JKK

It's also true that if one likes damaged coins, one doesn't need to check one's change. One can damage them oneself, and thus use it as a form of creative expression.

On 5/18/2024 at 3:10 PM, EGH49 said:

Thanks for the quick replies.  

JKK.  How do you really feel about cleaning coins? 

 I've read that admonition  so many times,  that's why I was so conflicted - just wanted some clarification.  Never fear.  I was only thinking of using the acetone on coins low on value but high on dirt like heavily traveled LMCs.  When I do, I will certainly follow Coinbuf's good tips.

Other than that I will not clean my coins. 

Thanks again.

Good. I haven't yet read you describing a logical reason to clean them. Now, if they were covered in PVC slime, that would be a reason. If they were otherwise illegible, that would be a reason.

Please understand that we get waves of people coming here thinking that coins need to be "shinny" (most of them are semiliterate) and that if they're tarnished somehow, well, let's just shine 'em up a little. I do not, at start, know any differently about anyone whose first question entails cleaning, so the first step is to tell them not to f-bomb their coins up with cleaning. They can always f-bomb them up later once they know they are about to f-bomb them up and refuse to refrain from that, and there's nothing I can do to stop that. But we still try, and now and then we get someone's attention.

Don't clean your coins.

If you have any questions about that, don't clean your coins.

While you are thinking about and evaluating them, don't clean your coins.

Hope that's helpful.

You might have a hard time finding that sweet spot. I don't know what they cost, and in fact I don't even know much about how they work, but I think mostly dealers have them. This would indicate that ones worth having are major capital investments they expect to recoup in avoidance of buying phonies, assay capacity, and so on. Most collectors have basic scales and many have calipers and microscopes (and yes, they do have value provided they are not used for foolish purposes), but I think very very few have metal analysis equipment.

On 5/15/2024 at 11:42 AM, tulloa said:

I mean, don’t you have to have your coins certified before you sell them?

No, you don't. You can sell them to whoever wants to buy them (this one would bring 25c). Certification matters mainly to people who prefer it, primarily those who collect coins that are commonly counterfeited or altered, or to certify that a given variety or error is present.

Before someone spends $40-60 to have a coin certified, one should consider whether it's even worth 10% of that amount. In most cases it is not. I get that, for new collectors, having coins graded and slabbed feels like "doing it right." It isn't, at least not automatically. One should ask oneself just how much really cool stuff one could get for $40-60, and that'll usually answer the question.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:51 PM, Praneet sadana said:

Thanks, what you think the value should be ungraded like this? 

Retail could be anywhere between about $150 and maybe $250, just guessing. Dealer probably pays half of one of those figures or one in between. A lot depends on whether the flattening is strike weakness or wear.

That's a nice one, with what seem like planchet defects not related to PMD. Interesting color and toning, pretty flow lines, not sure it's even circulated as the flat spots on the high points might well be strike weakness. It might get MS-62 or so if the grading people think the way I'm thinking; if not, probably AU-55. Much nicer than mine, which is EF scratched and quite clearly circulated.

Start by assuming they are all circulation marks. That is the automatic presumption and the challenge, the burden is to prove that such a mark somehow happened at a mint.

To use a judicial analogy, assume that the prosecution has video conclusively identifying the accused in the act of committing the crime, and that your task is to prove the accused innocent. That's how skewed it is. If you do that, you will be looking at this sensibly and will not be starting out with false hope, but with healthy skepticism. That's the best help I can offer you.

On 5/12/2024 at 10:20 PM, piggymeu said:

dam I give up 

Depends what you're giving up on.

If it's finding rare doubled dies in change, let's put it this way: The likelihood of finding those is remote enough that giving up is reasonable.

If it's coins as a whole, I'd hold up on that. There is a lot in the coin world that is fun and interesting. It is very diverse. For example, we've got one person here who mainly collects French gold pieces. We have token enthusiasts. Me, I'm an ancients and Islamic world specialist with a broad interest in non-US coinage.

The good news is that many very interesting coins are very reasonably priced. Very few are going to show up in your change, but that doesn't mean they will be beyond your means. For example, one can have decent late Roman bronzes for $8-12 in many cases. You'd fall over in shock to find out how cheap German Imperial post-unification stuff can be. And if you want to collect something closer to home like Lincolns, there are only a few issues that are very spendy. Most aren't. Absent several rarities that'll take some money to finish, a nice circulated Linc set is a very worthy and affordable goal to shoot for. Roosevelts are even easier because, while the 1964 and before are silver and will always cost at least the current silver value, few issues are rare and there aren't as many as Lincolns simply because they showed up almost forty years later. There's a lot to discover and look forward to.

