JKK

The color. Doesn't mean that it was deliberately cleaned, just that it has the look of a cleaned coin and would be viewed as such. It looks like it once colored up to the natural hue, then somehow had that natural patina removed. How it happened, I can't say.

I don't see any patina that looks natural to me (taking the photo coloration at face value). I see a well worn but not much damaged IHP that is bright in some of the wrong places, and where even the patina looks like what you'd get if you whizzed the coin and then parts of it had opportunity to tone up more than others. If you'd like a study portion to examine, take a look at the shield on the reverse. Half of it is that unnatural darkened color, half is brightened on high points and low. I struggle with figuring out a natural way it could get that way.
I can't say for absolute certain what happened to the coin, but it doesn't look naturally aged. Anything worn that flat should typically be a nice deep chocolate brown all over, because to wear that flat, it had to see a lot of circulation. One thing I find helpful is to try and imagine a legit way the coin could get to the state in which we see it. How would a copper coin get worn down that much, yet preserve original copper brightness? Stretches credibility. But if it were at least once cleaned, then fell behind a seat and was partly in contact with something like an old paper towel or what have you, maybe that happened. I just don't see a legit wear scenario. If anyone can imagine one, by all means propose it. Maybe I've whiffed on something.

There's a thing with Mensa scores, sort of like Godwin's Law before real life repealed it. To drop refs to one's Mensaness leans in the direction of belying them. Put another way, if the scores were that high, one wouldn't need to drop references. The reality would speak for itself. Whatever the intent, the actual message received is something like: "I'm aware I'm not looking too smart here, so let me try and counter that perception a little."
It never works. Tell is cheap, show is powerful. This is something I'd think most people with Mensa scores could have used those prodigious intellects to discover.

There's a thing with Mensa scores, sort of like Godwin's Law before real life repealed it. To drop refs to one's Mensaness leans in the direction of belying them. Put another way, if the scores were that high, one wouldn't need to drop references. The reality would speak for itself. Whatever the intent, the actual message received is something like: "I'm aware I'm not looking too smart here, so let me try and counter that perception a little."
It never works. Tell is cheap, show is powerful. This is something I'd think most people with Mensa scores could have used those prodigious intellects to discover.

Either take my word, or send it in for professional grading. If you think it might be worth $60K, it's well worth getting graded since absolutely nobody with any sense will buy it except in a professional grading slab.
If you're looking for me to tell you how I know it's phony, the answer is "not happening."

Either take my word, or send it in for professional grading. If you think it might be worth $60K, it's well worth getting graded since absolutely nobody with any sense will buy it except in a professional grading slab.
If you're looking for me to tell you how I know it's phony, the answer is "not happening."

That counterfeiter is making serious bank, in that case. Must be offshore, because the Treasury doesn't think counterfeiting US coinage is very funny.

That depends on what the counterfeiter sold it for. It's worth about that much. A search on "counterfeit 1796 US dollar" should be helpful.

