physics-fan3.14

Had a dealer email me and offer to pay $2000 above the mint's price if I would order and ship them to him. 

Absolutely could not get out of work today to be on the website at noon, but I really tried. 

My phone (and thus, my alarm) automatically reset itself. 

But, I don't set an alarm and I don't work on Sundays. 

Honestly, the search feature on these boards is not great. The format change a few years ago didn't help. 

Try this method instead - use google: https://www.wikihow.com/Use-Google-to-Search-Within-a-Specific-Website

5 minutes ago, zadok said:

...interesting that many of the most prolific proponents of dismantling, relocating and deaccessing the ana r not members nor collectors, why would members or collectors listen to their opinions or recommendations without questioning their motives ... recommendations to move the ana to new york city, wash dc, chicago, los angeles other supposedly more sophisticated locations r simply inane, why would any collector, researcher or yn want to go to any of those locations in this day n age..."instigation of this heresy" was misinformed n wrong in the past n still is in the present...some members of this forum seem to have been living in prairie dog holes for the past few decades n r out of touch with the hobby n collectors, non-collectors usually r...there r many adjuncts to the hobby that provide individuals with influence, platforms n accolades, often inflated, that do not translate to well grounded opinions n recommendations for what is best for the hobby or the ana...there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well  situated geographically, financially n professionally...

I think the idea of co-locating the ANA museum with a mint facility is a fantastic idea. Shoot, even the Denver mint a hundred miles away would be better than where it is now. I think locating ANA headquarters in an intentionally out-of-the-way backwater town that's infrequently visited and maybe hard to get to is a terrible idea. This is supposed to be an organization servicing "American Numismatics" - it makes sense to locate it in a hub of American commerce or tourism. There are several major hubs - New York, DC, Atlanta, Denver, Chicago, LA.... I'm sure you could think of at least 10 different cities where there would be significantly higher traffic higher interest, higher attendance, and higher admission fees. Literally any town with a Mint or Fed Reserve Branch would make sense - a lot more sense than Colorado Springs. 

Now, New York already has the ANS, and DC has the NNC (if it ever gets a decent display of its own). I could argue you might not want to put it in one of those towns. But that still leaves a huge list of potential cities with major exposure where the ANA would have a better chance of being a major attraction and influence. 

6 hours ago, zadok said:

...innovators and reshapers are not necessarily beneficial to the hobby...changing a hobby does not always make it better...many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements, original research into the roots of any hobby is usually a productive effort that adds clarification and historical documentation, research and innovation that is designed and motivated to simply influence others into following a desired path does not necessarily make the hobby better...not all innovators, reshapers, researchers are equal, some have actually damaged the hobby...perhaps the greatest influencers of a hobby were the originators and discoverers of the hobby while in its purest form and not all those that seek to change it...perhaps Coin World should have titled their survey to be a list of greatest positive influencers...

I believe the underlying assumption both of the poll and of my post are that these are positive influences. 

I can list quite a few nominees for negative influencers (and some of them would be on that CoinWorld list...), but even those are controversial figures who've also contributed positively. For example, Rick Tomaska: today, he's known as a shuckster hyping overpriced tripe on coin-tv, mercilessly ripping off unsuspecting sheep. However, in his early career he wrote a couple of books that helped influence our understanding of cameo proof coinage, as well as Franklin halves. He started out his career making some really positive contributions, including helping PCGS and NGC develop and implement their Cam/Dcam and FBL designations (well, many of consider that a positive... some could argue). So, he's got good and bad - but there is no denying he's had influence on the hobby. 

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I agree but to many "collectors" is considered the equivalent of heresy.  Much of what passes for "collecting" in US "numismatics" is actually financialization.

While that is often true, many of the truly great collections were actually assembled by dedicated numismatists who genuinely enjoyed the coins and contributed to the hobby. Newman comes to mind as a prominent example. Eliasberg was a collector, albeit an incredibly wealthy one. Bruce Morelan always comes off as a coin person who just happens to have truckloads of money - but his passion for the coins is always clear. You might disagree with some of the decisions he's made, but any interview with him and his passion for the coins really comes through. 

4 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow.......

I mean, I've had conversations with 72 people at coins shows as well. 

That doesn't mean they're influential or anything important. 

Shoot, you go to a decent sized show and you'll talk to a hundred dealers at least - and many of the people on this list are prominent dealers. 

5 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

Agree, decades from now, many on this list will be completely forgotten.

Today, many on this have already been completely forgotten. 

I might find this list more useful if there was a tooltip that popped up for each person briefly explaining what they did or why they were important. 

As I've mentioned, well over half the names on this list I've never heard of before. 