On 5/8/2024 at 7:53 AM, Coinbuf said:

@JKK that was an interesting read, however, did you see the op posted this in 2021.

I did. It's for the benefit of others, and perhaps to bring about discussion of general numismatic ethics. If it was dredged once, it'll be dredged again.

On 4/2/2021 at 1:01 PM, Bignubnumismatics said:

I am nearing the end of my high school days and have to start thinking about future careers. I am extremely passionate about numismatics, and I would love for my great hobby to be my career. I have been to the Summer Seminar (several times had it not been for this virus) and am in the middle of completing the ANA's Numismatic Diploma Program. Are there any tips or other actions I should take to make the dream become a reality? 

As you're about to shuck the Y from YN, I think this is pretty cool.

First decide how ethical you want to be. That might seem out of left field, but it's what will really determine your career trajectory. It is one thing to say immediately that you'll be at maximum ethics; it's another to carry that out when you realize that private collection sellers often have zero knowledge of their coins' value, aren't really checking with anyone else, and will accept any amount from you that seems sane even if a bit disappointing.

A suggested ethic to really carry this out is to look at how much knowledge the seller asserts. The more they do--if they look like they plan to negotiate hard and are at least purporting to be experienced--the less duty of fairness falls on you. If it's a person who obviously has zero knowledge, then this ethic doesn't require you to pay more than what is fair, but it does mean that you should pay no less even when you could. This will mean that the bad guys, on balance, will sometimes be able to undercut you at retail, because they will give someone $750 for Bampaw's collection when a fairer price would be $900. Integrity isn't free. Evil typically wins more than it loses, because evil ignores ethics and rules. The good guys don't always win, and our commercial society is set up to reward greed and punish integrity. That's just our society; love it or hate it, you're in it.

Another ethical question concerns condition and grading. Your typical dealer overgrades by about half to one and a half. Pariedolia? Greed? Inexperience? It varies. I know a great dealer in Boise who is a good guy in many ways, but you can mentally mark every coin he sells down by one grade, and I always bear that in mind. I at least will be able to get the coin from him for what I should pay, but a novice is taking a double hosing. My dealer in Kennewick, by contrast, is a little bit famous and the guy's grading and disclosures are unimpeachable. His shop is where you look at a flip and see a conservative grade plus something like "cleaned" or "damaged" stated right up front. He knows that if you state that up front, buyers are happier and more willing to pay what you're asking, but he's also just a hell of a vendor who hires good people. Bullets bounce off his rep.

I mention all this because this hobby is one where bad word gets around. Even though I am not prominent in any way, I can be in any coin shop in the Pacific Northwest for the first time, and odds are that they will take a paper check from me (especially if it's not like some huge amount). Who would do that, and why? They've never heard of me until that day. It's because I know folks they do know, like the dealer in Kennewick or my local ancients mentor; I'm in the local club and am familiar with its longtimers; I'm also not putting pressure on the dealer or making them nervous; if they prefer a credit card, I understand, just trying to save them the fee. They asked where I was from, and we traded enough names to satisfy them. The logic here is that because I do not have a bad reputation--word travels fast--no one who rolls with some fairly prominent people would be insufficiently_thoughtful_person enough to junk that whole rep for good over bouncing a $75 check. They'd hear about it, and I'd be avoided.

So. I think your first decision is to decide what kind of person you want to be. That'll affect the rest of your choices; the choice to go the less ethical route is one that would take a fair bit of your adult life to reverse, whereas the choice to go the more ethical route could be destroyed much more quickly. But if you do go the most ethical route, you are likely to attract the support and great word-of-mouth that can be provided by the good guys (local collectors likely to be regulars and who live by ethics). Once they see how you do business, they'll put some effort into helping you. You'll become one of them.

Up to you.

I always wonder at the audacity of this. In what universe do people imagine that it makes sense to post such a question without images that show what they're talking about? I have no problem with the fundamental question, just beggars all reason that we should somehow be able to answer that from a simple written description.

I get that photography is difficult and irritating. I loathe doing it. That's why I never do it unless I really, really care about the answer, and always on other forums that are more germane to my interests. But if you want it explained, and you won't show us what you want explained...nothing to be said or done but shake one's head.

Guys, is it as simple as that, that photography is hard and people are trying to get out of it if possible? I mean, that's what I'd be doing myself, if I were so out of touch with reality that I imagined anyone could help me without photography. As in, if I could get away with it--which no one can, least of all me.

