The Toned Peace in Legend-Morphy Auction

[Tradedollarnut]

Some of you bigger players need to realize that the majority of collectors dont have the luxury to get on a plane and go see the coins they are considering in hand. Nor do many of the coins even warrant that if possible(certainly not mine) So pictures is all we have. And many people have gotten good enough at doing so not only to not get stung but to also profit from it. That cannot be ignored.

 

You remember your successes and ignore your failures. You are nowhere near as good at it as you think you are. No one can grade an unc coin accurately without seeing the luster. You're just guessing. The worst thing is you won't recognize that's what you're doing til you really get burned.

[mumu]

Some of you bigger players need to realize that the majority of collectors dont have the luxury to get on a plane and go see the coins they are considering in hand. Nor do many of the coins even warrant that if possible(certainly not mine) So pictures is all we have. And many people have gotten good enough at doing so not only to not get stung but to also profit from it. That cannot be ignored.

 

You remember your successes and ignore your failures. You are nowhere near as good at it as you think you are. No one can grade an unc coin accurately without seeing the luster. You're just guessing. The worst thing is you won't recognize that's what you're doing til you really get burned.

 

You are forgetting that 99% of the hobby is coins under 1000$.

Are you suggesting people get on a plane from NJ to Utah and knock on an ebay sellers door and ask too see the 300$ Peace dollar they might bid on if they agree with the grade?

[Tradedollarnut]

No - I'm suggesting they recognize their limitations before going nuts over an image on a chatroom. Those that have assigned grades and stickers to this coin have seen multiples of the numbers of coins that I have seen and I have seen multiples of the number of coins you have seen. If you haven't actually held the coins in your hands and decided a liner based upon positives and negatives, you honestly haven't earned the right to Monday Morning quarterback. JMHO

[gmarguli]

Uhmmm - yes he is. He's biased by the fact the grading history is known but he is still assessing off an image. Note that it doesn't bother him that his own crackout blue ribbon jobs go up.....

 

Nope, doesn't bother me one bit that my crackouts and regrades upgrade. Even the ones that I have to try numerous times. I'll put my money and talents on the line and am happy when I am rewarded. The question being debated here is if the coin is a high end MS65 per CAC standards and if so, why didn't they award the gold bean the first time? The 'it's not a sure fire upgrade' reason doesn't really hold water. The coin should be so solid in the MS65 slab to get the bean that it should be a practical no brainer to be an upgrade/gold bean when in an MS64 slab.

 

As for the coin grade based off the image alone, if I didn't know the grade beforehand, I'd have said it appears to be an OK MS64. The hits on the chin, cheek, neck (numerous hits), behind the head, in front of the forehead before the L in Liberty and the black spots (carbon? deep toning?) in the hair, in the B of Liberty, and below the D of God all would have said MS64 to me. Admittedly, in person I might view it differently.

[Tradedollarnut]

CAC stickers solid for the grade coins. A coins and B coins. A 65 B coin in a 64+ holder just isn't going to get a gold sticker. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that.

 

As far as what the grade is, i'll take PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

[gmarguli]

As far as what the grade is, i'll take Duckor and PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

 

You'll need to be a little more specific. Which of the 7 PCGS opinions are you going to take? The one that agrees with you or the six that don't?

 

[mumu]

Is there a story behind why this was his last coin?

[EVillageProwler]

Some of you bigger players need to realize that the majority of collectors dont have the luxury to get on a plane and go see the coins they are considering in hand. Nor do many of the coins even warrant that if possible(certainly not mine) So pictures is all we have. And many people have gotten good enough at doing so not only to not get stung but to also profit from it. That cannot be ignored.

 

You remember your successes and ignore your failures. You are nowhere near as good at it as you think you are. No one can grade an unc coin accurately without seeing the luster. You're just guessing. The worst thing is you won't recognize that's what you're doing til you really get burned.

 

You are forgetting that 99% of the hobby is coins under 1000$.

Are you suggesting people get on a plane from NJ to Utah and knock on an ebay sellers door and ask too see the 300$ Peace dollar they might bid on if they agree with the grade?

 

Mumu,

 

Just because someone is at a financial/competitive disadvantage doesn't mean that grading off an image is any more or less appropriate. They are two different issues.

 

If you don't believe that grading off an image puts you at a competitive disadvantage (too), then just ask the pot-stirrer. He'll tell you that the only reason he goes off the images is because he is playing the odds. He feels that he has enough experience, factoring in as much as he can about an online lot listing, that the odds are in his favor to take a shot rather than get an in-hand assessment.

