"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[MarkFeld]

Basically this all boils down to what the potential buyer thought was a "fair" profit for a dealer. His idea of fair differs from the seller's.

 

It should boil down to what is a fair price for the coin regardless of what the dealer paid. Who cares what the dealer paid for the coin?

 

The dealer?

 

And, though a lot of buyers deny it, I think many of them also care what the dealer paid.

 

[Houston Investor]

In doing shows for over 20 years and operating an online business I certainly won't dispute buyers are interested in what a dealer paid . I have shared tables with dealers at shows who have used what they paid (or so they claim) as a sales tool (or transparency) in flipping coins to me. Rather than being impressed the dealer is operating on such a narrow spread one has to step back and analyze if the deal is something worth investing in or fits their business model.

 

Coin People are among some of the most Cheap A people I have known. They would haggle over the price of a $10 lap dance. If they know my cost in an item there is no doubt they will try to use it to their advantage in price negotiation. This is not a business one can wear their emotions on their sleeve or be sensitive because someone is seeking to negotiate a deal to their advantage.

 

While your mode of operation seems to work for you, I don't reveal my cost to customers (they would use this knowledge to their advantage) or send out approvals. Some items I have room for negotiation and others I don't. On the latter being firm and convincing as to the price works for me. If I am unwilling to negotiate on an item the statement "thats my best price as I operate on a narrow spread" works best for me for someone making a counteroffer. There are people on these message boards and the bourse at shows who have an unrealistic or ignorant idea of what it takes to make it in the coin business and while I will read their threads for entertainment value, I have decided not to argue with them or let their comments press my emotional buttons. Their opinion as to the reasonableness of my profit margin does not matter to me - what does is the performance of my business.

 

Thank you for sharing, this has been an interesting thread. I think you have a really impressive inventory and website.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I'll add that I do not hesitate to reveal what a coin cost me, when asked. I don't care what a potential buyer bases his decision on... I know how much I need and simply don't sell if that expectation can't be met.

 

I can't tell you how many time after time after time I've been confronted by that kind of seller who insists that if I paid X, I should sell it to him for Y at discount Z. One of my favorite responses is to ask what coins he has to offer me at a similar discount.

[jom]

And, though a lot of buyers deny it, I think many of them also care what the dealer paid.

 

I'm sure they do but it's still not relevant. Greg's right...it only matters what the coin is worth NOW...at the moment. I mean, what if you had paid $100 for it 20 years ago or something. What are you going to do now? Do a Discounted Cash Flow analysis for the buyer? C'mon!

 

The seller has every right to sell whatever coin at whatever price. If the seller has it priced too high he'll never sell. If the buyer is too cheap he'll never buy. They have to end up somewhere in the middle eventually.

 

jom

[shirohniichan]

Basically this all boils down to what the potential buyer thought was a "fair" profit for a dealer. His idea of fair differs from the seller's.

 

It should boil down to what is a fair price for the coin regardless of what the dealer paid. Who cares what the dealer paid for the coin?

 

In this discussion what the owner paid is relevant because the prospective buyer said he based his offer on a "fair" $100 profit.

 

When we're discussing the true value of the item apart from what is a fair profit, then what the seller paid for it is irrelevant.

 

A buyer I knew said he'd tell prospective customers who demanded to know how much he paid, "If I won it in a poker game would you offer me a dollar for it?"

[SWNGC]

Obviously you don't know the OP and have had no dealings with him . Because you would know that if Mark said he paid XYZ for a coin then he would of paid XYZ for that coin

And as for your share trade . Really . I trade and would never take a profit of a $100 in that amount of time , Its just not worth it

You have a buy/sell spread both ways , your time ( which is not only the time that you are in the trade but the time it takes to research the trade ) as well as all the other sight unseen overheads . Plus the risk . Your a brokers Dream

 

Martin

 

Martin,

 

Hence the "No offense to OP". Again, this isn't a personal matter and there are no emotions involved. Unless you Know as an Undisputable fact that someone paid X for anything, then there is no Legitimate reason to believe that they really paid X.