When you post a question about a coin or coins, it's worth remembering that the people giving you answers--unless it is specifically about an NGC policy matter or submission--are volunteer hobbyists who do this for fun. They are not speaking for NGC; they speak only for themselves, and they want to help people. When you do a good job of posting your inquiry, you increase your chances of helpful replies, because you show respect for the volunteers' time.
Please do:
Ask a question, or multiple questions. We need to know what to focus on. Authenticity? Grade? Identification? Value? All of these? Think about your questions. "What would this grade at NGC?" and "What grade would you give this coin?" are two very different questions. If you ask the first one, only people who know a lot about NGC's ways have much to offer you. "How much is this worth?" is another nebulous question. Better: "What would a dealer pay me for this?" Or: "What would a dealer sell this for?" Post clear photos of the entire obverse, reverse, and if necessary the edge. If need be, add zoomed photos of specific features, but always clear shots of both full sides. Post all pictures of a given coin in the same thread. Accept that if you have photographic limitations, and you keep posting badly photographed coins, you'll keep being told they're not good enough to use to answer your question. You can't expect everyone to read all your threads and know your circumstances, be they poverty or Parkinson's or can'tbebothereditis. It's not their fault your photos can't or won't get better, even if it is also not always your own fault. Use a thread title that describes the coin(s), so that people who know the subject matter are likelier to read the thread. If you just inherited Bampaw's silver dollar collection which you can see spans the period 1850-1921, you could title it "Evaluating silver dollar collection 1850-1921." People who know a lot about those silver dollars will see it and be likely to help you. "Grading advice" is bad; everyone wants grading advice. "Morgan dollar grading advice" is good. "Is this fake?" is bad. "Is this Chinese silver coin fake?" is good. Post only once per coin. (If you have received a huge collection, and you want to start with a picture of the whole hoard with zoomed shots of parts, that's no problem. This guideline is intended to keep people from slamming multiple fully photographed coins into a single thread, making it difficult to figure out which one the answers are talking about. So if it's a hoard, and you single out some for close scrutiny, go with new threads for each of those.) If the picture files are too large in terms of data, learn to make them smaller without losing necessary information. Paint.net is a free image editor for Windows. Open your pictures in it, crop them, and save them as .jpgs. Look at what sizes they are now. This is too easy. If there is any question of identification or authentication, include weight in grams and diameter in millimeters. If you don't know the metric system, use an online converter. Weight is one of the key diagnostics of authenticity and unless the coin is too obviously bogus to bother, you will be asked for it. Just include it with your first post. Tell us what you know, or what you believe to be the case, about the coin. It's okay to be incorrect. Understand that the term "melt" does not automatically mean someone plans to melt the coin down, nor is anyone suggesting you should. It refers simply to the value of the metal for its own sake. Do not freak out when someone says "melt" about Bampaw's Morgan dollars. We really do not want or expect you to throw it in a blast furnace, all right? Use punctuation. Being easy to read works to your benefit. When you write a twelve-line paragraph with no periods or commas, people tune you out. For those who need reminders, this , is a comma. You use it to separate phrases, more or less. This . is a period. You use it to end most sentences. Hitting Enter will insert a paragraph break. You use this between series of thoughts. Live them. Love them. Use them. because ill tell u what really suxors is when some1 posts sententses like this 1 4 about half a page its impossibel 2 read and some people including me will prob not finish readin it which means u arent gettin as many respontses think about it ur only hurtin ur own cozz notice how stooped this reads ur in affect makin urself ten times harder 2 help and frankly its disrespectfull 2 assume entellegent people should do all that extra work 4 ur sake now kinely clean up ur act and rite like u at least got thru 6ixth grade im glad we had this little talk Come prepared to accept responsive answers. Brace yourself to learn that Bampaw or Opa, always considered the family's Great Numismatist, may not have been so great at this. No one seeks to offend your relative's legacy, but the coin must be called what it is. Be patient. No one who doesn't know the answer is going to post "I don't know." It can take days to a week for someone to notice. Remember that some inquiries may require research, for which volunteers are not being paid, and are doing as they have time. Expect that opinions may vary, even among experienced numismatists. Realize that if you're rude and/or difficult, your problem is not the people who take time to fight with you. Your problem is the people who, without a word, mark you down as someone not to bother with in the future--because you have no idea who or how many they are, and thus have no power to alleviate that diagnosis. Kindly do not:
Just post pictures without giving any indication of what you want to learn. Post glare-obscured, blurry, or otherwise poor photos. Post only partial pictures of errors or damage. Complain that your pics are too big to post. Use an image editor to crop and save them as .jpgs. Get defensive when told your pics are not good. Maybe you're bad at photography; maybe you don't have a good camera; maybe the photography gods just don't like you. If you can do better, do so. If you cannot do better, than just accept that this limits how much we can help you. Post a new thread for every photo of the same coin. Post new threads in the same forum, or other forums, with reference to the same coin. Once suffices. The shotgun approach makes one look impatient and immature. Use a meaningless thread title like "looking for advice" or "no idea what 2 do" or "plz help." Those tell people nothing about the discussion except that it was begun by someone who picks meaningless thread titles. Omit weight and diameter, unless they are completely irrelevant to your question. Get annoyed if you don't like the answers. If you disagree with them, fine; act on your views. Ask us to tell you how we know it's a counterfeit. While that's a legit question on its face, the problem is that even if you didn't mint the fake, those who make them are always looking for ways to improve. We frown upon supplying helpful feedback to criminals, and so should you. So no, don't ask us that. And if we tell you politely that we aren't going into detail, don't get annoyed because you don't like that answer. Grouse about not getting any replies. No one knows everything; no one has unlimited time; sometimes no one knows the answer. Come in telling how many Youtube videos you have watched about coins. This will lower your credibility. Use Photobucket links. If you do, don't anticipate that people will use them. Photobucket has been connected with numerous malware and virus infections. Spell 'nickel' as 'nickle.' Whether referring to the element or the five-cent coin, this misspelling is a very bad look. If you take the time to do this correctly, you can learn a lot more here than if you skip important steps.
If you do not take the time to do this correctly, some posters may decide that their time is better spent helping other people.
Lastly, here is a Cliff's Notes version that would take care of 95% of the most common disappointed inquiries. If you want to post yours anyway, fine, but just please kindly do not engage in a protracted and dullard debate when you are told that:
Your 1804 silver dollar is a bad counterfeit. Look up authentic examples and compare closely. Your 1776 Continental dollar is a bad counterfeit or a souvenir replica. Many were churned out. What you think is a double die is almost surely mechanical doubling, which carries no premium. What you think is a mint error is likely post-mint damage, and your coin is worth face value. Your "silver" non-1943 penny is plated, replated, has had the plating come off, is altered, or somesuch. Your "bronze" 1943 penny is altered somehow, and is worth very little. Your Greek "silver" coin with flanges sticking out of its edges is a bad cast counterfeit. Your cheesy-looking brass token is not gold, and is not a coin. Any clown can mint brass tokens with bad designs. Cleaning your coins is a stupid idea. Yes, even for you. You, too. If you ask how, listen to the people who tell you not to do so. If you cite Etsy as an authority, people will laugh their heads off with good reason. This is horrible for your cred. If you cite a Youtube video as an authority, people will laugh with good reason. This is bad for your cred. If you have more than three supposed error coins you found in change, and plan to post them all, the odds are overwhelming that none of them are mint errors worthy of note. If you keep posting these without seeming to learn, people might conclude that learning is not your thing. There, that rounds up the usual suspects. I'm not saying those answers are automatically always right. However, as the strongest probabilities, they should be presumed correct unless they can be proven wrong. If you have one child and something is broken in the house, not by you or your spouse, typically the child did it. If you can prove the kid innocent, fair enough; but you know the kid almost surely did it. If you argue about a "double die" at fatuous length when it's clear you don't know what one really is, you will look like the kid with soot all over him insisting he didn't really dig around in the fireplace.
Don't be that kid.
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Opinions, comments, additions, suggestions?

