"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[MarkFeld]

Dealer has a new coin listed for sale at $3275.

 

Customer inquires about it, and, after being told dealer paid just shy of $2900 for it, wants to see it on approval at $3000.

 

Dealer tells customer that under the circumstances (his cost just shy of $2900 and the coin being newly listed), the offer was insulting.

 

What say you?

[bsshog40]

I think that the term insulting should not have been used. I'm sure the dealer would like to make more than $100 profit depending on what his ventures consisted of to aquire the coin, but he should have just counteroffered with what his bottom dollar would have been.

[noow]

No, I do not see the offer as insulting. A quick way for the dealer to make a hundred bucks.

 

I do think the dealer could have used a less insulting rebuttal (pun intended) and offered something higher instead of saying the customer was being "insulting".

 

 

However, the circumstances can fluctuate widely - the dealer coukd be "right" or "wrong".

[DaveG]

I think "insulting" is in the mind of the beholder.

 

edited to add: I don't think I know anyone who thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make an insulting offer and that will motivate the seller to sell me the item I'm interested in buying."

 

 

However . . .

 

Was this an established client or some stranger "off the street"?

 

Did the dealer "overpay" for the coin - that is, will the dealer have a hard time getting the price he wants for the coin?

 

Does this dealer usually list his coins at his "firm" price or does he usually build in room for a discount?

 

 

From what I've seen in the numismatic marketplace, this could be anything from the usual behavior of two people who've been doing business together for decades (insulting each other every time they do business) to a coin collector's (poorly chosen) idea of how to open negotiations.

[Old Pueblo]

12% premium seems perfectly reasonable to me for the listed price and the offer barely commands a reply.

Perhaps the client does not appreciate the travel, time and expertise?

 

 

 

IMHO

 

 

OP

[Walkerfan]

Dealer has a new coin listed for sale at $3275.

 

Customer inquires about it, and, after being told dealer paid just shy of $2900 for it, wants to see it on approval at $3000.

 

Dealer tells customer that under the circumstances (his cost just shy of $2900 and the coin being newly listed), the offer was insulting.

 

What say you?

 

Honestly, I have had this happen to me before. I saw a coin in a dealer's inventory for 2900. I called that dealer and inquired about it and was told that I could have it for 2800. I passed on it and it sold. It later reappeared in another dealers inventory for 3100. I STILL liked the coin and was considering it. I inquired about it with this second dealer (the fact that I could of had it for less, still fresh in my mind). I was told by dealer # 2 that he would not accept less than 3050 (I knew that he paid around 2800 for it). I told him this and pressured him to sell it to me for 2950 (I wanted to meet him in the middle). He still wouldn't go below 3050, despite what I knew and what he knew that I knew. He was not insulted and neither was I; It's just business. He was, probably, unhappy that I had inside info on it but I don't think he was insulted (I hope not but, if he was, it doesn't bother me). I passed on it once again with no hard feelings at all towards him.

[gmarguli]

I would not call the offer insulting. Slightly optimistic on the part of the customer, but not insulting. Many customers have zero clue about markups and might feel that you making a quick $100+ on the coin is fair.

 

I would have told the customer - assuming they are a "decent" customer - that should the coin remain in inventory, I will contact them to discuss their offer in X weeks.

[x2rider]

I wouldn't say the offer was insulting but a would like to think that I would be able to make a little more then 3% for all the effort I had gone to to aquire it

[coinman_23885]

I would not call the offer insulting. Slightly optimistic on the part of the customer, but not insulting. Many customers have zero clue about markups and might feel that you making a quick $100+ on the coin is fair.

 

I would have told the customer - assuming they are a "decent" customer - that should the coin remain in inventory, I will contact them to discuss their offer in X weeks.

 

+1

[x2rider]

This is the coin in Question and if I could aquire it on a layaway I would have it in an instant . This is a beauty looking coin (thumbs u

 

[jom]

The dealer shouldn't do that. I had a guy on the BST ATS do that to me. He didn't say I insulted him but he used a when he responded back. I didn't do a deal with him then nor will I in the future.

 

If you don't like an offer just do what Greg says...say no thanks or "I'll get back to you later" or some such. A dealer has every right to ask whatever the hell they want and a buyer can offer whatever they want. A deal gets done when they come to something in the middle they agree on.

 

This is the coin in Question and if I could aquire it on a layaway I would have it in an instant . This is a beauty looking coin (thumbs u

 

 

Looks like a great coin. You should buy it anyway....pony up the dough dude!

 

jom

[x2rider]

It would mean I would have to sell some bust halfs and who would want those .

Some of them are used

[Mokiechan]

Not an insulting offer but also not an offer that is likely to be accepted. I would think any dealer would want to make 10% minimum on any of his acquisitions. The dealer markup seemed reasonable and I would probably offer 3200.00 and pay the full amount if I really wanted the coin, if the dealer's price was reasonable, and if I just had to have it for my collection.

