JKK

On 2/1/2024 at 2:38 PM, Mskp223 said:

Well thank each and every one of you for crushing my hopes and dreams.... just kidding I really do appreciate yall for your knowledge its very inspiring and devastating in a way but I'm eager to learn so these counterfeits are a part of learning right

Dealers and some collectors call it tuition. One useful thing to absorb is which coins are most heavily counterfeited. Two main categories: those that circulated heavily in China, and those of high value.

On 1/31/2024 at 11:28 AM, Glynn K. said:

 

Also, here is a better pic of the teeny old coin.  One side only - the other side just isn't clear enough to photograph.  The coin looks just a tad concave too.  There were two in the acquisition but one is basically slick.  Here's what I wrote on the holder at the time I got them:

2 planchets acq 3/87 in 1 lb bag of coins.  design on one appears to be Mesopotamian (Iraq) or Turkey (mid 1800's) 12 mm

I kind of wonder if it even has anything struck on the other side.  The darn thing is so thin I don't see how it could possibly have something struck on both sides, and the blurry side my just the negative of the non-blurry side.

Off hand, it doesn't look Ottoman to me. The typical Ottoman coin had a toughra (sultanic sigil) on the obverse and mostly writing on the reverse. An Ottoman toughra (say TUG-ra but sort of gargle the G; this is an actual letter in the Arabic alphabet, same one everyone screws up in 'Baghdad' and 'Benghazi') looks very much like, how to describe it...like a dancer in a big flowing dress suddenly whirling. It's all writing. I had a glance through Krause 1800s and those Iraqi coins that don't have a toughra have (interestingly) a Star of David, or at least what I would call one. Whether the locals would call it that, then or now, is dubious.

Not an error. Delamination due to serious environmental damage. Even if there were good reason to think it left the mint delaminated, which is not impossible, the rest of the damage indicates that the cladding probably came off in whatever did that. Edges look a bit like a dryer coin.

On 1/28/2024 at 10:44 AM, Glynn K. said:

edited to add - pretty crummy pics now that I look at the post.  Maybe I didn't learn photography as well as I thought!

It's not that the pics are crummy; it's that they are too tiny to get anywhere with. Need to be blown up--then I might be able to tell you something.

On 1/24/2024 at 8:11 AM, Glynn K. said:

 

Not really into ancients much, but I do have a few.  I pretty much have to take the word of the seller as to what it is, but usually they're cheap enough I can't go too wrong.  I did get a really thin, ancient looking thing in a bag of coins once.  If I find it, I might post a pic of it.  It appears to me to be silver but it is incredibly thin for an ancient coin.  Though it looks crudely made enough to qualify.  And has an aura of "age" about it.

Off topic, but Portland used to be a great place.  Is it really as bad now as some make it out to be?  'Course I assumed Oregon, but there's lots of Portlands.

I'll get a caliper.  A man can't have too many toys.

Your ancient is probably, from the description, an Umayyad dirham. Perhaps a Sassanian. Both of those are silver and pretty thin.

Portland, metro area, is a city of some 3.5 million. I live in the western burbs. If you mean the downtown, it's somewhat lived down to becoming what this country boy always considered it: a zoo, but said country boy just doesn't find downtowns vibrant or exciting or fun. He goes there when he must and gets the hell out as soon as he can. Most of the metro area is fine, but you can find patches of tent cities, garbalanches, and krapp. The Max is a lot worse nowadays; wife rides it to and from downtown daily, and she can see people doing fentanyl right across the aisle. 95% of Portland is the same as it ever was, but a lot of businesses have fled downtown and I can see why.

The drug decriminalization simply didn't work, like everything that state, county, and municipal governments do in Oregon. This is the worst governed place I have ever lived in, and I used to live in Boise. The PPB are still throwing a quiet-quit pout over the fact that people actually called them to account for fascist tactics, so that doesn't help. We got a bad national rap because a tiny area of downtown saw nightly tear gas and protest combat, and everyone I knew called me to ask if my street was burning. No, I said, and neither is anywhere else unless you wait until evening to go to the courthouse area and insert yourself between the factions.

On 1/25/2024 at 7:18 AM, Midwest Dozer said:

those marks you are seeing on the coin are die marks. maybe where they touched up the die from striking or maybe those marks are from a brand new die pair never the less. NGC is the most pickiest grading company out their and if the two or three people that grade these coins thought for a second it was cleaned it would not even be in this holder.. it wouldn't even have a grade.  

