The Toned Peace in Legend-Morphy Auction

[Tradedollarnut]

Noise, noise, noise. Stir, stir, stir. Yawn.

[Tradedollarnut]

The market will have to, since CAC clearly can't in hand as well as I can off an image

 

Fixed that for you.

[MarkFeld]

With all due respect to the torches and pitchforks, CAC has made it very clear that they will only issue a gold sticker if a coin is so clearly undergraded that it demands it. So yes, they will give a green to a coin that is solid for the next grade up ... And then a green again when it goes up. Not the first time, won't be the last.

 

Solid for the next grade up. lol With all due respect to the CAC promoters, they can all cut the BS. Based on the SEVEN grade points we know (and who knows how many more times it was graded that we don't know about), it is extremely likely that this coin is a very nice MS64. I'll go as far to say a liner MS64/MS65. Basically, an MS64 "A" coin and wholly worthy of a green bean. However, at absolute best, it is an extremely low quality MS65 - a "C" coin. The fact that CAC green beaned it at both MS64 and MS65 (when it took at least 7 tries) points to them being just as inconsistent as the TPGs.

 

I assume you'll make sure the auction description is edited to reflect the fact that this coin graded MS64 SIX of SEVEN times, yet CAC quizzically decided to award a green bean to it at both the MS64 & MS65 levels. (thumbs u

 

Greg, I viewed the coin in person and think it deserved the MS65 grade. Anyone else who has viewed it is free to disagree. And of course, some people will have strong opinions, without having seen it in hand.

[Tradedollarnut]

. And of course, some people will have strong opinions, without having seen it in hand

 

 

No truer words have been spoken....

[gmarguli]

The market will have to, since CAC clearly can't in hand as well as I can off an image

 

Fixed that for you.

 

I guess PCGS must have graded it off an image the first 6 times they said MS64. hm

 

I know you need to make damage control posts to protect your investment in this company. That's fine. If I owned part of CAC like you do, I'd be here doing the same thing. However, it is clear to everyone other than the CAC Kool-Aid drinkers and co-owners that this coin is extremely likely an MS64.8 to MS65.1 coin and CAC likely screwed up giving it the sticker in the MS65 slab.

 

 

[mumu]

As the lawyers of the board will so lawyer-ery and cliche try to make this about the coin's grade, while thinking we wont notice the deflection, the debate is now about CAC. No one is debating whether the coin is a 64 or a 65 based on pictures, but rather the fact that the green sticker went on as a 64 and a 65.

[gmarguli]

Greg, I viewed the coin in person and think it deserved the MS65 grade. Anyone else who has viewed it is free to disagree. And of course, some people will have strong opinions, without having seen it in hand.

 

So Mark, you would consider this an A or B coin for the MS65 grade? This is a coin you would tell your clients that not only is this a solid MS65 coin, but it is a nice, high end MS65?

 

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

[Tradedollarnut]

I don't own any CAC. You are mistaken, as usual.

 

As far as what is extremely likely or not, it is clear that most here are followers and you, while smart enough and most likely fully aware of what is correct, enjoy stirring the chit too much to open your eyes. 64.8 to 65.1 off an image? Incredible! Why haven't you applied for a grader position?

[coinman_23885]

Greg, I viewed the coin in person and think it deserved the MS65 grade. Anyone else who has viewed it is free to disagree. And of course, some people will have strong opinions, without having seen it in hand.

 

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

Perhaps the coin was resubmitted in the plastic instead of cracking it out; graders tend to be more cautious/ err on the conservative side when looking at a coin through plastic.

[Tradedollarnut]

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

Because they were unsure of the color? Because they hadnt gotten enough grading fees yet? Because the plus light was on that day? You really think seven times is significant? How long have you been around this hobby?

 

The only thing significant about this coin is that the pictures of the previous grade events are online. I've submitted coins for my collection at least that many times, given up on them and then bought them back in the higher holder at triple what I sold them for. Yes - stickered.

[gmarguli]

I don't own any CAC. You are mistaken, as usual.

 

As far as what is extremely likely or not, it is clear that most here are followers and you, while smart enough and most likely fully aware of what is correct, enjoy stirring the chit too much to open your eyes. 64.8 to 65.1 off an image? Incredible! Why haven't you applied for a grader position?