[ldhair]

I can see how a dealer would be insulted but he may have ran the customer off forever. Maybe the dealer wanted to run him off because of a past history of low ball offers and returns. The buyer wanted it on approval. It could be that they are good friends and can get by with saying stuff like that to each other. Lots of ways to view this from the information we have.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I don't think his offer was insulting. A little low, yes, and less than you wanted for the coin. Being that it was new to your inventory, you could have phrased it better, or given him more room to maneuver. I would actually say the $3000 offer was a valid opening counteroffer - to which you could have responded with $3100 or something. No need to insult the customer by saying he insulted you.

 

Of course, I only see the paraphrased text you have here, the actual wording of your messages could change the atmosphere of the conversation entirely.

 

I reserve the term insulting for egregiously low offers. For example, when I was trying to sell my 1934D Walker recently, I had it listed on Ebay for $1600. One guy offered me $850. That was an insulting offer.

[Barndog]

I'm just guessing there is more to the story. In other words, there is likely some additional history between the dealer and client that just has this dealer tired of dealing with the guy. Using the word "insulting" demonstrates the dealer has had enough of his shenanigans and would be just fine with not having the guy as a client ever again.

[BillJones]

I would not have used the word "insulting" in the reply, but I don't blame the dealer for passing, especially when it was an approval sale. I guess this another view of the same story that appeared ATS. It’s not reasonable to expect a dealer to flip something for a 3.4% mark-up that he has just purchased. Given the fact that it is not a finial sale, that is darn poor reward relative to the investment involved.

 

 

[World Colonial]

No, to me whether an offer should be considered insulting should be based upon the market value of the coin and not what someone paid for it.

 

With the coins I collect, the market price is much less established and well known than US coins. But when I have bought coins, I did not know what the seller paid for it, but even if I did, it would not matter to me. I would not make a "lowball offer" for the coin but I am not going to pay a price that guarantees the seller a profit either if I think it is more than I should pay. What they paid for it and whether they did or did not overpay is not my problem.

 

What I consider insulting is when potential buyers make an offer which they know is far less than what the coin is worth. I have had that occur on eBay where I know that the bidder is a dealer. I have told them that if they want the coin, they need to make a reasonable offer and occassionally, I have just blocked them.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

insult (L. in-, on + salire, to leap)

 

To SUBJECT (caps added) to an act, remark.,etc.MEANT (caps added) to hurt the feelings or pride-n.an insulting act,remark,etc.

 

Was the Offer MEANT to be insulting?

Did the Dealer understand the word used, or "leap" to an assumption of the offer based on his personal understanding of the word?

 

Sometimes, we simply don't communicate very well, by the words we use.

 

However, in the Bronx, well.....it may be slightly different, and the reply may be different.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

 

[e1cnr]

Not as bad as some of the offers I have received trying to sell coins at shows

 

 

perhaps this person has just started negotiations

 

 

 

 

regardless, I would let them know it is below what I am willing to let it go for at this time and will not be sending to them on approval (at that price)

 

 

 

If this offer came from an excellent client, my opinion may be much different than from someone who has just made first contact

 

 

edit to add, is this a hypothetical based on a thread ATS

or a coin you are involved with?

 

ATS thread

[DaveG]

This reminds me of a story a dealer told me a few months ago:

 

He had in his case a PCGS-slabbed MS-65 Buffalo Nickel.

 

Now, I don't know much about Buffalos, but this dealer, who specializes in them, said that this coin was very well struck for the date-and-mintmark. (I do know enough to know that the series is riddled with weakly struck dates-and-mintmarks.)

 

A potential customer approached the dealer and asked to look at the coin. The first words out of the potential customer's mouth were: "Well, the coin's not well struck."

 

The dealer took the coin from the potential customer, placed it on the table behind him and told the potential customer that he wouldn't discuss the coin with him.

 

The potential customer just shook his head and walked away.

 

The dealer told me that he would never sell the coin to that potential customer, as he wouldn't "appreciate the coin properly."

 

They never even got to talk about price.

 

As far as I know, the potential customer may have been joking or he may have said what he said as an opening for negotiation.

 

In any event, the dealer was "insulted."

[RichH]

I don't see the offer as insulting. The dealer is marking up the coin 13%, I assume this covers his overhead plus a fair profit margin while still giving him some room to negotiate. What is not know in how long the dealer has had the coin, if he overpaid , etc. If I am receiving the coin by mail I might offer the $3000 plus postage so that the dealer nets the $100 or 3.4% mark-up. Theoretically, If the dealer is buying and selling each coin he has purchased in his inventory with 3% markup within one month's time he would be making an annualized return of 36%, which I am certain he would take if guaranteed.Also, as a buyer, when I think that a coin is priced high based upon my price and population research, I will sometimes state those facts when negotiating. I will also consider the eye appeal "premium" above the published price.Bottom line, the offer is not insulting, the dealer is offered a profit and it is his decision to accept or reject based upon his expectation of how long it will take to sell and his cost structure..

