"Would you say this is an insulting offer?"

[noow]

Aren't we a litttle off topic now?

[noow]

Aren't we a litttle off topic now?

[jom]

Aren't we a litttle off topic now?

 

Impressive. 900 posts in no time flat! I guess quoting yourself will do that.

 

jom

[MJ]

i wasnt laughing to be comical, i was laughing bc your statement is ridiculous>

 

Facts

 

Gold and silver are near all time highs. Rare and collector coins are nowhere near all time high in almost every series.

 

Gold premiums have come way down.

 

If I owned a $1000 Walker back when silver was $5 I certainly didn't own it because of it's $2.25 worth of silver value. The same coin today has $15 worth of silver in it. It's silver value is still meaningless/marginal to the value of the coin whatever it trades for today.

 

I went out of my way twice to differentiate melt coins vs collectable coins and their relationship to physical and twice you have missed the point.

 

I wasn't including cull or heavy circulated Morgans as collectable coins as they are slave to melt prices So your "ALL Morgan's are collectable coins" statement as your retort is meaningless to my points.

 

Higher precious metal prices probably do play into general coin market psychology in a calming manner. However if silver physical prices fell like in your original statement coins would not fall with them much to your chagrin. Collectable coins did not participate with the upside move of precious metals in lock step and they won't necessarily participate in the downside either. Your cull and heavily circulated Peace, Morgan's, Walkers etc that are tied to bullion prices will go down almost in tandem with physical.

 

The fact that you find my assertion ridiculous is your prerogative. I find your musings quite telling.from where I sit. MJ

 

edited for a typo

 

[DirtyGoldMan]

MJ,

This noow guy says that coins have pride. Last I checked, they were cold, inanimate objects. I think we live in a different universe, so do not bother trying to reconcile yours with his.

[coinman_23885]

Certified coins are fungible assets just like stocks and, IMHO, they are less volitile and a better investment. Last week, at a show, I made $500 for 45 minutes of 'work'.

 

No offense and I don't want to start an argument at all but I don't believe that is even remotely true.

 

Two things here: First of all your $500 gain was not attributed to an investment. What you are doing is a BUSINESS. That is not the same thing.

 

Coins and stocks have had it's ups and downs as has real estate. What is the most volatile? I don't really know but the coin market runs no where near the volume that stocks do. To me that creates a far more volatile situation when it can be manipulated by very few people. Besides "stocks" are really just businesses and businesses do a lot more things that tangible assets do. They pay dividends and the create jobs. Coins (nor gold and silver for that matter) do neither.

 

Now...does that mean coins are a bad investment? Of course not...especially if you hold them for a long time. Plus...they are a lot more fun!

 

jom

 

It's possible that he flipped a coin with a $500 profit in an hour. I have never flipped one so quickly and in such a small time frame, but I have purchased coins and sold them within a couple of months and made 25% or more.

[Kamillion]

i wasnt laughing to be comical, i was laughing bc your statement is ridiculous>

 

Facts

 

Gold and silver are near all time highs. Rare and collector coins are nowhere near all time high in almost every series.

 

Gold premiums have come way down.

 

If I owned a $1000 Walker back when silver was $5 I certainly didn't own it because of it's $2.25 worth of silver value. The same coin today has $15 worth of silver in it. It's silver value is still meaningless/marginal to the value of the coin whatever it trades for today.

 

I went out of my way twice to differentiate melt coins vs collectable coins and their relationship to physical and twice you have missed the point.

 

I wasn't including cull or heavy circulated Morgans as collectable coins as they are slave to melt prices So your "ALL Morgan's are collectable coins" statement as your retort is meaningless to my points.

 

Higher precious metal prices probably do play into general coin market psychology in a calming manner. However if silver physical prices fell like in your original statement coins would not fall with them much to your chagrin. Collectable coins did not participate with the upside move of precious metals in lock step and they won't necessarily participate in the downside either. Your cull and heavily circulated Peace, Morgan's, Walkers etc that are tied to bullion prices will go down almost in tandem with physical.

 

The fact that you find my assertion ridiculous is your prerogative. I find your musings quite telling.from where I sit. MJ

 

edited for a typo

 

your basically stating the obviously.

of course coins worth thousands are still going to be valuable no matter what the metal value is. most coins are not worth thousands. many coins were 5-50bux , and are now multiples of that. UNC morgans were like 10 bucks. now upwards of a 100. this is such an obvious concept i just dont think we are on the same page.

 

in my eyes any old coin in good shape is collectable, a coin doesnt have to be worth thousands to be collectable.

 

so i dont understand ur point except the obvious one: rare coins are always rare. how many 1000dollar walkers are there?