Ragequits happen.

Good. In the end, I believe that one should collect the coins one likes. Monetary value need not be the only concern, or even a concern.

We can see a few things:
The coin is so badly gouged that the how and when are not very important. It's just a normal memorial reverse cent subjected to serious indentation, perhaps used as a shim.
The date is definitely 1959, 1969, or 1979, though that doesn't have any impact on value or collectability.
There isn't evidence to believe it was countermarked (one of the terms for a deliberate post-mint marking or stamping). I don't see any, at least. The main evidence I see is that this poor humble penny has had the *spoon* kicked out of it, with heavy abrasion as well as gouging/indentations.

Then be *spooned* off. I wouldn't dream of trying to talk you out of it. *Spooned* off is a feeling, and if it's your feeling, it's valid to you. Just be prepared for the world to tell you to get over your feelings, because you know how that can happen.
People's coin interests begin in many different ways. Many people don't have tons of money to spend on Real Collectible Rarities. The best they can do is to hunt through coin rolls and junk bins. Maybe that's fun for them. Maybe they do it in hopes of learning on cheap coins so that when they can afford nicer and rarer ones, they will have a body of understanding. We don't know their overall motives or circumstances. Some of us decline to care what those are. Caring can get one feeling *spooned* off.
Before declaring interest in a coin, most people won't consult you or I to see if their interest has begun with a valid coin. That's fair, though, because neither you nor I are required by law to respond to them. If I determine, in my sole judgment, that a poster is being pushy or stupid or selfish or otherwise irritating, I don't answer their questions. I say nothing to them. They have a problem; I don't have a problem. They need to own their own problem.
I choose not to own their problem. I spend less time *spooned* off and more time diverting my efforts to people who do not annoy me. And my life is better for it.