 

You have or had a financial interest in CAC. You posted this in the past. If you divested this financial interest in CAC, then I was mistaken in my comments. However, if you still have this financial interest in CAC and are just saying it's not technically an ownership stake, well... that'd be very politician-like of you.

 

As for grading off an image, while imprecise, it is very possible on non-proof coins to exclude grades and likely come close to what it will be in hand. Regardless of that, if this coin were so solid for the MS65 grade, care to explain why it took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get the MS65 grade?

 

As for stirring the pot, I have no problem with having an open discussion about a facet of the industry. Some people like to shoot down or be dismissive of these discussions when it doesn't suit their interests.

[gmarguli]

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

Perhaps the coin was resubmitted in the plastic instead of cracking it out; graders tend to be more cautious/ err on the conservative side when looking at a coin through plastic.

 

They remove the coin from the slab when regrading. And this past week I just had 3 of 4 coins upgrade at PCGS on a resubmission. All 3 coins are now finest knowns. One went from AU58 to MS63! I bought that coin online by grading off an image. (thumbs u

[mumu]

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

Because they were unsure of the color? Because they hadnt gotten enough grading fees yet? Because the plus light was on that day? You really think seven times is significant? How long have you been around this hobby?

 

The only thing significant about this coin is that the pictures of the previous grade events are online. I've submitted coins for my collection at least that many times, given up on them and then bought them back in the higher holder at triple what I sold them for. Yes - stickered.

 

And you think thats a good state of affairs for the hobby? Or at least us little people who's money actually still matters?(that is not being said as a bash in anyway as I see nothing wrong with being wealthy at all)

[Tradedollarnut]

As the lawyers of the board will so lawyer-ery and cliche try to make this about the coin's grade, while thinking we wont notice the deflection, the debate is now about CAC. No one is debating whether the coin is a 64 or a 65 based on pictures, but rather the fact that the green sticker went on as a 64 and a 65.

 

Happens occasionally - nothing wrong with it. The exact scenario that I described is not unique. Get over it.

[Tradedollarnut]

Care to hazard a guess as to why the coin took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get into an MS65 slab if it is not only so deserving of the MS65 grade, but it is a high quality MS65 at that?

 

Because they were unsure of the color? Because they hadnt gotten enough grading fees yet? Because the plus light was on that day? You really think seven times is significant? How long have you been around this hobby?

 

The only thing significant about this coin is that the pictures of the previous grade events are online. I've submitted coins for my collection at least that many times, given up on them and then bought them back in the higher holder at triple what I sold them for. Yes - stickered.

 

And you think thats a good state of affairs for the hobby? Or at least us little people who's money actually still matters?(that is not being said as a bash in anyway as I see nothing wrong with being wealthy at all)

 

The hobby is just fine. Chit like this has happened forever - the TPGs are inconsistent. CAC makes mistakes too(gasp) but doubt this is one of them.

[mumu]

BTW I'd like to open for debate that the "grading off an image is impossible" is a ridiculous argument. IT IS 100% possible to grade off an image. Not everyone is 80 years old and on a pentium 1 computer with a 15 inch crt monitor and not everyone takes their pictures with calculator watch. Is it possible to grade EVERY coin from ANY image? Absolutely not. Is it possible to grade many coins from the many great images some very good photographers on the forums take. Absolutely.

 

Dont believe me? Look up some posts where some of us small timers post a picture and wonder if our lowly 64 dreck might really be a 65....ALL of the same cast of characters claiming you cant grade from an image in threads like this one where the status quo whales such as CAC are challenged, suddenly have NO problem grading every single one of those coins as correctly graded 64s.

[TonerGuy]

Solid for the next grade up. lol With all due respect to the CAC promoters, they can all cut the BS. Based on the SEVEN grade points we know (and who knows how many more times it was graded that we don't know about), it is extremely likely that this coin is a very nice MS64. I'll go as far to say a liner MS64/MS65. Basically, an MS64 "A" coin and wholly worthy of a green bean. However, at absolute best, it is an extremely low quality MS65 - a "C" coin. The fact that CAC green beaned it at both MS64 and MS65 (when it took at least 7 tries) points to them being just as inconsistent as the TPGs.