 

but a normal, nice looking walker, probably went from 5 bucks to 50. i am talking percentages and your talking dollar value.

 

if gold and silver plummet, goodluck trying to get what your paying now. for normal graded silver/gold coins.

[Walkerfan]

Certified coins are fungible assets just like stocks and, IMHO, they are less volitile and a better investment. Last week, at a show, I made $500 for 45 minutes of 'work'.

 

No offense and I don't want to start an argument at all but I don't believe that is even remotely true.

 

Two things here: First of all your $500 gain was not attributed to an investment. What you are doing is a BUSINESS. That is not the same thing.

 

Coins and stocks have had it's ups and downs as has real estate. What is the most volatile? I don't really know but the coin market runs no where near the volume that stocks do. To me that creates a far more volatile situation when it can be manipulated by very few people. Besides "stocks" are really just businesses and businesses do a lot more things that tangible assets do. They pay dividends and the create jobs. Coins (nor gold and silver for that matter) do neither.

 

Now...does that mean coins are a bad investment? Of course not...especially if you hold them for a long time. Plus...they are a lot more fun!

 

jom

 

Coins hold their value much better. Stock market investors can lose, literally, 100s of thousands virtually overnight. Coins may not appreciate quite as quickly as stock may or may not but they DO hold their value much better and they won't plummet like a slock, bond or money market mutual fund can and will. They are not perfectly fungible; I'll give you that, but with the TPGS the are much more easily and consistently traded on the open market.

[MJ]

 

A tremendous amount. Thousands I would hazard to guess and that's what makes make collectable to a lot of folks.

 

 

No, I am not even talking dollar value .Your analysis drawn is for for coins near their melt value. Bullion.You will not yield on this point so I'm wasting my time but I'm improving my typing skills in the process. I love my new Macbook Air.

 

 

Apples to watermelons. I expect any bullion I own ( heavy circulated Walkers, Morgans, Barbers etc) to plummet along with physical as in fact it is bullion. I expect my collector grade non bullion related coins to hold up fine. I suspect they might even go up in value.

Good luck yourself.

 

RYK, when will I ever learn? Punch me please.

 

Walkerfan, I figured after I typed my response to you that you may have meant Liquid in place of fungible. Well noted.

 

MJ

 

edited for spelling

[Kamillion]

i can see how you have trouble with simple things such as typing.

 

[MJ]

i wasnt laughing to be comical, i was laughing bc your statement is ridiculous>

 

Here, fixed it for you. My typing is improving. MJ

[Kamillion]

thats nice. now you just need to work on your education.

[jom]

Coins hold their value much better. Stock market investors can lose, literally, 100s of thousands virtually overnight. Coins may not appreciate quite as quickly as stock may or may not but they DO hold their value much better and they won't plummet like a slock, bond or money market mutual fund can and will. They are not perfectly fungible; I'll give you that, but with the TPGS the are much more easily and consistently traded on the open market.

 

You can also gain a lot overnight in the stock market. But that, to me, is irrelevant since ANY investment should be looked at in the long term. Coins are like gold/silver in that it might be a good hedge for awhile but coins DO drop in value fast. See late 80s, early 90s.

 

Coins are pretty fun and they can do well if you are patient (just like everything else) but I'm not sure I'd recommend them for the vast part of your portfolio. Gold/silver isn't a particularly good long-term investment at all....over the past 100 years it doesn't even remotely compare to businesses or real estate.

 

If it turns out in the next 100 years gold/silver/coins do better than RE or Stocks we are in HUGE trouble because, like I said, bullion/coins do NOT create jobs.

 

Coins are still much more fun though as we all know!...besides that I'd take numismatic items long before plain old boring gold/silver.

 

And, yes, poor Mark's thread has been tragically derailed!

 

jom

[MarkFeld]

......coins have only been a good invested RECENTLY bc of the huge run in silver and gold, and i wouldnt say they are safe, bc if the metals plummet....byebye

 

I think you are full of bologna. First of all, coins haven't been a particularly good investment, recently. And second of all, coins performed much better years ago, BEFORE gold and silver had their big run.

 

See here

 

And here

 

 

 

 

[MJ]

Mark, facts and logic will not harm him. Either he really does't want to get it or he just doesn't get it. Time to move on..........MJ

[Kamillion]

fact: silver coins over the last 10 years have gone from dollars to multiples of 10x

 

maybe all this gold and silver i've been dumping and made a killing on is just my imagination. i was a buyer back then. for the last year or so i have just been a seller. its common sense.

 

logic: you have none.

 

My time: none of that anymore either.

 

cheers

 

[MarkFeld]

fact: silver coins over the last 10 years have gone from dollars to multiples of 10x

 

maybe all this gold and silver i've been dumping and made a killing on is just my imagination. i was a buyer back then. for the last year or so i have just been a seller. its common sense.