[MarkFeld]

I don't see the offer as insulting. The dealer is marking up the coin 13%, I assume this covers his overhead plus a fair profit margin while still giving him some room to negotiate. What is not know in how long the dealer has had the coin, if he overpaid , etc. If I am receiving the coin by mail I might offer the $3000 plus postage so that the dealer nets the $100 or 3.4% mark-up. Theoretically, If the dealer is buying and selling each coin he has purchased in his inventory with 3% markup within one month's time he would be making an annualized return of 36%, which I am certain he would take if guaranteed.Also, as a buyer, when I think that a coin is priced high based upon my price and population research, I will sometimes state those facts when negotiating. I will also consider the eye appeal "premium" above the published price.Bottom line, the offer is not insulting, the dealer is offered a profit and it is his decision to accept or reject based upon his expectation of how long it will take to sell and his cost structure..

 

The 13% mark-up is below the % which most dealers mark-up non bullion and non-generic coins.

 

The dealer had bought the coin two days prior to sending out his list of new offerings.

 

The (approval basis) offer was received within approximately an hour of the dealer having sent out his new list.

 

The $3000 (approval basis) offer was made after the customer had been made aware that the dealer had paid just shy of $2900 for the coin.

 

The customer noted recent sales of the same type and grade coin which had been below the customer's offer.

 

But whether because he didn't know about them, or didn't care to mention them, the customer failed to note the sales which had been above his offer.

 

I am the dealer in question.

[ldhair]

Fuzzy math. Put it in GP. That puts you broke and at a loss.

Edit to add. Marks post was faster than mine. I'm always slow.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Given the Logic previously displayed many times by the Dealer in question, and the command of language similarly displayed by the Dealer, the logical conclusion is the the Offer was MEANT to be insulting, and the Dealer detected the Insult, whether by previous relationship, voice inflection of the potential buyer, choice of words by the potential buyer, and the obvious (to me ) potential cost of sending the coin out on approval and the cost to mail and the Dealer's labor cost to mail, further limiting the $120.00 potential "windfall" the Dealer may have joyously received to probably a little under $50.00, and thus causing the Dealer to not be in the "windfall" category of profit.

 

But (there is always a "but") the Dealer could be a grumpy guy-The Bronx Cheer not withstanding.....

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[MarkFeld]

Given the Logic previously displayed many times by the Dealer in question, and the command of language similarly displayed by the Dealer, the logical conclusion is the the Offer was MEANT to be insulting, and the Dealer detected the Insult, whether by previous relationship, voice inflection of the potential buyer, choice of words by the potential buyer, and the obvious (to me ) potential cost of sending the coin out on approval and the cost to mail and the Dealer's labor cost to mail, further limiting the $120.00 potential "windfall" the Dealer may have joyously received to probably a little under $50.00, and thus causing the Dealer to not be in the "windfall" category of profit.

 

But (there is always a "but") the Dealer could be a grumpy guy-The Bronx Cheer not withstanding.....

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

To be fair to the other party, I do not think it was his intention to insult me.

 

Sincerely,

GG

[Legend-migration]

Mark,

 

I generally do not reply to threads anymore, but this one has me really fired up.

 

Absolutely do I agree the offer was insulting. Its not like this coin had been in a dealers box for 2 months. People, like it or not, dealers help more people then they harm. 4% will not allow dealers to survive.

 

How does a collector with little hard knowledge get off making this judgement that HE feels the coin is overpriced? I understand the coin was never seen by this person. Sure, he was comparing auction records, but he should know better-maybe even trust the dealer.

 

You are entiteld to make a reasonable mark up out of the gate on a decent coin.

 

I had sold this person a newp at a "favor" rate recently because it was a bigger coin I wanted to move for some instant cash (I quoted him 5%). Had it been any other coin-I would have said NO! If someone wants to play big spender, then they should know how to act.

 

Further, I think it is even more childish his post on the PCGS forums. Really, do we need to air this stuff? Sorry for the rant

[jom]

To be fair to the other party, I do not think it was his intention to insult me.

 

Sincerely,

GG

 

I guess I don't understand. If you didn't think his intention was to insult then WHY tell him that? In fact, I think it's a bad idea even if you think he DID intend it....let alone the opposite.

 

I guess I'm just clueless...I don't get why you would say that to a customer regardless of how you "feel". I saw his reasoning ATS and it didn't seem out of place...but still why would you SAY that to him?

 

GG?

 

jom

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

It is true that fairness is logical, and it is also possible for an Offer to not be fair and not logical AND insulting as a result.

 

If there was not an intention to insult, then there is no insult- just a Bronx Offer that was rejected in a Bronx manner.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[MarkFeld]

To be fair to the other party, I do not think it was his intention to insult me.

 

Sincerely,

GG

 

I guess I don't understand. If you didn't think his intention was to insult then WHY tell him that? In fact, I think it's a bad idea even if you think he DID intend it....let alone the opposite.

 

I guess I'm just clueless...I don't get why you would say that to a customer regardless of how you "feel". I saw his reasoning ATS and it didn't seem out of place...but still why would you SAY that to him?

 

GG?

 

jom

 

Because, rather than thinking it quietly, behind his back, I wanted to let him know what I thought of his offer. It is as simple as that, even though others are free to and apparently do disagree.