :banana:

 

The poster never said that in his original post of contention. Those comments were made well after the fact and after he had received the criticism, so I don't think it changes the gravamen of HT's post here. Moreover, I think the subsequent post must also be viewed in context, which was eliminate claims of negative motivations in posting it.

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I assume everyone saw the OP stated he was sorry for causing an issue.

 

I also assume everyone saw the stated reasons the OP chose NGC:

 

1)He likes the NGC packaging. A point for NGC.?

 

2)It is easier to score at NGC. A point for PCGS?

 

Should the Post receive an overall score of 50/50, and no penalty? :banana:

 

The poster never said that in his original post of contention. Those comments were made well after the fact and after he had received the criticism, so I don't think it changes the gravamen of HT's post here. Moreover, I think the subsequent post must also be viewed in context, which was eliminate claims of negative motivations in posting it.

 

 

Humor hat.....break the tension hat....missing.

 

Not every Post by every person is a my army vs. your army Post.

 

Your interpretation is fine, logical, and possible as to intent.

 

You simply misread my intent.

No harm no foul.

 

But, since we are discussing words and intention and interpretation, I wouldn't label the the Post as you have..... "his original post of contention". I don't think you mean to word the description of the Post that way, but it is a good example of how we all interpret differently. If the subsequent Posts by the OP must be made in context, then possibly every Post that followed the OP should be taken in context...meaning that the follow ons were interpreting intent incorrectly to begin with.

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Rule 1) This is not a public forum. This is a PCGS forum paid for by PCGS and provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins. We make the rules this is not a democracy.

 

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed (emphases added).

 

The days of PCGS doing this might be coming to an end anyway. More and more courts are starting to recognize free speech rights in blog, forums, Twitter and Facebook... Just because its private property doesnt mean the owner of the private property gets to shut down speech on their property, even speech they dont like.

 

There are cases that find even in a commercial setting such as a shopping center - if that shopping center has certain aspects that make it a "town square" they just cant stop protests or protestors from assembling and speaking their minds. Especially in California where PCGS is located...

 

http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=914899

 

In Pruneyard, a local shopping center in Campbell prohibited a group of high school students from soliciting opposition to a United Nations resolution against Zionism. The California Supreme Court held that the mall could not prohibit the students' efforts even though their free speech activity was unrelated to the business of the shopping mall. The court compared the public areas of shopping malls to the streets and sidewalks of the central business districts of cities, which have "immemorially been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens and discussing public questions." - See more at: http://www.callawyer.com/Clstory.cfm?eid=914899#sthash.Bt5jhmYl.dpuf

 

This is a discussion about how FB may be considered a town square.

 

http://www.insidecounsel.com/2013/09/20/circuit-court-likes-free-speech

 

Eventually once the courts catch up with the Internet and how Americans now live it is more than likely comments and posts on blogs, forums, FB and Twitter will all receive some sort of protection - if they are free.

 

At some point, I would imagine that to keep PCGS forums, PCGS only - it would require a paid membership to regulate speech. If you want all of the traffic and commerce ($$$) that a free message board brings, you sometimes have to take the good with the bad. And that means you have to tolerant of views you might not be comfortable with.

 

That's very interesting, but I am sure that the cases you are referencing are based on very specific fact patterns that likely don't apply to PCGS. I haven't read through the posted link, but if the case is relying on older federal case law, I think it is arguable that such case law was overruled, at least sub silentio, by subsequent U.S. Supreme Court cases which recognize that the First Amendment is meant to apply to federal government actors (and by incorporation state actors) and not private actors. Now if the decision you speak of is an application of the California state constitution on independent state grounds, then that is a very different story.

 

In any event, thanks for posting the interesting aside.

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Bochi you are welcome to have any opinion you wish and feel free to provide it. That is what NGC and PCGS boards are for. However, others can disagree with your opinion, and others like me, can suggest your opinion is drinkin' the PCGS kool-aid. It is all free speech and all okay.

 

Interestingly enough, many on the PCGS boards raised issue to your opinion against the enthusiastic poster who posted his latest grading results as the OP in that thread. Good to see that not all members of those boards are drinkin' the kool-aid. Must be the folks that appreciate a fine wine instead. :roflmao:

 

Happy Holidays, HT

 

 

Thank you for recognizing that I can have an opinion as well, and provide it. Of course, it is ok to attack and belittle me for it, right?

I don't mind people disagreeing. I find the s*** stirring, with posted names, to be out of bounds in the realm of civility, but again, I guess that is ok for some to do, right?

The whole hiding behind "free speech" is funny. There is free speech, and I support it. Hell, I joined the military to defend free speech. There is also what the hatred spewing, the bullying, the bad things that people hide behind "free speech"

 

I'll stand behind how I stated my opinion in the PCGS thread. I would never hold my head up with the way the original post was here (the stirring of the pot, the pointed fingers, etc) and try to call it "free speech, that is all"

 

The whole "drinking the kool aid" has always been a derogatory remark since Jonestown. I, myself, don't use the phrase because of that. I know others do, and I find the comments very insensitive, even if not used directly meaning me.