 

As for the stock comparison, and to refute your "its (should be it's) not worth it" statement, making $100 in five minutes equates to a simple compounded hourly return of $1200 on $5000. (That's still $100 -$10in -$10out = $80*12 = $960, even if you pay $10/trade) I don't know many people who would call that a bad trade... Any buy/sell spread that exists is irrelevant, the statement was that you paid $5k and could sell for $5.1k, irregardless of bid/ask spreads. (One of the biggest faults that holds people back from success is a tendancy to overcomplicate the simple things)

 

(fyi - I was one of "those guys" in the 90s who could trade on pennies while everyone else was stuck trading on 1/16ths - i.e. I could buy 20k shares at $23.26 and sell them right away at 23.37 - Soooo, If you entered a market order to sell, and there was a book of 5 million shares waiting to buy at 23.25, I stepped in front of the line and took your "weak hand" sell order for a penny more than "bid" and then offered it right back up at 23.31, or .0025 under "ask". So as soon as the next guy entered a market order to buy, I filled first, regardless of whether another 10 million shares sat in line at 23.3125) My take, $1000 (less $40 for my broker) for ten seconds worth of "work" and then do it again, and again, and again.

 

"your (should be you're) a broker's dream" I won. The broker won. (They called it playing the "teenies" - Which was a term for 1/16ths) Now computers do it all day everyday to everyone as order matching and predictive modeling systems optimize trades, moving shares in and out of "house" accounts and feed rock star forecasts based on really cool math to hedging/derivatives/risk mitigation traders, who optimize returns even further using more cool math, over the 3 days they have to actually "settle" your order. (You would be floored to learn the whole truth behind what Really happens when you push that buy/sell button)

 

"plus the risk" - As long as I picked a big, slow moving, stable stock with a big deep "level 2" book, risk was well mitigated (Think fortune 500 here). I made insane cash and got to go home every night (when prices were subject to change but you couldn't react or manage) with nothing but "cash" in the account (now that's risk mitigation and good sleep, especially when coupled with good food/spirit)

 

To address Overheads, the best way to deal with Overhead expenses in any business is to take advantage of economies of scale... i.e. sell more widgets and it takes a smaller contribution from each individual sale to pay for your Overhead, which makes your pricing more competitive, which lets you sell more... See a pattern (Think Walmart style, vs the local mom & pop grocer/hardware/etc).

 

It seems everyone is swinging for the fences, and waiting for that "settlement" check to come in the mail...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

To address Overheads, the best way to deal with Overhead expenses in any business is to take advantage of economies of scale... i.e. sell more widgets and it takes a smaller contribution from each individual sale to pay for your Overhead, which makes your pricing more competitive, which lets you sell more... See a pattern (Think Walmart style, vs the local mom & pop grocer/hardware/etc).

Anyone who has tried to make a living wage selling coins will undoubtedly tell you that it is MUCH easier for a multi-billion dollar company to sell "widgets" than it is for a typical coin dealer. Even Heritage knows that , and they ain't small potatoes.

[James_OldeTowne]

edit to add, is this a hypothetical based on a thread ATS

or a coin you are involved with?

 

ATS thread

Banned.

 

How ignorant.

[coinman_23885]

edit to add, is this a hypothetical based on a thread ATS

or a coin you are involved with?

 

ATS thread

Banned.

 

How ignorant.

 

Who was banned? For posting about this subject matter?

[e1cnr]

how can you tell if anyone got banned

 

 

but the thread got nuked (mysteriously disappeared)

[Hard Times]

PCGS loses all credibility almost every time it removes a thread on their boards - most of the time it is wholly unjustified. Why anyone would want to deal with them at any level is beyond me.... Big PCGS Brother is watching you...

 

 

[coinman_23885]

PCGS loses all credibility almost every time it removes a thread on their boards - most of the time it is wholly unjustified. Why anyone would want to deal with them at any level is beyond me.... Big PCGS Brother is watching you...

 

 

I post ATS mainly for their buy, sell, and trade forum which appears to get more traffic that the analogous forum here. Other than that, there is an occasionally interesting article or two every now or then.

[Dudley the 1st]

I'm certain this isn't the first time Mark has had to " decline " offers such as the one made by this potential buyer, and it won't be the last. I too, have had similar situations where offers presented were far below what I paid as a " Dealer " . All I could do and say is simply that while I appreciate your offer I can simply not accommodate you at that Price. More than just a few times, I walked away shaking my head in disbelief of how some folks try to justify or disguise the fact that there reasoning for such offers, are without any merit, whatsoever.

 

I always take those few extra moments in conversation with them , to try to pass along the factual information. Most times, it falls on deaf ears.