 

As for his AU58 -> MS63 score, he knows he got lucky. He bought it at 58 money, so it's not like he was even taking a chance. That comment from him is just noise, which surprises me since he usually tries to stay on point.

 

EVP

[mkman123]

Whose bidding on this coin?

[TonerGuy]

IMHO It has a nice strike for a SF Peace $ but too many hits to be a MS65 CAC coin. Sorry I have personally seen and owned several 23-S toned Peace $ with less marks that were graded MS64.

 

Strike means NOTHING. Hits? I have always said that the biggest grading mistake collectors make is focusing too much on hits and ignoring the overall fabric of a coin. Other toned peace dollars? This is the final coin saved by a world class collector - you have never seen another like it.

 

I didnt say strike means NOTHING. Thats probably why its a + coin. Its a nice strike but not hammered. As for never seeing another like it - you assume too much. I have specialized in toned Peace $ for more then a decade. I have probably seen more than a few in my time.

 

And all this is discussion is moot anyway... someone has already agreed to pay an exorbitant amount for what is a colorful MS64+ coin IMHO. Take an average of the grades - its a MS64+ - we can argue all we want but thats not at dispute.

 

Congrats to the winners in this thread - Legend, TDN, the consignor (at least he got his money back) and anyone that likes toned Peace $ !

[MarkFeld]

Greg, I viewed the coin in person and think it deserved the MS65 grade. Anyone else who has viewed it is free to disagree. And of course, some people will have strong opinions, without having seen it in hand.

 

So Mark, you would consider this an A or B coin for the MS65 grade? This is a coin you would tell your clients that not only is this a solid MS65 coin, but it is a nice, high end MS65?

 

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

I think it is a B coin, which to me, is mid range, not high end. I have no idea why it took the number of times it did to get into its current holder.

[nk1nk]

CAC stickers solid for the grade coins. A coins and B coins. A 65 B coin in a 64+ holder just isn't going to get a gold sticker. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that.

 

This is another issue I have with CAC, nowhere on their website do they explain what a gold sticker represents, but to me the scenario you lay out should warrant a gold sticker, it's undergraded by a point. This is a case where CAC knows the importance of the slab grade, they wouldn't take the financial burden of a gold sticker on a 64 coin, it had to make it into a 65 slab before CAC would give it's blessing as a solid 65. The tpg grade is key that's why it was submitted at least 7 times. If this was a common date morgan then im sure it would have been given the gold bean, which is another problem with CAC, the value of a coin should not be a consideration of CACs evaluation of a coins technical grading but I think this coin shows that it is, which for me is a problem when a company sets the market on PQ coins and actively buys back it's stickered coins and it green beans an under graded coin... ......I wonder how many of the coins they buy get "reviewed" again?

 

Nick

[MarkFeld]

CAC stickers solid for the grade coins. A coins and B coins. A 65 B coin in a 64+ holder just isn't going to get a gold sticker. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that.

 

This is another issue I have with CAC, nowhere on their website do they explain what a gold sticker represents, but to me the scenario you lay out should warrant a gold sticker, it's undergraded by a point. This is a case where CAC knows the importance of the slab grade, they wouldn't take the financial burden of a gold sticker on a 64 coin, it had to make it into a 65 slab before CAC would give it's blessing as a solid 65. The tpg grade is key that's why it was submitted at least 7 times. If this was a common date morgan then im sure it would have been given the gold bean, which is another problem with CAC, the value of a coin should not be a consideration of CACs evaluation of a coins technical grading but I think this coin shows that it is, which for me is a problem when a company sets the market on PQ coins and actively buys back it's stickered coins and it green beans an under graded coin... ......I wonder how many of the coins they buy get "reviewed" again?

 

Nick

 

Are you accusing CAC of buying green stickered coins and then reviewing their own coins for gold bean upgrades? It sure sounds that way.

 

I just contacted CAC and was told that daily, they review coins they have purchased and have never even considered changing a green sticker coin to a gold one. But they have, on occasion, removed the green sticker and sold at a non CAC price, often resulting in a loss.

 

I wonder how many reckless comments you are going to make, without regard for facts or consequences?

 

I'm still waiting for you to back up your previous post. Though I expect that you will never be able to do so, even if you bother to try.

[EVillageProwler]

There is a thread on this site, in world coin forum, that talks about content versus quality.

 

This particular thread has content but very little quality.

 

EVP

[nk1nk]

CAC stickers solid for the grade coins. A coins and B coins. A 65 B coin in a 64+ holder just isn't going to get a gold sticker. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that.