 

I will also state that, in the context used, it was not only in poor taste, but inaccurate, but, hey, why let accuracy ruin a perfectly good inflaming thread, right?

If you paid any attention to my posts over the years, you would see I try to keep grading companies out of most of my posts and keep them about the actual coins. In my posts, I also show some of my NGC graded coins I am proud of.

 

But, again, go ahead with the laughing, the attacking, the inflaming. Hypocrisy is obviously a good thing...after all, one has "free speech", right?

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I agree with Bochiman's position. It is kind of in your face to be posting NGC submissions ATS. I can see a guy being happy with a submission, but would he be posting the results if there were only three 70's in the submission and PL's instead of DPL's? I may have missed it but did the poster post his results over here? BTW, the submission results were outstanding and the guy has reason to be happy.

Gary

 

Help me understand. A poster ATS reveals NGC submissions that he is very proud of. You interpret that as some sort of an insult. As if sharing grading results from one TPG on another TPG web site is some type of a crime. You then go on to criticize the poster for not posting the same results on the collectors forum. And then "BTW, the submission results were outstanding and the guy has reason to be happy."

 

WTF

 

Carl

 

 

I'm not the poster you are asking to clarify, but since my username was put into this thread title for the debasement and enjoyment of the OP (and a few others, obviously), and I was the subject of harassment on it, I hope you don't mind my addressing you points as I see them, particularly since you asked in a nice way:

 

1) He revealed his NGC submissions (some good ones and worth a bit, good for him! Seriously), but on the PCGS boards. Nothing comparative and nothing to learn from. Not even a "look at my uber cool photo" or anything other than "here is my submission results and stacked photos" of NGC coins on the PCGS board.

I, personally, think that could be snubbing one's nose at PCGS and suggested that there may be a better place in posting it here on the NGC boards. After all, I HAVE seen whining over the years from some folks here asking why people post there and not here. Wouldn't an appropriate place to post JUST submission results from NGC "BE" on the NGC boards?

I don't see a corresponding post over here from that poster...maybe he isn't on the NGC boards or maybe he didn't know about them? Or, maybe, he sees threads like this one and doesn't want the drama if he comes here.....?

 

2) Is it a crime, no. I also think that it COULD be interpreted in a negative way by some powers that be and could result in the poster being banned there, if someone else took it as a slap in the face. Do I want that? Nope. Poster doesn't deserve that. I hope it doesn't happen.

Do I find it rude, though? Yes, I did find the way it was posted to be a potential rude slap in the face. With the follow-up post by the OP there, I am happy that it apparently was NOT done in that fashion. With a "new" poster (very few posts), I could see where some, maybe with an alt, would be that rude....this thread has definitely has me thinking that is possible that someone may do something like that.

 

3) Again, plenty of people, plenty of times in the past, have commented, in a negative fashion when some folks have posted coins/threads/pics/results on the PCGS boards....particularly when the poster is known to have a NGC handle as well....perhaps that is what is being referenced?

 

4) I also kudo the OP there and his results...what is wrong with acknowledging that, even if one disagrees with the type of post (company submission results on another company's resources/websites)?

 

Cannot others have an opinion without being attacked? If you look at my post, I don't believe I attacked that poster, but I am ridiculed for not thinking in the way that this OP here, and some others, believe I should.

I don't believe in dogpiling or groupthink....I will voice my opinions, honestly, and respect others who do so as well...hopefully without the attacks.

 

Reread my post. I quoted ghermman44 post not you. I am not debasing or harassing anyone, just questioning the reasoning behind criticizing a post ATS then stating that the grading results were outstanding. If the post ATS is wrong on several levels, what do the grading results have to do with anything?

 

I think this thread shows that some NGC forum members have far too much emotional investment in one TPG versus another.

 

I enjoy your posts and others. When I read a post that does not appear to be logical or I don't follow the reasoning, I will voice my opinion.

 

Carl

 

 

OK, let me clarify a few things:

 

1) I stand by my original post.

2) My previous post is based on how I see this issue and is only my opinion.

3) I appreciate great coins no matter who owns them, or whatever plastic they reside in. I identify with the original poster ATS being proud of their coins because I am proud of mine and I display my coins on the boards whenever I have the occasion.

 

That said let me point out a few other things:

 

1) While I agree with Bochiman's position, I would not have responded in the thread ATS.

2) My post here is more a response to the accusation that Bochiman is in some way a Kool Aid drinker. In fact I personally take more offense at this than a person posting a NGC submission on a PCGS forum.

3) The thread ATS is MORE about US coins than the thread over here.

4) I have a personal preference towards NGC for a lot of reasons that I won't elaborate on in this thread. Likewise, others have a preference towards PCGS. Does this mean that we are all Kool Aid drinkers?

 

Finally, I find it interesting that someone mentioned kissing David Hall's butt at a PCGS luncheon. I have personally attended two such luncheons as the guest of another collector. The food was good and more than a few times, I had to bite my lip to keep my mouth shut because after all the luncheon was paid for and about PCGS. The part about the luncheon I enjoyed the most was the handing out of the awards.