 

This seems to be a situation that occurs more frequently with our newest generation collectors, but certainly not strictly limited to .

[shirohniichan]

I always take those few extra moments in conversation with them , to try to pass along the factual information. Most times, it falls on deaf ears.

 

You must be very patient.

 

Buyers' ability to fool themselves can be astounding. It really does make me wonder how people process information when they ask to see an item that is above their "firm" budget, and when they can't get the discount they want proceed to ask the discounted price of an even more expensive one.

 

Seller: "If the one I have listed for $650 can't be discounted to meet your $500 budget, why are you even asking about the other one for $775?"

Shopper: "Sometimes dealers have inventory they need to move, so I figure they'll be more aggressive on certain items."

 

More aggressive on aged inventory? Sure! But to have that much room so that the substantially more expensive coins can be sold for less than the less expensive coins? Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[delta]

This thread has many useful comments, but the topic is misleading in several ways.

 

1. Normally, someone's claim of what they paid for something they're selling is liable to be part of the sales talk.

 

2. As already pointed out, what someone actually paid is almost irrelevant, or else they're penalized for discovering a bargain, or rewarded for overpaying. If you overpaid, you or your heirs might eventually have to sell for a loss. It's not realistic to expect a particular minimum profit, certainly not on every transaction.

 

3. However, Mark Feld is an exceptional case because of his extraordinary numismatic judgement, and the way he operates, and his activities should not be equated with the usual wheeling-dealing. But he should try not to be so sensitive as to feel insulted if someone treats him as if it were merely a run-of-the-mill haggle. He should have merely pleasantly smiled with a "no thanks." Much of the discussion in this thread is relevant to only when Mark Feld is involved, and does not automatically apply to other sellers.

 

4. So even if Mark Feld might feel insulted, most others should not be, and therefore it's not a subject to generalize about. If it were me, even if deep down I felt insulted, I'd keep that feeling entirely to myself.

 

[Kamillion]

Obviously you don't know the OP and have had no dealings with him . Because you would know that if Mark said he paid XYZ for a coin then he would of paid XYZ for that coin

And as for your share trade . Really . I trade and would never take a profit of a $100 in that amount of time , Its just not worth it

You have a buy/sell spread both ways , your time ( which is not only the time that you are in the trade but the time it takes to research the trade ) as well as all the other sight unseen overheads . Plus the risk . Your a brokers Dream

 

Martin

 

Martin,

 

Hence the "No offense to OP". Again, this isn't a personal matter and there are no emotions involved. Unless you Know as an Undisputable fact that someone paid X for anything, then there is no Legitimate reason to believe that they really paid X.

 

As for the stock comparison, and to refute your "its (should be it's) not worth it" statement, making $100 in five minutes equates to a simple compounded hourly return of $1200 on $5000. (That's still $100 -$10in -$10out = $80*12 = $960, even if you pay $10/trade) I don't know many people who would call that a bad trade... Any buy/sell spread that exists is irrelevant, the statement was that you paid $5k and could sell for $5.1k, irregardless of bid/ask spreads. (One of the biggest faults that holds people back from success is a tendancy to overcomplicate the simple things)

 

(fyi - I was one of "those guys" in the 90s who could trade on pennies while everyone else was stuck trading on 1/16ths - i.e. I could buy 20k shares at $23.26 and sell them right away at 23.37 - Soooo, If you entered a market order to sell, and there was a book of 5 million shares waiting to buy at 23.25, I stepped in front of the line and took your "weak hand" sell order for a penny more than "bid" and then offered it right back up at 23.31, or .0025 under "ask". So as soon as the next guy entered a market order to buy, I filled first, regardless of whether another 10 million shares sat in line at 23.3125) My take, $1000 (less $40 for my broker) for ten seconds worth of "work" and then do it again, and again, and again.

 

"your (should be you're) a broker's dream" I won. The broker won. (They called it playing the "teenies" - Which was a term for 1/16ths) Now computers do it all day everyday to everyone as order matching and predictive modeling systems optimize trades, moving shares in and out of "house" accounts and feed rock star forecasts based on really cool math to hedging/derivatives/risk mitigation traders, who optimize returns even further using more cool math, over the 3 days they have to actually "settle" your order. (You would be floored to learn the whole truth behind what Really happens when you push that buy/sell button)

 

"plus the risk" - As long as I picked a big, slow moving, stable stock with a big deep "level 2" book, risk was well mitigated (Think fortune 500 here). I made insane cash and got to go home every night (when prices were subject to change but you couldn't react or manage) with nothing but "cash" in the account (now that's risk mitigation and good sleep, especially when coupled with good food/spirit)

 

To address Overheads, the best way to deal with Overhead expenses in any business is to take advantage of economies of scale... i.e. sell more widgets and it takes a smaller contribution from each individual sale to pay for your Overhead, which makes your pricing more competitive, which lets you sell more... See a pattern (Think Walmart style, vs the local mom & pop grocer/hardware/etc).