 

logic: you have none.

 

My time: none of that anymore either.

 

cheers

Show us just one example of a silver coin that is trading at a multiple of 10x what it was 10 years ago, and which is not based primarily on its bullion content. Based on your claims, that should be quite easy to do, yet, I predict you won't be able to do so.

[MJ]

fact: silver coins over the last 10 years have gone from dollars to multiples of 10x

 

maybe all this gold and silver i've been dumping and made a killing on is just my imagination. i was a buyer back then. for the last year or so i have just been a seller. its common sense.

 

logic: you have none.

 

My time: none of that anymore either.

 

cheers

Show us just one example of a silver coin that is trading at a multiple of 10x what it was 10 years ago, and which is not based primarily on its bullion content. Based on your claims, that should be quite easy to do, yet, I predict you won't be able to do so.

 

His signature line says it all

 

"my posts are a figment of my imagination"

 

He reminds me a lot of BNB. MJ

[coinman_23885]

fact: silver coins over the last 10 years have gone from dollars to multiples of 10x

 

maybe all this gold and silver i've been dumping and made a killing on is just my imagination. i was a buyer back then. for the last year or so i have just been a seller. its common sense.

 

logic: you have none.

 

My time: none of that anymore either.

 

cheers

 

I haven't see this 10x increase that you are referring to, and even if you see some sort of putative increase, can you state with certainty that it was due to the price of silver? Have you considered that it could result from the advent of CAC stickering coins (remember many had theorized that low end pieces were keeping price guide values artificially low)? I'm not suggesting that I necessarily agree with the latter, but you cannot rule out the possibility of additional variables. If you truly want to make a point, in addition to naming an example, why don't you name several and perform some sort of regression analysis?

[e1cnr]

 

just a few years ago,(like 50 or so) I could go to my bank and buy bags of silver dollars for $1 a piece

 

now I have a hard time getting any for under $35 a piece

 

 

 

but that has nothing to do with whether the offer was insullting

(not really, just lower than willing to sell for)

or whether collectible coins will drop in value when PMs drop

(aren't all collectible markets truly just pyramid schemes?)

 

I feel most people would sell what they had in order to eat, if it came down to it

and more people will get into that situation as time goes by

[MarkFeld]

fact: silver coins over the last 10 years have gone from dollars to multiples of 10x

 

maybe all this gold and silver i've been dumping and made a killing on is just my imagination. i was a buyer back then. for the last year or so i have just been a seller. its common sense.

 

logic: you have none.

 

My time: none of that anymore either.

 

cheers

 

I haven't see this 10x increase that you are referring to, and even if you see some sort of putative increase, can you state with certainty that it was due to the price of silver? Have you considered that it could result from the advent of CAC stickering coins (remember many had theorized that low end pieces were keeping price guide values artificially low)? I'm not suggesting that I necessarily agree with the latter, but you cannot rule out the possibility of additional variables. If you truly want to make a point, in addition to naming an example, why don't you name several and perform some sort of regression analysis?

 

You're giving him far too much (undeserved) credibility, in even bringing up such possible scenarios.

 

Non-bullion coins have not increased in value by 10x during the past ten years. And I doubt that even a few, if any, bullion ones have, either. For example, even if you bought silver coins, at no premium, at silver's 10 year low, and sold at the high, you would be hard-pressed to have made 10x your money.

 

Simply put, his 10x figure was a concoction, which can't be backed up with facts. And he doesn't seem to have any regard for facts or addressing specifics. He deflects, instead. Accordingly, this will be my last post to this thread in reference to him or his unfounded remarks.

 

[shirohniichan]

Simply put, his 10x figure was a concoction, which can't be backed up with facts. And he doesn't seem to have any regard for facts or addressing specifics. He deflects, instead. Accordingly, this will be my last post to this thread in reference to him or his unfounded remarks.

 

Would you say his was an insulting post?

[SWNGC]

Simply put, his 10x figure was a concoction, which can't be backed up with facts. And he doesn't seem to have any regard for facts or addressing specifics. He deflects, instead. Accordingly, this will be my last post to this thread in reference to him or his unfounded remarks.

 

Would you say his was an insulting post?

 

I would call it appropriate, accurate and restrained under the circumstances and given the preceding dialog. (He chose a foolish and ill construed position and Mark called him out on it)

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I am going to hazzard an uneducated guess that the individual that is the "Deflector" does........ I am often wrong though.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[Houston Investor]

Unbelieveable this post has deterioted into a digital debate on the accuracy of someones estimate about the increase of silver vs numismatics. Everybody knows bullion related material has outperformed numismatics (in general). I specialized in modern world gold for years and this material has outperformed just about anything I have had in the numismatic area the last few years.