That's vunderbar. I respect that you admit that social skills were not a priority in your upbringing. Neither were they in mine, and I'm half German myself. For myself, I'm glad I took time to try and develop some in adulthood, because the world is full of people it profits no one to alienate. I want to make sure that when I alienate someone, they absolutely need, demand, and require to be alienated with a mighty alienating.
And if you think it's too late to reform your personal style, the advantage there is that you are 100% correct. Not objectively, but because you are committed to not reforming it. If I refuse to quit cigars because I'm too old to quit, I'm likewise right.

Then be *spooned* off. I wouldn't dream of trying to talk you out of it. *Spooned* off is a feeling, and if it's your feeling, it's valid to you. Just be prepared for the world to tell you to get over your feelings, because you know how that can happen.
People's coin interests begin in many different ways. Many people don't have tons of money to spend on Real Collectible Rarities. The best they can do is to hunt through coin rolls and junk bins. Maybe that's fun for them. Maybe they do it in hopes of learning on cheap coins so that when they can afford nicer and rarer ones, they will have a body of understanding. We don't know their overall motives or circumstances. Some of us decline to care what those are. Caring can get one feeling *spooned* off.
Before declaring interest in a coin, most people won't consult you or I to see if their interest has begun with a valid coin. That's fair, though, because neither you nor I are required by law to respond to them. If I determine, in my sole judgment, that a poster is being pushy or stupid or selfish or otherwise irritating, I don't answer their questions. I say nothing to them. They have a problem; I don't have a problem. They need to own their own problem.
I choose not to own their problem. I spend less time *spooned* off and more time diverting my efforts to people who do not annoy me. And my life is better for it.

I consider a new coin collector, although I helped my dad with them back in the 60s.  A lot of new people ask thing that you think they should know, thought that is what a newbie forum would be about. I am real sorry @VKurtB that we don't have the knowledge of coins that you do and try to get answers here. Thanks to people like @Greenstang, @JKK, @Revenant, and @Just Bob, we are learning. You don't have to say anything that make us look dumb. that only hurts the whole coin collecting experience. I'm Glad you have your knowledge because your people skills leave a lot to be desired.

I am a first timer to this site and a newbie to coin collecting but I've always tried to do my own research on things before asking questions which lead me to this thread. I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write out the does and don'ts of inquiring about a coin I read this entire thread and have learned not just about that but a little about tokens as well lol. I just thought id let you know if nothing else you helped out at least one newbie by posting your thread! Thanks again and thanks to all the knowledgeable collectors out there taking time out to help new collectors.

Browsing through old mint records can be fun. "I have this coin. It's perfect! How much is it worth? Where can I sell it?"
Such a familiar topic, from 120 years ago, it made me chuckle.

It's trolling. Long as it keeps drawing replies, the OP will keep doing it. He changed his handle from collectorwhateveritwas to this because that one had become too toxic and was getting fully ignored, so now he's drawing all the attention again at will.

It's trolling. Long as it keeps drawing replies, the OP will keep doing it. He changed his handle from collectorwhateveritwas to this because that one had become too toxic and was getting fully ignored, so now he's drawing all the attention again at will.

It's trolling. Long as it keeps drawing replies, the OP will keep doing it. He changed his handle from collectorwhateveritwas to this because that one had become too toxic and was getting fully ignored, so now he's drawing all the attention again at will.

It's trolling. Long as it keeps drawing replies, the OP will keep doing it. He changed his handle from collectorwhateveritwas to this because that one had become too toxic and was getting fully ignored, so now he's drawing all the attention again at will.

Y'all win. I won't be back. I hope you are happy. Shameful, the whole lot of you.

I hope you can return them then.
You do know that there were only about 47,000 of the 1815 half's minted and a genuine one runs into the high 4 figures, so nobody is going to sell one for considerably less unless it was counterfeit.
I just noticed that you submitted the same post under NGC Journals. It is only necessary to post it once. The answer is not going to change by posting it twice.

I don't think it has anything to do with Probus. Looks to me like Gordian III, Nicaea in Bithynia, SGI 3671, AE 19 (perfect match to your diameter). Obv: M ANT ΓOPΔIANOC AV, radiate, draped bust right. Rev: NIKAEΩN, Four legionary standards, two inner ones topped with eagles, outer two topped with wreaths. A lot of the SGI 3671s out there seem to have three standards rather than four; seems to be considered a variant. Dates would be 238-244 CE. Greek provincial coins tend to throw people for a loop because they aren't found in the primary Roman references.
Take a look at this example for comparison.