 

It seems everyone is swinging for the fences, and waiting for that "settlement" check to come in the mail...

 

 

 

 

 

 

these are coins, not stocks

[Walkerfan]

Obviously you don't know the OP and have had no dealings with him . Because you would know that if Mark said he paid XYZ for a coin then he would of paid XYZ for that coin

And as for your share trade . Really . I trade and would never take a profit of a $100 in that amount of time , Its just not worth it

You have a buy/sell spread both ways , your time ( which is not only the time that you are in the trade but the time it takes to research the trade ) as well as all the other sight unseen overheads . Plus the risk . Your a brokers Dream

 

Martin

 

Martin,

 

Hence the "No offense to OP". Again, this isn't a personal matter and there are no emotions involved. Unless you Know as an Undisputable fact that someone paid X for anything, then there is no Legitimate reason to believe that they really paid X.

 

As for the stock comparison, and to refute your "its (should be it's) not worth it" statement, making $100 in five minutes equates to a simple compounded hourly return of $1200 on $5000. (That's still $100 -$10in -$10out = $80*12 = $960, even if you pay $10/trade) I don't know many people who would call that a bad trade... Any buy/sell spread that exists is irrelevant, the statement was that you paid $5k and could sell for $5.1k, irregardless of bid/ask spreads. (One of the biggest faults that holds people back from success is a tendancy to overcomplicate the simple things)

 

(fyi - I was one of "those guys" in the 90s who could trade on pennies while everyone else was stuck trading on 1/16ths - i.e. I could buy 20k shares at $23.26 and sell them right away at 23.37 - Soooo, If you entered a market order to sell, and there was a book of 5 million shares waiting to buy at 23.25, I stepped in front of the line and took your "weak hand" sell order for a penny more than "bid" and then offered it right back up at 23.31, or .0025 under "ask". So as soon as the next guy entered a market order to buy, I filled first, regardless of whether another 10 million shares sat in line at 23.3125) My take, $1000 (less $40 for my broker) for ten seconds worth of "work" and then do it again, and again, and again.

 

"your (should be you're) a broker's dream" I won. The broker won. (They called it playing the "teenies" - Which was a term for 1/16ths) Now computers do it all day everyday to everyone as order matching and predictive modeling systems optimize trades, moving shares in and out of "house" accounts and feed rock star forecasts based on really cool math to hedging/derivatives/risk mitigation traders, who optimize returns even further using more cool math, over the 3 days they have to actually "settle" your order. (You would be floored to learn the whole truth behind what Really happens when you push that buy/sell button)

 

"plus the risk" - As long as I picked a big, slow moving, stable stock with a big deep "level 2" book, risk was well mitigated (Think fortune 500 here). I made insane cash and got to go home every night (when prices were subject to change but you couldn't react or manage) with nothing but "cash" in the account (now that's risk mitigation and good sleep, especially when coupled with good food/spirit)

 

To address Overheads, the best way to deal with Overhead expenses in any business is to take advantage of economies of scale... i.e. sell more widgets and it takes a smaller contribution from each individual sale to pay for your Overhead, which makes your pricing more competitive, which lets you sell more... See a pattern (Think Walmart style, vs the local mom & pop grocer/hardware/etc).

 

It seems everyone is swinging for the fences, and waiting for that "settlement" check to come in the mail...

 

 

 

 

 

 

these are coins, not stocks

 

Certified coins are fungible assets just like stocks and, IMHO, they are less volitile and a better investment. Last week, at a show, I made $500 for 45 minutes of 'work'.

[Kamillion]

. please.

 

they are apple and oranges.

 

ive made thousands in minutes, even seconds before.

 

and lost.

 

and im not even talking about options or futures..

 

 

they are COMPLETELY different.

