JKK

On 5/30/2024 at 7:39 PM, Captain Murder said:

Have you heard of the "Marder" Nazi Holocaust Tank? That's my last name. My grandparents will never admit it, but I swear sometimes I'm not really Jewish and my grandparents lied about it to escape war crime trials. Lol, or maybe I'm just imagining it because I'm Powermad also.

It wasn't a tank. The Marder was an open-topped tank destroyer series. Tanks have turrets, with very rare and somewhat questionable exceptions. In our modern day, the Marder is the German APC or ICV.

No and no. As a brutally abused combination vise and parking lot job, it is worth its Cu value and no more. Sending it in for grading would be lunacy.

On 5/27/2024 at 8:13 PM, Denise collins said:

OMG I'm sorry I don't quiet understand all this I'm starting to collect and I know research is the best way to figure out so I've been on so many sites please forgive 

It's all right. We often forget that forum title terms whose knowledge we take for granted, like 'registry', are not well known to newcomers to the hobby. We just get the topic moved where it belongs and go from there; it's only a problem if people don't learn/care (happens more than you might imagine).

First, you will do yourself a great service by assuming PMD in all cases of odd appearance, making the coins essentially innocent until proven guilty by conclusive evidence. That's the opposite of what most new arrivals do, driven by bouts of pariedolia. Your introduction shows that you do not want to be those people, which is good. You'll learn more and be less embarrassed, and it'll be obvious to regulars that you're worth helping.

Second: most important thing you can do is learn how minting happens, starting from the ingredients that make up hubs then dies, and that go into creating planchets. It matters a great deal that minting technologies and metal choices have changed in our lifetimes, and this has affected the error potential. This matters hugely because if you follow what I said above, and look at every coin with skepticism, you'll ask yourself how could this possibly have occurred at the mint? If you know how minting happened in that coin's timeframe, you will be equipped to make a reasonable assessment (which most of the time will be "it couldn't; moving on").

You can't know if they did it wrong until you understand what doing it right looked like.

Nope. That looks like some form of mechanical doubling, probably die deterioration. The shelfy look is a dead giveaway.

On 5/24/2024 at 8:34 AM, Busthead said:

Assuming a coin has no other significant value, what percentage of the melt value would a reputable buyer offer?

I think most dealers give you around 95%, unless they're drowning in junk silver--the hobby's rather crude term for what you're describing. (What they really hate is gold.) If you have winnowed it out to the junk silver, a precious metal house will probably give you the best value (or a private collector who likes it might do just as well).

The way this works is that pretty much all dealers have to deal in junk silver on some level, because too many of their customers are precious metal people and that's what they want. Also, they mainly restock their inventory from buying out collections like yours, and thus they end up with a steady supply of it, so they want that ready stacker market and try to be reasonably competitive, but that can vary a bit.

Every time I've thought about starting a B&M coin shop, the first reason why not is always the bullion stuff. You can't really make any money in a shop without doing the bullion part, which means listening to all the bullion bull[waste] from people who need to be listened to and at least nodded at for validation or they'll go somewhere else. I'm absolutely terrible at pretending to validate something I don't, and I know I'd gutshoot my prospects from the beginning. So I just don't--but I know how it works for dealers, and most of them don't have to pretend as much as I would (or are better actors).

Not sure I'd put my address and the amount of estimated tax I paid at some point out there on a public forum.

On 5/23/2024 at 6:44 AM, RonnieR131 said:

 They come and they go. Gets old. Hopefully not another three page thread. The end.

The #1 indicator at a glance of a thread that has gone pear-shaped, usually with some pariedoliac who insists on arguing with people who know more, is whether it has spilled onto a second page. By the end of that page, the gloves are typically off.

On 5/22/2024 at 1:09 PM, Busthead said:

Happy to pay someone. How do I find a reputable assessor in/around Sacramento, CA?

I would suggest you contact your local coin club. Just show up to a meeting and ask around. There is an excellent chance someone will offer to help you for a reasonable fee, and they wouldn't want to besmirch themselves or their club by doing you wrong.

On 5/22/2024 at 11:40 AM, Busthead said:

Do non-profit coin dealers that support local charities exist?

No. You might actually have to pay someone to evaluate your collection.