 

$ilverHawk, I had the opportunity to peruse your Bust-Half collection and let me congratulate you on assembling such a fine collection of great coins. Furthermore, they are excellently presented with outstanding photographs. Therefore, like me I'm sure you appreciate great collections in whatever holders they reside.

 

Interestingly, one of the awards presented at the luncheon was for a nearly complete Overton collection of Bust-Halves. I have also perused that collection and its a collection that any collector of any series of US coins would drool over.

 

So in PCGS coins on an NGC forum fashion, I'm posting a link to that set which to me is ALL about the coins.

Gary

 

http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/Publishedset.aspx?s=6580

 

Gary,

 

I get your points. Thanks for posting a link to the Dale Friend Bust-Halves. I believe that collection has also won PCGS awards in the past. I've looked at that collection many times. And yes it is ALL about the coins.

 

Thanks for the complement on my CBH's. The credits for photography and presentation go to Coindude (Sam).

 

Carl

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Bochi you are welcome to have any opinion you wish and feel free to provide it. That is what NGC and PCGS boards are for. However, others can disagree with your opinion, and others like me, can suggest your opinion is drinkin' the PCGS kool-aid. It is all free speech and all okay.

 

Interestingly enough, many on the PCGS boards raised issue to your opinion against the enthusiastic poster who posted his latest grading results as the OP in that thread. Good to see that not all members of those boards are drinkin' the kool-aid. Must be the folks that appreciate a fine wine instead. :roflmao:

 

Happy Holidays, HT

 

 

Thank you for recognizing that I can have an opinion as well, and provide it. Of course, it is ok to attack and belittle me for it, right?

I don't mind people disagreeing. I find the s*** stirring, with posted names, to be out of bounds in the realm of civility, but again, I guess that is ok for some to do, right?

The whole hiding behind "free speech" is funny. There is free speech, and I support it. Hell, I joined the military to defend free speech. There is also what the hatred spewing, the bullying, the bad things that people hide behind "free speech"

 

I'll stand behind how I stated my opinion in the PCGS thread. I would never hold my head up with the way the original post was here (the stirring of the pot, the pointed fingers, etc) and try to call it "free speech, that is all"

 

The whole "drinking the kool aid" has always been a derogatory remark since Jonestown. I, myself, don't use the phrase because of that. I know others do, and I find the comments very insensitive, even if not used directly meaning me.

 

I think it can be said that 'drinking the kool-aid' is a humorous/ironic way of stating the obvious, that some are so bought into the PCGS label that they run around with blinders on. I think you are over interpreting if you associate it with Jonestown. There is certainly a broader definition not associated with anything evil, and that is how folks are using it with respect to PCGS followers IMO. Here is the definition:

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drinking+the+kool+aid

 

Man O'Man people are so sensitive on the boards..........

 

Really, I think what everyone has stated on the other side of this issue is how you layed into an enthusiastic collector simply because he/she posted some NGC grading results on PCGS boards. I think alot of folks think that is way over the top. Opens up some interesting discussion which is why I started this thread.

 

Best, HT

 

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HT - the phrase "drinking the kool-aid" is most definitely a reference to Jonestown. The phrase means "to blindly follow without questioning." It has become so common a phrase that it has lost its strongly negative connotation.

 

Urban Dictionary is one of the most ridiculously unreliable websites on the Internet.

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Urban Dictionary is one of the most ridiculously unreliable websites on the Internet.

 

Actually I have had US Trademark Office Examining Attorneys reference it in their responses. Its not that bad.

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Bochiman's post ATS seemed fairly innocuous to me actually. Hardly "kool-aid" IMO.

 

The issue of posting NGC grades ATS (or vice versa) to me depends on what is being presented in the thread. IF it's just to show your grade, to me, it's a little bit inappropriate to show off some submission. Frankly, I think collectors really should emphasize the coins more rather than showing off the grade. But showing off some new purchase regardless of who graded it should be what the forums are about, no? When I do so I often omit the grade altogether JUST to make the point that it's the coin itself that matters...at least to me.

 

Anywho, just my two cents.

 

jom

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These are public forums. I think that if people are limited to their right to speech on them, then the forum owners should make them a paid forum. NGC proves to be very tolerant in every aspect of their forum. I respect that greatly and is why the majority of my posting is done here. If people have to constantly be aware of how they word something or show & tell their coins, it takes a lot away from the information aspect of it. I don't like having to be on the defensive all the time when my only goal is to gain, receive, or give knowledge. This is why I participate.

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These are public forums. I think that if people are limited to their right to speech on them, then the forum owners should make them a paid forum. NGC proves to be very tolerant in every aspect of their forum. I respect that greatly and is why the majority of my posting is done here. If people have to constantly be aware of how they word something or show & tell their coins, it takes a lot away from the information aspect of it. I don't like having to be on the defensive all the time when my only goal is to gain, receive, or give knowledge. This is why I participate.

 

Quoted for truth and +1

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