 

I still hope to see numismatics stage some kind of attempt at catchup but with the recession they continue to slide, especially classic commems. Most of my big ticket numismatic material I have sold to a couple of retail clients in Clear Lake and am in no hurry to replace. I have loaded up on modern world gold, USM Products, silver proof sets, mod silver commems close to melt, and deals on collections / estates. Silver and gold took a big hit today but the good news is its cheaper. Trader Rog (Roger Wiegand - Kitco) believes the EU will fail (too late them to bail it out financially), then revolution and ultimately WW3 as the major players fight over energy supplies.

 

I do have a question for the OP - Considering you narrow spread on your coin why in the world would you share your cost with the potential client? Another thing I found astounding with your deal is you were going to send a $3300 coin to someone on approval? What would be your legal recourse if he just decided to simply keep it and not pay or even skip? I think this would be like trying to collect on unsecured debt unless there was some kind of legal agreement. A shop owner in my area was telling me over lunch about approximately $30,000 in credit card he defaulted on in 2005 and 3 of the four creditors he settled at 25-50c on the dollar in 2008 and the fourth is still trying to collect on a $5500 piece thru the 4th farmed out collection agency and he simply laughs at them as this is beyond the 4 year Texas statute of limitations on this debt. These are professional credit / collectors and this guy beat them out of about 60% of it.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Considering you narrow spread on your coin why in the world would you share your cost with the potential client?

 

It was public information. It had been sold in the most recent Heritage auction. Just about everyone knows to check there first when they are considering buying a coin.

 

Another thing I found astounding with your deal is you were going to send a $3300 coin to someone on approval?

 

Hardly astounding, it's the way of the numismatic world. Today I received a $1750 coin on approval and a couple days earlier a $2850 coin. I once received a $16,500 coin on approval. I receive coins on approval all the time, and I send them to people I know well, also. Then again, I don't travel in the brass knuckle set.

[Houston Investor]

Way of the Numismatic world? What about the guy ATS who sent out the $2000 coin on approval and the buyer passed sending it back insured for what $300 and USPS lost it. How did that turn out? Wondering if that thread still there.

 

Nice attempt at deflection, but again what is the legal recourse (expensive attorney fees?) in the event the potential seller does not return the approval coin? Without a formal contract, I wonder if this would be essentially unsecured debt (probably uncollectible). I mean you proably could not even ding this guy on his credit rating - refer it to Tony (Soprano)?

[DirtyGoldMan]

Way of the Numismatic world? What about the guy ATS who sent out the $2000 coin on approval and the buyer passed sending it back insured for what $300 and USPS lost it. How did that turn out? Wondering if that thread still there.

 

Nice attempt at deflection, but again what is the legal recourse (expensive attorney fees?) in the event the potential seller does not return the approval coin? Without a formal contract, I wonder if this would be essentially unsecured debt (probably uncollectible).

What does that bizarro deal ATS have to do with anything. If someone I don't know has a bad deal with someone else I don't know, why should I care?

 

90% of the coins I buy are on approval, and 90% of the collectors I know also receive coins on approval. It's a great tool for sellers, more so than buyers.

[MarkFeld]

Way of the Numismatic world? What about the guy ATS who sent out the $2000 coin on approval and the buyer passed sending it back insured for what $300 and USPS lost it. How did that turn out? Wondering if that thread still there.

 

Nice attempt at deflection, but again what is the legal recourse (expensive attorney fees?) in the event the potential seller does not return the approval coin? Without a formal contract, I wonder if this would be essentially unsecured debt (probably uncollectible). I mean you proably could not even ding this guy on his credit rating - refer it to Tony (Soprano)?

 

RYK didn't deflect anything. He answered two of your questions, quite well and accurately.

 

My "legal recourse" would be to attempt to get my coin back, by whatever legal means I thought appropriate - if the customer kept it without paying, he would be guilty of mail fraud and conversion, among other things.

 

The thread you referenced merely illustrates that some transactions go bad. That was no news flash.

 

The very large majority of my sales to collectors are on approval basis (to established customers who have provided suitable references). I have been in business for a long time, and have yet to be stung by treating collectors in this fashion.

 

One person tried to rip me off for about $3000 in coins I had sent to him on approval. By the time I got through with him, he paid me what he owed me and pleaded with me to call off the detective who had paid him a visit.

 

You don't seem to understand that there are perfectly fine ways of doing business, other than the way you choose to operate yours.

 

 

[PerryHall]

If a customer receives a coin on approval and doesn't return it, is there some kind of dealer data base listing dishonest individuals so that other dealers don't get taken? I'm sure there is word of mouth communication but that isn't very efficient.