On 5/21/2024 at 6:06 PM, ghenadi said:

There is so much criticism directed at me, they say that I collect modern garbage, it would be better if I spent my money on rare coins from 1800-1950. Now I'm confused, maybe I'm really doing something wrong?

Everyone has different collecting preferences. There's no fundamentally wrong way to collect. If for example you wanted to see if you could amass the world's largest collection of 1964 US nickels, every last one of them worth exactly 5c, that'd be up to you. I wouldn't understand it, but I don't need to. Only you do. However, some people will keep warning you that what you're collecting isn't worth much and never will be, and you should understand this habit of warning, because we have so many new collectors who come here thinking purely of the profit motive. We forum regulars become conditioned to assumptions which might or might not be justified in each person's case. Imagine how it looks to us, with a steady parade of people confidently braying that they have Rare Mint Errors, and us having to give bad news nearly every time. We get into a rut. Those among us who are intellectually honest will admit that.

There are two basic motives in coin collecting: interest and profit. Sometimes a collector follows a combination of the two.

With modern US coins, it's like this. If you collect them because you like them, and you expect minimal profit, then you won't be disappointed because they're cheap and easy to find. If you expect profit from them, you will almost surely be disappointed because they are common enough that demand is not high. You would expect that from how cheap they are. Demand drives pricing. That's why older US coins can be so spendy--demand is high, for example, for bust half dollars and seated half dimes. This is one reason I grew fairly bored with US coins of any age, and turned to ancients as well as coins from the rest of the world. (I love those huge 5 kopek pieces from around 1800. Oni ochen prekrasnii.)

With non-US coins from the modern era, there is far less demand overall. I don't think coin collecting is as popular in some other countries, and for a good percentage of the world coin collecting would be a hobby for the few who could afford such a frivolity. I am sure there are collectors in Bangladesh, but per capita I suspect there are fewer than here. One reason I like modern era world coins is that they're relatively inexpensive for the interest level they offer me (well, that, and I read enough writing systems to have a natural advantage). But I'm never expecting that my world coins will someday be worth large amounts of money. Neither will most of my ancients, so my own goal is not so much profit as to avoid overspending while mostly enjoying the fact that they fill albums of history.

Collect what you want. Not everyone will understand it. On slabs/professional grading, if your goal is eventual profit, you're really throwing money away because you are never going to make back the cost of grading. If you are doing it because you like them, and you would literally rather spend $40-60 on plastic than on the coins you could buy for that $40-60, that's your choice. I also will not understand it, but you don't need anyone's permission to collect what you want the way you want.

I would point out that nearly any modern coin you elect to clean, you will likely harm irreparably, but the good part there is that they probably weren't worth much so at least you didn't lose much money. I have cleaned some world coins that I literally could not identify as they were, because there was nothing to lose. Ancients often come in huge coin clods (someone buried the bag in antiquity and didn't come back for it) that have to be soaked and cleaned just to get them apart safely and to see what they are. That's a sort of cleaning I do understand.

It's also true that if one likes damaged coins, one doesn't need to check one's change. One can damage them oneself, and thus use it as a form of creative expression.

On 5/18/2024 at 3:10 PM, EGH49 said:

Thanks for the quick replies.  

JKK.  How do you really feel about cleaning coins? 

 I've read that admonition  so many times,  that's why I was so conflicted - just wanted some clarification.  Never fear.  I was only thinking of using the acetone on coins low on value but high on dirt like heavily traveled LMCs.  When I do, I will certainly follow Coinbuf's good tips.

Other than that I will not clean my coins. 

Thanks again.

Good. I haven't yet read you describing a logical reason to clean them. Now, if they were covered in PVC slime, that would be a reason. If they were otherwise illegible, that would be a reason.

Please understand that we get waves of people coming here thinking that coins need to be "shinny" (most of them are semiliterate) and that if they're tarnished somehow, well, let's just shine 'em up a little. I do not, at start, know any differently about anyone whose first question entails cleaning, so the first step is to tell them not to f-bomb their coins up with cleaning. They can always f-bomb them up later once they know they are about to f-bomb them up and refuse to refrain from that, and there's nothing I can do to stop that. But we still try, and now and then we get someone's attention.