"Die marks?" Not only do you have a lot to do in order to stop seeing rudeness when none is offered, but you also could benefit from some better understanding of terminology. If you mean die polishing lines (those are not), then it's fine to say so (provided you know what you're saying). You can say "cleaned" in a sentence all you want, but if you are incorrect, people will correct you. There is no fundamental right not to be called out on errors in description.

As for the 49-S Frank that was posted, while I am not a worshipper of grading services, the fact that NGC slabbed it clean as 67+ tells me that whatever those discolorations are, they aren't from cleaning--you're right, at least, on that aspect. What they are, I can't say from the pics, but I agree on what they are not. I'd take that grade and stand pat on it--and I agree with others that this would not benefit from NCS "conservation." (I'm among the cynics about that part. I'm not supposed to be, but I've never been much vulnerable to peer pressure.)

Too bad you aren't near Portland. It often feels like half our presentations are about tokens of some sort, which put me to sleep but are a legit subject and I respect the presenters' efforts enough to stifle my yawns. You'd be in heaven.

Would have liked to take a look at your denarius. I could probably have told you whether it was of Tiberius.

For measuring microtads, a digital caliper is pretty inexpensive. Just make sure to get one with metric gradations and display, because the coin world speaks metric except when it comes to bullion weights.

Deleted. Never give me the power to ban thread necromancers unless one wants a bunch of people tossed.

On 1/22/2024 at 5:26 AM, Rob’s Coins said:

Wow, thank you for your procedure!  Much appreciated!  
 

OK NGC team, hear me out, I would like a service to send in a Mint set for say $25 - $30 and have your professionals do this and send me back my coins in capsules ungraded.  Then work with a reputable coin album company to ensure the capsules you use will fit nicely in the album I purchase from you.

I don't think they offer that service, and especially not for that price. I suppose you could hire a professional numismatist, but you aren't getting that service for that price from anyone qualified to do it. The reason we do a lot of things ourselves in this hobby, and learn to do so, is partly because we'd rather buy coins than plastic but partly also because the services don't always exist or would be prohibitive.

On 1/21/2024 at 3:27 PM, Rob’s Coins said:

Hey JKk,  yeah, as a new person it’s hard to even formulate my thought correctly on what I’m trying to achieve.  I know when I sometimes ask what I think is a simple question and make a statement about PF-70.  You guys with 50 years experience have minds that are computing 120 variables looking for the most logical and best outcome for the coins.  I’m sticking with my proof silver 1oz coins for now.  Every time I try to dip my toes into what I think would be easier… small cents with large mintage figures, I seem to get sidetracked and thrown sideways.  They are just so “blah” in those mint set holders.  But that is where they will stay for now.  

I get it--it's hard to keep track of everything, and some of the responses can conflict. But that's why we're doing this: It allows you to get help collecting coins, preserving them, and displaying them. We most of us grew up with Whitman albums, maybe with Dansco slider albums, and in youth we were just filling up the pennies and Jeffs. Then we grew up, got jobs, in some cases took long breaks from the hobby, and returned to it. Our appetites shifted, and we learned that a Whitman album (for example) is fine for circulated cents but not so fine for MS-65 09-VDBs. We adapted.

There are archival grade holders for proof and mint sets, if you don't like the mint packaging or if you determine that it's from a time before the mint realized that its packaging would cause harm in the long term. Both fair reasons. But the process of getting the coins from cellophane to holders--with proofs and uncs, that's the rub. So now that we've told you how to do it wrong, here's a way you could do it right. Note that this won't help you album proof or unc coins because doing so is damaging, but it will let you display your stuff in a way you might like.

Imagine you've got a proof set in mint cellophane. You should have pliers, scissors, a clean cloth such as a brand new washcloth (I can think of reasons to consider other surfaces, but that's what I've used), a box cutter or small penknife, plastic coin tongs, disposable linen gloves, and if it's easier, what I call leprechaun condoms: fingertip covers that look like dinky little balloons. None of that is expensive.