 

This is another issue I have with CAC, nowhere on their website do they explain what a gold sticker represents, but to me the scenario you lay out should warrant a gold sticker, it's undergraded by a point. This is a case where CAC knows the importance of the slab grade, they wouldn't take the financial burden of a gold sticker on a 64 coin, it had to make it into a 65 slab before CAC would give it's blessing as a solid 65. The tpg grade is key that's why it was submitted at least 7 times. If this was a common date morgan then im sure it would have been given the gold bean, which is another problem with CAC, the value of a coin should not be a consideration of CACs evaluation of a coins technical grading but I think this coin shows that it is, which for me is a problem when a company sets the market on PQ coins and actively buys back it's stickered coins and it green beans an under graded coin... ......I wonder how many of the coins they buy get "reviewed" again?

 

Nick

 

Are you accusing CAC of buying green stickered coins and then reviewing their own coins for gold bean upgrades? It sure sounds that way.

 

I just contacted CAC and was told that daily, they review coins they have purchased and have never even considered changing a green sticker coin to a gold one. But they have, on occasion, removed the green sticker and sold at a non CAC price, often resulting in a loss.

 

I wonder how many reckless comments you are going to make, without regard for facts or consequences?

 

I'm still waiting for you to back up your previous post. Though I expect that you will never be able to do so, even if you bother to try.

 

Accusing? Absolutely not, given the situation of this coin receiving green at 64 and 65 not justify one to wonder and thanks for calling CAC, I am relieved and set at ease that they told you they have never upgraded a bought coin from green to gold.

 

As for my original post, yes complete exaggeration. Intended exaggeration in fact.

 

Nick

 

[dimefreak]

 

As far as what the grade is, i'll take Duckor and PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

 

Laura is part of PCGS.... lets not get it twisted (thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

 

As far as what the grade is, i'll take Duckor and PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

 

Laura is part of PCGS.... lets not get it twisted (thumbs u

 

Laura is not part of PCGS (even if, by chance, you wrote that because she is listed on their board of experts, since she assists with prices of rarities for Coin Facts). Her company certainly is a separate entity and clearly, she has her own opinions, which often differ from those of PCGS.

 

Let's not get it twisted.

[jom]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

[Tradedollarnut]

 

As far as what the grade is, i'll take Duckor and PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

 

Laura is part of PCGS.... lets not get it twisted (thumbs u

 

Good Lord - just where do people come up with these things.

[MarkFeld]

 

As far as what the grade is, i'll take Duckor and PCGS and Sperber and JA's in hand opinion over your online assessment any day. Oh - and Feld too!

 

Laura is part of PCGS.... lets not get it twisted (thumbs u

 

Good Lord - just where do people come up with these things.

 

Probably from the "doozy files". That was quite preposterous, even considering the misinformation which tends to get posted from time to time.

[e1cnr]

I really like the obverse of this coin (and I don't care what grade it says or how many different stickers).

 

I am going to download it and put it in my colored coin picture collection.

[MarkFeld]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the y people AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

John, many people happen to care what grade a coin has received.

 

If, for example someone thinks the coin in question is a 64, then the price premium for its color/eye appeal Is far greater than if they think it's a 65. And therefore, it would be far more difficult to justify the price it will bring.

 

I often pass on coins which I think look great, if/when I feel that they are over-graded.

 

So get off of your "who cares" high horse.

[TonerGuy]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

Ultimately the only person is who is going to care is the winning bidder - and only when he tries (if he tries) to sell it someday. Me - I would be buried with that coin if I paid $10k+ for it and probably so will the winning bidder...

[Tradedollarnut]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

Ultimately the only person is who is going to care is the winning bidder - and only when he tries (if he tries) to sell it someday. Me - I would be buried with that coin if I paid $10k+ for it and probably so will the winning bidder...

 

Question : what is the most you have paid for a superbly toned coin?

[jom]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the y people AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

John, many people happen to care what grade a coin has received.

 

If, for example someone thinks the coin in question is a 64, then the price premium for its color/eye appeal Is far greater than if they think it's a 65. And therefore, it would be far more difficult to justify the price it will bring.

 

I often pass on coins which I think look great, if/when I feel that they are over-graded.

 

So get off of your "who cares" high horse.

 

In this case I was off-base. The fact this coin has a huge jump in price does make a difference. I had thought the coin in question was going for huge money despite the grade difference. I think I thought this was a 23P or some such. In those cases I'm not convinced the grade matters as all. It's still 10X premiums or whatever.

 

Mark, I just think the coin market is so enamored with "grade" they don't see the forest for the trees. This is why these kind of discussion get lost over petty non-sense like stickers.