Don't clean your coins.

If you have any questions about that, don't clean your coins.

While you are thinking about and evaluating them, don't clean your coins.

Hope that's helpful.

You might have a hard time finding that sweet spot. I don't know what they cost, and in fact I don't even know much about how they work, but I think mostly dealers have them. This would indicate that ones worth having are major capital investments they expect to recoup in avoidance of buying phonies, assay capacity, and so on. Most collectors have basic scales and many have calipers and microscopes (and yes, they do have value provided they are not used for foolish purposes), but I think very very few have metal analysis equipment.

On 5/15/2024 at 11:42 AM, tulloa said:

I mean, don’t you have to have your coins certified before you sell them?

No, you don't. You can sell them to whoever wants to buy them (this one would bring 25c). Certification matters mainly to people who prefer it, primarily those who collect coins that are commonly counterfeited or altered, or to certify that a given variety or error is present.

Before someone spends $40-60 to have a coin certified, one should consider whether it's even worth 10% of that amount. In most cases it is not. I get that, for new collectors, having coins graded and slabbed feels like "doing it right." It isn't, at least not automatically. One should ask oneself just how much really cool stuff one could get for $40-60, and that'll usually answer the question.

On 5/14/2024 at 1:51 PM, Praneet sadana said:

Thanks, what you think the value should be ungraded like this? 

Retail could be anywhere between about $150 and maybe $250, just guessing. Dealer probably pays half of one of those figures or one in between. A lot depends on whether the flattening is strike weakness or wear.

That's a nice one, with what seem like planchet defects not related to PMD. Interesting color and toning, pretty flow lines, not sure it's even circulated as the flat spots on the high points might well be strike weakness. It might get MS-62 or so if the grading people think the way I'm thinking; if not, probably AU-55. Much nicer than mine, which is EF scratched and quite clearly circulated.

Start by assuming they are all circulation marks. That is the automatic presumption and the challenge, the burden is to prove that such a mark somehow happened at a mint.

To use a judicial analogy, assume that the prosecution has video conclusively identifying the accused in the act of committing the crime, and that your task is to prove the accused innocent. That's how skewed it is. If you do that, you will be looking at this sensibly and will not be starting out with false hope, but with healthy skepticism. That's the best help I can offer you.

On 5/12/2024 at 10:20 PM, piggymeu said:

dam I give up 

Depends what you're giving up on.

If it's finding rare doubled dies in change, let's put it this way: The likelihood of finding those is remote enough that giving up is reasonable.

If it's coins as a whole, I'd hold up on that. There is a lot in the coin world that is fun and interesting. It is very diverse. For example, we've got one person here who mainly collects French gold pieces. We have token enthusiasts. Me, I'm an ancients and Islamic world specialist with a broad interest in non-US coinage.

The good news is that many very interesting coins are very reasonably priced. Very few are going to show up in your change, but that doesn't mean they will be beyond your means. For example, one can have decent late Roman bronzes for $8-12 in many cases. You'd fall over in shock to find out how cheap German Imperial post-unification stuff can be. And if you want to collect something closer to home like Lincolns, there are only a few issues that are very spendy. Most aren't. Absent several rarities that'll take some money to finish, a nice circulated Linc set is a very worthy and affordable goal to shoot for. Roosevelts are even easier because, while the 1964 and before are silver and will always cost at least the current silver value, few issues are rare and there aren't as many as Lincolns simply because they showed up almost forty years later. There's a lot to discover and look forward to.

On 5/8/2024 at 7:53 AM, Coinbuf said:

@JKK that was an interesting read, however, did you see the op posted this in 2021.

I did. It's for the benefit of others, and perhaps to bring about discussion of general numismatic ethics. If it was dredged once, it'll be dredged again.

On 4/2/2021 at 1:01 PM, Bignubnumismatics said:

I am nearing the end of my high school days and have to start thinking about future careers. I am extremely passionate about numismatics, and I would love for my great hobby to be my career. I have been to the Summer Seminar (several times had it not been for this virus) and am in the middle of completing the ANA's Numismatic Diploma Program. Are there any tips or other actions I should take to make the dream become a reality? 

As you're about to shuck the Y from YN, I think this is pretty cool.