 

I assume you'll make sure the auction description is edited to reflect the fact that this coin graded MS64 SIX of SEVEN times, yet CAC quizzically decided to award a green bean to it at both the MS64 & MS65 levels. (thumbs u

 

I really wish I could have seen this coin in hand at LB but it was only at the Legend booth for a relatively short time period. It wasnt there on Wednesday and was gone by Friday AM.

 

I tried to see it for myself but I was told it went back - to where I dont know but it I couldnt see it so therefore I can only go off the photos and what PCGS said about the coin seven times... IMHO It has a nice strike for a SF Peace $ but too many hits to be a MS65 CAC coin. Sorry I have personally seen and owned several 23-S toned Peace $ with less marks that were graded MS64.

 

It probably got the bump for color which minimizes the hits pointed out earlier in this thread.

 

It must be a beautiful coin, but $10,000 for probably what is a MS64+ is a huge premium for color. I am happy to see it go that high...

 

I just feel sorry for the future owner if other MS65 23-S toned Peace dollars start to come out of the wood work now that this coin is in the atmosphere.

[Tradedollarnut]

I don't own any CAC. You are mistaken, as usual.

 

As far as what is extremely likely or not, it is clear that most here are followers and you, while smart enough and most likely fully aware of what is correct, enjoy stirring the chit too much to open your eyes. 64.8 to 65.1 off an image? Incredible! Why haven't you applied for a grader position?

 

You have or had a financial interest in CAC. You posted this in the past. If you divested this financial interest in CAC, then I was mistaken in my comments. However, if you still have this financial interest in CAC and are just saying it's not technically an ownership stake, well... that'd be very politician-like of you.

 

As for grading off an image, while imprecise, it is very possible on non-proof coins to exclude grades and likely come close to what it will be in hand. Regardless of that, if this coin were so solid for the MS65 grade, care to explain why it took at least SEVEN tries at PCGS to get the MS65 grade?

 

As for stirring the pot, I have no problem with having an open discussion about a facet of the industry. Some people like to shoot down or be dismissive of these discussions when it doesn't suit their interests.

 

HAD a financial stake in CAC. Sold it several years ago. Doesn't change my respect for what JA is doing.

[coinman_23885]

BTW I'd like to open for debate that the "grading off an image is impossible" is a moot point. IT IS 100% possible to grade off an image. Not everyone is 80 years old and on a pentium 1 computer with a 15 inch crt monitor and not everyone takes their pictures with calculator watch. Is it possible to grade EVERY coin from ANY image? Absolutely not. Is it possible to grade many coins from the many great images some very good photographers on the forums take. Absolutely.

 

I think the ultimate point is that it is difficult to represent a 3D object in a 2D image and have it represent the coin in many instances. Even great photographs only show the coin at one particular angle, and hinder your ability to precisely assess the luster, etc. Hairlines can also be difficult to see and may only show at some angles, where the marks will "pop" out. These are but a few examples of why grading off of an online image with any consistency is significantly limited.

[Tradedollarnut]

BTW I'd like to open for debate that the "grading off an image is impossible" is a moot point. IT IS 100% possible to grade off an image. Not everyone is 80 years old and on a pentium 1 computer with a 15 inch crt monitor and not everyone takes their pictures with calculator watch. Is it possible to grade EVERY coin from ANY image? Absolutely not. Is it possible to grade many coins from the many great images some very good photographers on the forums take. Absolutely.

 

Dont believe me? Look up some posts where some of us small timers post a picture and wonder if our lowly 64 dreck might really be a 65....ALL of the same cast of characters claiming you cant grade from an image in threads like this one where the status quo whales such as CAC are challenged, suddenly have NO problem grading every single one of those coins as correctly graded 64s.

 

NO ONE can consistently grade an unc or proof coin off an image. Sure, occasionally people get lucky - try to do it for a living.

[mumu]

BTW I'd like to open for debate that the "grading off an image is impossible" is a moot point. IT IS 100% possible to grade off an image. Not everyone is 80 years old and on a pentium 1 computer with a 15 inch crt monitor and not everyone takes their pictures with calculator watch. Is it possible to grade EVERY coin from ANY image? Absolutely not. Is it possible to grade many coins from the many great images some very good photographers on the forums take. Absolutely.

 

Dont believe me? Look up some posts where some of us small timers post a picture and wonder if our lowly 64 dreck might really be a 65....ALL of the same cast of characters claiming you cant grade from an image in threads like this one where the status quo whales such as CAC are challenged, suddenly have NO problem grading every single one of those coins as correctly graded 64s.