• Shop for the type of holder that you find most aesthetically appealing that has the right spaces for the set you want to display. If you want to create an insert, make that before you begin any of this.
• Open the new holder if necessary. Be gentle. Lay it out on the clean cloth and determine which side is the one you want to be the reverse.
• Put the linen gloves on. From here on out you will be very, very careful what you touch with those.
• Lay the set on the cloth and cut away enough of the penny's cellophane that you can get at it with the coin tongs; the reason you are wearing the gloves is what if you drop the coin on the cloth and need to pick it up, or something else occurs that you must guide it more finely? In the middle of the operation is not a good time to have to adjust without proper preparation.
• Tong the penny out, getting just enough purchase on it to keep hold. Do everything over the cloth, just in case you drop it. It happens.
• Lay the penny in its holder niche, gently, as close to proper orientation as possible. You would rather not have to nudge-rotate it with the tongs. The coins have an annoying way of landing in the niches ever so slightly out of alignment.
• Do the same for the nickel, taking all the same care, and for the rest of the coins. You will be preventing them from being touched with human hands, and ideally by not dropping them on the cloth will avoid picking up a fiber.
• Once you are pleased with the coins' alignment, gazing beautifully up at you from their holder, you can take off the gloves. Lay the holder's other half on top of it, carefully oriented. Most holders sort of snap together with plastic tongues going into slots. You cannot imagine how easy it is to crack these damned things, so be very careful. Gently press them together, hoping for a good tight seal, ideally with just your hands.
• If it's stubborn, now some fun begins. Triple up the gloves to pad where you will squeeze with the pliers, and very gently attempt to close the connections with light pressure. Periodically look to see where the halves are not quite tightened together and work gently. Take your time, because if you break the clear plastic you will need to live with it or go through all this again with a new holder.

If you were gentle and patient, and didn't f-bomb it up (ask me how I learned this), and if the holder was well made, you will eventually have your proof coins in a beautiful display well protected from everything but airborne contaminants. I've never heard of people doing this, but I suppose that a very fine line of adhesive gently pressed into the juncture around 100% of the seam would seal it hermetically if done with precision. Why the knife? In case for whatever reason you find you must pry it back open. It happens.

Or you could just leave them in the mint packing until you're psychologically ready to tackle the process. When the time comes, start with a very recent set of the kind that are dirt cheap and even commoner than dirt, the ones that coin dealers can barely give away (they have two dozen from each year of the 1990s sitting in back of the shop) and that everyone's Bampaw thought would be Very Valuable. Most of them can be had for less than five bucks. Practice makes perfect. It helps a lot if you've gone through the ritual once or twice. Like the proper tools, cheap protection/insurance.

On 1/21/2024 at 1:40 PM, Rob’s Coins said:

That it sound advise.  Starting to get a little frustrated there….  I feel if they can authenticate a Roman coin in the ground for 1000 years, something tells me they could authenticate a penny without the original plastic and glue that will likely crumble in 200 years.   I also find it interesting how a lot of people are all about the toning.  I bought some older proof sets.  1950’s.  No, I didn’t break them out.  But also no toning.  Confusing hobby at times.  Trying to learn the rules.

It's not about authentication. If I may speak bluntly, as a specialist in those same Roman coins you mention, nearly none of the modern stuff is worth counterfeiting. It is about how well the coins are protected from mishandling. What you described earlier translated to me as: "Hi. I plan to mishandle these coins and have zero idea what I'm doing. What do you suggest?" If you were in my place, seeing it as I see it, I suggest you'd say: "First, please don't mishandle them"--much as I did.

Now. If they come encased in archival grade plastic that you have an album that will handle, great; go for it. But when you talked about PR-70s, and described actions that could be guaranteed to make that grade impossible, that told me that your greatest need was serious help understanding how best to safeguard and store your coins. And since you have gotten plenty, you should now be well equipped to decide what to do--whether that's to just f-bomb them up by putting them in slider albums, or develop a better solution. In the end they are your coins, to preserve or damage as you choose.

Side note: the standard for PR-69 involves (among other specs) a full strike, unimpaired and gorgeous fully original luster, beautiful eye appeal, and one tiny flaw that it takes a 5x loupe to spot. For PR-70, it's similar except that even with that loupe you can't spot one tiny flaw. That would make it a perfect coin. You could see, then, why my reaction would be along the lines of: "Well, won't have to worry about any PR-70s coming out of these--at least not once they're out and have been shoved into albums."