 

On another note, what TDN said above about how CAC gold stickers coins is unquestionably true. In fact, I just listened to a conference call John had last week and he said EXACTLY the same thing: Gold stickers are reserved for no-brainer upgrades OFTEN meaning two grades higher than what it says on the slab. So it isn't a surprise to me at all that the Peace dollar got a green sticker in both 64 and 65 holders. Why so much "gnashing of teeth" over this is beyond me.

 

I realize the confusion on this though. Much of what CAC does seems to be mis-understood a great deal. I've fallen victim to that myself a couple of times. Too much message board noise I suppose....

 

jom

[dimefreak]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

Ultimately the only person is who is going to care is the winning bidder - and only when he tries (if he tries) to sell it someday. Me - I would be buried with that coin if I paid $10k+ for it and probably so will the winning bidder...

 

Question : what is the most you have paid for a superbly toned coin?

 

I once paid $300 for a common date morgan in MS64,,,,, thats like 4x a white one!!!!

[MarkFeld]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

Ultimately the only person is who is going to care is the winning bidder - and only when he tries (if he tries) to sell it someday. Me - I would be buried with that coin if I paid $10k+ for it and probably so will the winning bidder...

 

Question : what is the most you have paid for a superbly toned coin?

 

I once paid $300 for a common date morgan in MS64,,,,, thats like 4x a white one!!!!

 

TDN, you have just heard sarcasm from the person who stated that "Laura is part of PCGS".

[nk1nk]

I love the fact everyone continues to argue about the grade of this coin when the most important fact has been avoided....

 

The fact is (well...ok...it hasn't sold quite yet I guess) that this could will go for a LOT more than either MS64 or MS65 "money". Given the huge premium who gives a rat's arse what the grade is? The quality of the coin (based on what people have said who have actually SEEN it in hand) is obviously very high so does it matter if PCGS grades 64 or 65 or 66 or whether it has a + or a STAR or a CAC sticker? Jebus...who gives a ***t?!

 

It's really humorous that coin collectors argue over this nit-picky minutia....it's like the y people AT vs NT non-sense.

 

Whatever....

 

jom

 

John, many people happen to care what grade a coin has received.

 

If, for example someone thinks the coin in question is a 64, then the price premium for its color/eye appeal Is far greater than if they think it's a 65. And therefore, it would be far more difficult to justify the price it will bring.

 

I often pass on coins which I think look great, if/when I feel that they are over-graded.

 

So get off of your "who cares" high horse.

 

In this case I was off-base. The fact this coin has a huge jump in price does make a difference. I had thought the coin in question was going for huge money despite the grade difference. I think I thought this was a 23P or some such. In those cases I'm not convinced the grade matters as all. It's still 10X premiums or whatever.

 

Mark, I just think the coin market is so enamored with "grade" they don't see the forest for the trees. This is why these kind of discussion get lost over petty non-sense like stickers.

 

On another note, what TDN said above about how CAC gold stickers coins is unquestionably true. In fact, I just listened to a conference call John had last week and he said EXACTLY the same thing: Gold stickers are reserved for no-brainer upgrades OFTEN meaning two grades higher than what it says on the slab. So it isn't a surprise to me at all that the Peace dollar got a green sticker in both 64 and 65 holders. Why so much "gnashing of teeth" over this is beyond me.

 

I realize the confusion on this though. Much of what CAC does seems to be mis-understood a great deal. I've fallen victim to that myself a couple of times. Too much message board noise I suppose....

 

jom

 

I think the reason it is mis understood is because of CAC's website, if someone went to the source they would find ZERO info about a gold sticker. I think thats great that you listened to a conference call that describes gold sticker criteria but why not put it on your website for all to see and be informed of. Very vague information will lead to being mis understood.

 

Nick

[TonerGuy]

Question : what is the most you have paid for a superbly toned coin?

 

One, thats none of your business. Two - a better question is what's the largest premium Ive ever paid for a toned Peace $ or even have I ever been buried in a toned Peace $.

 

In the past I have paid more than 10x premiums for color and yes I have buried myself in certain toned Peace $. The market for common date 22,23,24 and 25s with great vibrant color is stronger then ever right now. But I have found that the less common date and mint-marks generally command no to maybe a 1.5x premium for color.

 

It would be nice to see the other coins in the series start to push up. Dont get me wrong I would be happy to see this coin top $12k and then sell later for $15k. While that is not an true indicator of the overall value of toned Peace $ market in general, it is still nice to see one command such bidding levels. Especially one that is of a questionable grade. That is very telling.

 

The mere fact that a collector and owner of your exquisite taste and refinement is talking about toned Peace $ makes me giddy with excitement. Ten years ago Mark use to make fun of toned Peace $ now he's even talking about them ! Progress comes slowly...

[dimefreak]

I got nothing........... Not even a 1913 $0.04999