 

 

on a side note, PCGS stock CLCT is plummeting =)

 

coins have only been a good invested RECENTLY bc of the huge run in silver and gold, and i wouldnt say they are safe, bc if the metals plummet....byebye

[MJ]

 

Certified coins maybe lots of things. Fungible they are not. MJ

 

 

[MJ]

 

I don't think this is a true statement. Premiums of gold coins have shiveled on the recent gold run up.

 

This is no real correlation between physical silver prices and silver collectable coins. (non bullion).

 

MJ

[Kamillion]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

[MJ]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

I'm saying that the rise in silver didn't effect "collector coins" as the coin only went up around $35 total in melt value on a silver dollar, $17.50 on a half dollar, $8.75 on a quarter using your example. Only coins tied directly to melt (low grade, bullion etc) would be effected by your assertion. Your is almost comical. MJ

[jom]

Certified coins are fungible assets just like stocks and, IMHO, they are less volitile and a better investment. Last week, at a show, I made $500 for 45 minutes of 'work'.

 

No offense and I don't want to start an argument at all but I don't believe that is even remotely true.

 

Two things here: First of all your $500 gain was not attributed to an investment. What you are doing is a BUSINESS. That is not the same thing.

 

Coins and stocks have had it's ups and downs as has real estate. What is the most volatile? I don't really know but the coin market runs no where near the volume that stocks do. To me that creates a far more volatile situation when it can be manipulated by very few people. Besides "stocks" are really just businesses and businesses do a lot more things that tangible assets do. They pay dividends and the create jobs. Coins (nor gold and silver for that matter) do neither.

 

Now...does that mean coins are a bad investment? Of course not...especially if you hold them for a long time. Plus...they are a lot more fun!

 

jom

[Kamillion]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

I'm saying that the rise in silver didn't effect "collector coins" as the coin only went up around $35 total in melt value on a silver dollar, $17.50 on a half dollar, $8.75 on a quarter using your example. Only coins tied directly to melt (low grade, bullion etc) would be effected by your assertion. Your is almost comical. MJ

 

 

i think it DID affect collector coins.

 

the %-gains that you said are astronomical for the time it took for those gains to occur.

 

and made coins more popular just in general, imo. which adds more premium if more buyers are around now (and sellers). im not talking about thousand dollar coins, but coins in general.

they were cheaper to buy and send to get graded.

 

collecting became more expensive, and/or difficult.

more fakes, due to bullion rise as well.

 

im just a noob though but that is what i have seen.

i wasnt laughing to be comical, i was laughing bc your statement is ridiculous.

 

ill use an example

Ex: All morgans are collectible coins. All morgans rose in price a lot while silver flew. Morgans did not go up in value much annually, previously.

[Walkerfan]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

Only the ones that were worth their weight in silver or gold. Numismatic rarities remained the same.

[Walkerfan]

 

Certified coins maybe lots of things. Fungible they are not. MJ

 

 

You're right. I should have said that they are LIQUID just like stocks and bonds, since they are NOT equally substitutable (even when certified the same grade by the same service), as we all know. There is ALOT of variation.

[noow]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

Only the ones that were worth their weight in silver or gold. Numismatic rarities remained the same.

Well, actually, even the rare coins benifit from silver gains, even if it is not in the range of the bullion value.

A coin having metal value has a sort of "pride" that is hard to explain. For example, say 2 coins are of equal value and rarity. One is gold, the other tin. Which would you choose?

 

[Walkerfan]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

Only the ones that were worth their weight in silver or gold. Numismatic rarities remained the same.

Well, actually, even the rare coins benifit from silver gains, even if it is not in the range of the bullion value.

A coin having metal value has a sort of "pride" that is hard to explain. For example, say 2 coins are of equal value and rarity. One is gold, the other tin. Which would you choose?

 

What about a rare copper chain cent?

[leeg]

Aren't we a litttle off topic now?

[noow]

so your saying when silver went from 5 to 45 the silver coins didnt go up as a result?

 

 

Only the ones that were worth their weight in silver or gold. Numismatic rarities remained the same.

Well, actually, even the rare coins benifit from silver gains, even if it is not in the range of the bullion value.

A coin having metal value has a sort of "pride" that is hard to explain. For example, say 2 coins are of equal value and rarity. One is gold, the other tin. Which would you choose?

 

What about a rare copper chain cent?

Nope, no gain from bullion for a chain. But DEFINATLY for gold doubles.