On 5/7/2024 at 10:37 AM, Praneet sadana said:

Thanks. Will it effect the value? I think I paid like 30 dollar for it few years back. 

Nah. There are enough contact marks that I don't think this one rises to the level of damage. It's just a contact mark that happened to nail it right on the MM.

Good photos. Well done.
The zoomed photo makes me think the mint mark took an external impact after the mint. It's not rare for an uncirculated Morgan to get a contact mark that slams right into the mint mark.

Yes, it's Panamanian.

It's a valid question. The coin looks odd; color weird, stars muddy, level of detail on devices is not that consistent with the circulated look of the fields. I suppose the pro-authenticity stance would see the deformed UNUM as a PMD impact wound. However, what is on the back of UNUM is where the AR of 'dollar' is, if I'm mentally flipping the coin over properly. Normally it's pretty hard to hit a coin hard enough to mess it up without doing something to the reverse, kind of the way big meteor strikes on small planetoids can send an impact wave clear through them (Mercury has a huge one of these). So I'm really not sure which way to lean.

Depends which coin. Photos would help. For best results, please read the forum guidelines on photography. We can't help with anything we can't see.

We are not shown both sides, but if the reverse looks like the obverse, it's basically worth the copper value.

On 5/4/2024 at 8:16 PM, Duzzitmatter said:

Whoa calm down. Breath in Breath out. It's OK man I only did best I could

Sometimes you have to improve your best in order for people to be much help to you. There's this fact that we have to be able to see all of the coin clearly in order to diagnose the situation and in some cases explain the diagnosis.

We get that most people will not read the posting guidelines (why be bothered? those are for other people), but if they are then told that their photography is inadequate to a full diagnosis, they should assume that we have a reason for saying so. No one failed to be calm; someone simply told you the truth.

On 5/2/2024 at 7:42 PM, cobymordet said:

 

What is the legitimate site to purchase the Krause pdf files?

I bought mine some years back on Amazon, cost me about $35 each. You'd have to find used ones now. They are useless for price purposes but fantastic for text searching.

Can probably help you with the Ottoman when the time comes.

I am not sure how misc bin prices work in the Canadian market, but most of those coins would typically sell for US$0.20 or less down here. Not discouraging you from paying what they ask for what you want, just pointing out that down here we'd consider most of those overpriced at neighborhood of US$0.85 each. Most dealers have an assortment can and fair typical prices are 5-6 for US$1. You could collect one hell of a lot of rather interesting pieces for a chunker less money. Then in time you could spend the savings on a pdf version Krause guide, which would empower you to attribute most of them, and really be independent. It seems like basically no money now, but once you've bought a few hundred the difference will be adding up.

On 5/2/2024 at 9:58 AM, VKurtB said:

I really DO NOT CARE if anyone is offended, truly I do not.  

It's sad when people reach the level of self-parody. It's like watching someone brag about kicking puppies and dumping used oil on the ground, and acting as if this is a thing to brag about. I'm not easily moved to pity for people whose whole basic MO is to take pride in cruelty, but I'm actually starting to feel sorry for you.

There are people simply asking questions; they don't know the terms or parameters, anything, but the questions are polite if misguided. We can educate them. Most of us were them once. No one needs to be a jerk to them.

There are people who ask questions, don't like the answers, then argue and become rude. On those, I seek no mercy. You don't like the answer, great, go find another answer, but that was ours.

The hypocrisy that I find most disgusting is to inflict the punishments deserved by the second group on the first one, and then to lie to oneself and others about one's motives. That's contemptible.

The OP is right. Anyone who doesn't want to answer basic newbie questions, it's okay if they don't come here and do so. Anyone who can't be polite until people are rude to us, fine, sod off, I'm okay with it.

On 5/1/2024 at 3:48 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes, calling out ignorance is my crusade. Read. Study. Listen. THEN opine about what happened to a coin. What makes it far worse is that there seem to be tens of thousands of people like our OP out there. It takes a metaphorical “2x4 upside the head” to get their attention. “Nuclear weapon polemics” if you will. 

And it's obviously achieving your goal. Ignorance is decreasing everywhere around you, all thanks to your saintliness. I've seen a 16% drop this week alone!

At least stop deceiving yourself, and trying to deceive us, about your motives.

On 5/1/2024 at 3:41 PM, VKurtB said:

I admittedly have a nearly nonexistent appetite for ignorance. 

That's always the favorite deflection, isn't it? This crusade? I do not buy it.