First decide how ethical you want to be. That might seem out of left field, but it's what will really determine your career trajectory. It is one thing to say immediately that you'll be at maximum ethics; it's another to carry that out when you realize that private collection sellers often have zero knowledge of their coins' value, aren't really checking with anyone else, and will accept any amount from you that seems sane even if a bit disappointing.

A suggested ethic to really carry this out is to look at how much knowledge the seller asserts. The more they do--if they look like they plan to negotiate hard and are at least purporting to be experienced--the less duty of fairness falls on you. If it's a person who obviously has zero knowledge, then this ethic doesn't require you to pay more than what is fair, but it does mean that you should pay no less even when you could. This will mean that the bad guys, on balance, will sometimes be able to undercut you at retail, because they will give someone $750 for Bampaw's collection when a fairer price would be $900. Integrity isn't free. Evil typically wins more than it loses, because evil ignores ethics and rules. The good guys don't always win, and our commercial society is set up to reward greed and punish integrity. That's just our society; love it or hate it, you're in it.

Another ethical question concerns condition and grading. Your typical dealer overgrades by about half to one and a half. Pariedolia? Greed? Inexperience? It varies. I know a great dealer in Boise who is a good guy in many ways, but you can mentally mark every coin he sells down by one grade, and I always bear that in mind. I at least will be able to get the coin from him for what I should pay, but a novice is taking a double hosing. My dealer in Kennewick, by contrast, is a little bit famous and the guy's grading and disclosures are unimpeachable. His shop is where you look at a flip and see a conservative grade plus something like "cleaned" or "damaged" stated right up front. He knows that if you state that up front, buyers are happier and more willing to pay what you're asking, but he's also just a hell of a vendor who hires good people. Bullets bounce off his rep.

I mention all this because this hobby is one where bad word gets around. Even though I am not prominent in any way, I can be in any coin shop in the Pacific Northwest for the first time, and odds are that they will take a paper check from me (especially if it's not like some huge amount). Who would do that, and why? They've never heard of me until that day. It's because I know folks they do know, like the dealer in Kennewick or my local ancients mentor; I'm in the local club and am familiar with its longtimers; I'm also not putting pressure on the dealer or making them nervous; if they prefer a credit card, I understand, just trying to save them the fee. They asked where I was from, and we traded enough names to satisfy them. The logic here is that because I do not have a bad reputation--word travels fast--no one who rolls with some fairly prominent people would be insufficiently_thoughtful_person enough to junk that whole rep for good over bouncing a $75 check. They'd hear about it, and I'd be avoided.

So. I think your first decision is to decide what kind of person you want to be. That'll affect the rest of your choices; the choice to go the less ethical route is one that would take a fair bit of your adult life to reverse, whereas the choice to go the more ethical route could be destroyed much more quickly. But if you do go the most ethical route, you are likely to attract the support and great word-of-mouth that can be provided by the good guys (local collectors likely to be regulars and who live by ethics). Once they see how you do business, they'll put some effort into helping you. You'll become one of them.

Up to you.

I always wonder at the audacity of this. In what universe do people imagine that it makes sense to post such a question without images that show what they're talking about? I have no problem with the fundamental question, just beggars all reason that we should somehow be able to answer that from a simple written description.

I get that photography is difficult and irritating. I loathe doing it. That's why I never do it unless I really, really care about the answer, and always on other forums that are more germane to my interests. But if you want it explained, and you won't show us what you want explained...nothing to be said or done but shake one's head.

Guys, is it as simple as that, that photography is hard and people are trying to get out of it if possible? I mean, that's what I'd be doing myself, if I were so out of touch with reality that I imagined anyone could help me without photography. As in, if I could get away with it--which no one can, least of all me.

On 5/7/2024 at 10:37 AM, Praneet sadana said:

Thanks. Will it effect the value? I think I paid like 30 dollar for it few years back. 

Nah. There are enough contact marks that I don't think this one rises to the level of damage. It's just a contact mark that happened to nail it right on the MM.

Good photos. Well done.
The zoomed photo makes me think the mint mark took an external impact after the mint. It's not rare for an uncirculated Morgan to get a contact mark that slams right into the mint mark.