 

NO ONE can consistently grade an unc or proof coin off an image. Sure, occasionally people get lucky - try to do it for a living.

 

No one is claiming that level of precise-ability...But what would be the need for coin forums at all if not for analyzing coins from images? This hobby once traded from WORDS in newspaper ads. This is leaps and bounds beyond that.

[Tradedollarnut]

No one is claiming that level of precise-ability...

 

So you think it's ok to criticize PCGS and CAC when your abilty to assess their performance is admitably imprecise? That is just silly...

[mumu]

No one is claiming that level of precise-ability...

 

So you think it's ok to criticize PCGS and CAC when your abilty to assess their performance is admitably imprecise? That is just silly...

 

1. My ability to determine whether this coin is a 64 or a 65 is imprecise.

 

2. My ability to research whether this coin CAC'd at 64 AND also at 65, is precise.

 

#2 is what is being debated.

#1 is not

[Tradedollarnut]

IMHO It has a nice strike for a SF Peace $ but too many hits to be a MS65 CAC coin. Sorry I have personally seen and owned several 23-S toned Peace $ with less marks that were graded MS64.

 

Strike means NOTHING. Hits? I have always said that the biggest grading mistake collectors make is focusing too much on hits and ignoring the overall fabric of a coin.

[Tradedollarnut]

No one is claiming that level of precise-ability...

 

So you think it's ok to criticize PCGS and CAC when your abilty to assess their performance is admitably imprecise? That is just silly...

 

1. My ability to determine whether this coin is a 64 or a 65 is imprecise.

 

2. My ability to research whether this coin CAC'd at 64 AND also at 65, is precise.

 

#2 is what is being debated.

#1 is not

 

The ringleader here just assessed the coin at 64.8-65.1 off an image. I would say #1 is being hotly debated.

 

#2 happens and there is a good explanation for it. Whether you choose to accept that explanation is up to you.

[mumu]

#2 happens and there is a good explanation for it. Whether you choose to accept that explanation is up to you.

 

OK, So Ill ask again, do you feel that the fact that it happens is a good thing for the hobby?

[mumu]

The ringleader here just assessed the coin at 64.8-65.1 off an image. I would say #1 is being hotly debated.

 

I disagree with your recount of the events. "The ringleader" is not assessing of an image alone. But also the factt that 6 out of 7 times, PCGS has determined, with the coin in hand, and by 3 different people each time(alledgedly) that the coin was less than a 65.

[Tradedollarnut]

OK, So Ill ask again, do you feel that the fact that it happens is a good thing for the hobby

 

That depends. I buy coins where I think the price is appropriate for the grade that I agree with. I have paid the next grade up and I have paid the next grade down. I would hate to think that just because a TPG assigns a certain grade that a coin will never be graded what I think it deserves. Now multiply me by 1,000 and you see the fluidness of the situation. It's not necessarily right or wrong - it just is....

[Tradedollarnut]

The ringleader here just assessed the coin at 64.8-65.1 off an image. I would say #1 is being hotly debated.

 

I disagree with your recount of the events. "The ringleader" is not assessing of an image alone. But also the factt that 6 out of 7 times, PCGS has determined, with the coin in hand, and by 3 different people each time(alledgedly) that the coin was less than a 65.

 

Uhmmm - yes he is. He's biased by the fact the grading history is known but he is still assessing off an image. Note that it doesn't bother him that his own crackout blue ribbon jobs go up.....

 

It doesn't matter what a coin's grade history is - unless you know the exact reason why it graded what it did. My very own 73CC trade dollar graded 64 several times - and then wouldnt cross many times more. Yet I consider it high end at 65 and so does JA. And the reason it 64d so many times? Because PCGS was being anal about the strike on the head and using it as an excuse to keep the grade down. In the past decade, strike is no longer such a limitor on grade as it was before - standards evolve

[mumu]

Some of you bigger players need to realize that the majority of collectors dont have the luxury to get on a plane and go see the coins they are considering in hand. Nor do many of the coins even warrant that if possible(certainly not mine) So pictures is all we have. And many people have gotten good enough at doing so not only to not get stung but to also profit from it. That cannot be ignored.