If you break open mint sets and put them in an album, you just about might as well spend the coins. They will no longer be uncirculated, and if proofs, will immediately become impaired proofs. You won't have to worry about any PF-70s at all because the mishandling will assure you never have a chance of obtaining that grade. It's like moving to LA hoping to date a starlet without bathing--no need to worry about how you dress, as it's not going to happen from the go. All the people who know how to get them safely into albums know not to do that.

My suggestion is you don't break up any mint sets until you develop improved handling methods. Albums are not for uncirculated coins.

There are a lot of different ways to collect. Most US-based collectors start with US coins, naturally, and some never tire of those. I didn't get rid of my US collection, but neither am I adding much to it; I branched into world coins, then ancients and the Islamic world. Some people (including about half my club) mainly collect tokens. Or medals, or errors, etc. Since it's a hobby and we do it for fun, whatever is fun for you, you should do.

I would say half of the new posters here have found damaged crapola that they consider to be Rare Mint Errors on which they will Make Bank. About a quarter are dealing with Bampaw's Collection, Bampaw having passed away bequeathing a large hoard of assorted, mishandled stuff that everyone in the family assumes will be Worth Thousands. Actual real collectors of coins of actual real value or interest, not so common. So welcome.

And small digital scales are very affordable, and well worth your money. You don't need to depend on jewelers for accurate weight measurement.

Nice AU penny. Worth 1c. Not worth any attention.

On 1/19/2024 at 4:47 AM, edhalbrook said:

I don't get what is good about it. A good strike coin I assume. I being a beginner would have tossed it in with my junk coins. Trying to figure out what makes a dime good. Or better then good. 

Read the grading standards for Rosies. They will tell you which areas tend to wear first. Those high points, especially toward the middle of the coin, will be the ones that are harder to strike up and might have weaker strikes; they are also the points of wear. Find an AU dime and use magnification, however much you need, simply to study what wear looks like and where it begins. You don't grade with magnification, but you can use it to learn.

Yes, but it's indentation by way of a kid, a hammer, and one of his dad's punches.

I think not.

Because they are toned, but well struck and without wear. It was evidently determined that they have full original mint luster, which hopefully you understand doesn't mean the same as what the world's semiliterates call "shinny" and what people with junior high or better educations call "shiny."

On 1/17/2024 at 8:25 AM, capt merry said:

thank you for the feed back, all the seller said is look at the photos which tells me he believes something is wrong and possibly this is counterfeit.  I am not to seasoned but the price was to low for this condition and date.  Not to mention the description was to vague.  

warning to others I suppose. thank you again

 

What do you bet he got taken in by someone else who wouldn't accept a return and is now trying to get his tuition back?

On 1/16/2024 at 1:27 AM, Mooney49 said:

I have coins that are totally uncirculated but am being told they are not even MS. In some other pics I can see DDO, but am i still getting it wrong? Is it worth sending in to get graded? After visit with local coin shop, I am still way off on grading. lol! Question is referring to the red. Thank you

 

The simple fact of not posting both sides of the coin makes me think you realize deep down that it's not worth sending in. Otherwise you'd provide the necessary images for people to evaluate. If you are told they are not MS, then you should ask where those saying so see the wear. If you imagine that you see doubled dies (not all of them are of the obverse!), you are almost certainly seeing mechanical doubling, which is very common and adds no value.

If doubled dies and pennies that could gain $50 in value by having them slabbed were as common as people suppose (until they get the ice bath of reality I just gave you), it stands to reason that they would glut the market and be worth nearly nothing.

On 1/14/2024 at 1:51 AM, cobymordet said:

JKK, what is nic-a-lening, I am not familiar with that.

 

It's using a ferric chloride solution to restore the date. The apathetic and/or stupid method only sees the date briefly. The conscientious and sensible way leaves it fully revealed for the future.

As a dealer, I'd pay you about 1.1 cents per wheatie. I would assume they were fully picked over. For the no-date Buffs, I'd pay 6c each. There are people who enjoy Nic-a-lening those, though most of the people who do it lack the patience, precision, or intellect to do it correctly.

But before I did, I'd point out to you that interest was low, that marketability was low, that what I would pay was what they were worth wholesale to me, and that they were more than welcome to seek a better offer. And I'd be hoping they took that advice.

Not an error. Mike's correct: mutilated coin with no collector value. You might even have a hard time passing it off as a dime in some situations.

Not special. Not a DDR.