(And I'll add... D-ick Osburne should be on this list.. he's done more for Seated coinage than anyone else)

4 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

Those who aren't collectors aren't going out of their way to Colorado Springs in any meaningful numbers to see the collection.

That's the advantage of the Money Shows. They are (theoretically) scattered about the country. 

If you have an ad with a bunch of old farts looking at old coins, that's not going to attract a whole lot of people. 

But if you show a slick ad with a coin worth $5 MILLION DOLLARS - COME SEE IT FOR FREE!!!!! then I have to think that some people are going to come see it just for the novelty. The idea of it is enough to get some people interested enough to come check the show out. 

I'd wager that single coin does more to attract people to shows than any YN program they can imagine - and it probably attracts people with more cash they might be willing to spend than your average 13 year old. 

I'll be honest, I consider myself to be a fairly knowledgeable collector. 

There were quite a few names on that list that I'd never heard of. 

And, there were quite a few names on that list who were only there because they were rich. 

They aren't influential. 

Influential people are people who've reshaped what we know or understand, how we think about a significant portion of the hobby, how we approach our knowledge. 

Many of us could argue John Albanese to be one of the most influential people alive in our hobby (started PCGS... started NGC... started CAC....) Do his successors (David Hall, Mark Salzburg, etc) deserve to be on this list? I'd argue no. 

But, you have to think that Tom Delorey, Skip Fazzari, and others around that time built the foundation that he erected his empire on.

RWB almost single-handedly changed the way we view numismatic research, and has helped pioneer an original-source-document approach to modern research. (You'd have to include Tompkins, Augsberger, and a few others in that discussion). I'd argue these are as influential as many of the others on this list (and, as mentioned, omissions such as Kraljevich are awful). 

Many of the people on this list are dealers.... how influential are they in changing the hobby? In that they publicize and advertise, and help shape demand as such, I suppose they are influential. But do they really belong on a list like this? Adkins, Rinkor, Tomaska.... they've each tried to drive demand for their segment. Is that enough to earn the top spots? 

34 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

How much is the estimated value of the collection?

For coins on loan, who is paying for insurance and any other costs?  The ANA or the owner?

How much of the collection is even on display?

How many visitors does it receive and how does this contribute to the ANA's mission, other than just exposing the public to collecting?  (I doubt the museum does much to either increase the collector base or membership.)

I know that at the ANA sponsored shows, they always bring highlights of the collection for display. 

Things like "1913 nickels" and "1804 dollars" always attract attention, even if they aren't desirable to some of us. These are headline-grabbing show-stoppers, like it or not, and that sort of publicity drives attendance and viewership. 

How much of the museum do they outright own and could thus deacquisition? 

My understanding is that much of the museum is really actually on long-term loan, and ownership rights are retained by the estates or collectors. 

27 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

Read part 2 here: https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-part-two/

ANACS took off like gangbusters - they were doing 10,000 coins a month. 

The difference is, at the time, ANACS was not encapsulating coins. They were issuing photo certificates, but the coins were not slabbed. 

PCGS, and then a year later NGC, both encapsulated the coins from the very beginning. Clearly, the market decided that this was preferable to just a certificate. 

May seem like a silly question, but humor me: 

What's the difference between a "matrix" and a "punch"? 

20 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

They did that already. ANACS began as the official authentication department of the ANA, and then became the first TPG in the 1970's. They sold ANACS to CoinWorld in 1989. 

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-anacs/

5 hours ago, KStouch said:

I figured I should chime in, seeing as how I have a somewhat rare perspective as a 24 year old numismatist. I never took advantage of any ANA YN programs but I was lucky enough to have multiple mentors that helped me grow my knowledge of numismatics. Most of my friends that did participate in ANA YN programs still had a mentor that helped them throughout the years. It is still very important to have substantial funding for YN programs, but as a community we should be doing everything possible to share our knowledge with anyone willing to learn and give first hand experience when possible. I understand a lot of YN's leave the hobby but there is still a relatively large group us younger guys/girls shaping the community today.          

KS - I hear you. 

I personally was attracted to the hobby when I was 10, through the influence of my grandfather. Through my teen years, I mostly pursued the hobby on my own with no mentorship. It wasn't until I discovered the NGC forums in college that I really began to grow as a numismatist. 

I don't want to deny the significance of people like us who were YNs and developed into adult collectors. And, I'll bet you can find many significant collectors who followed our path. 

My main point is - how many of us are these lifelong YN's who stick with the hobby, compared to the adults who find the hobby later in life. If the ANA has limited resources, how much should be devoted to the YNs compared to the adult collectors who are the real heart of the hobby?

I don't recall having seen anything about this previously, but I may have missed it.

PCGS just certified the first new 1795 Flowing Hair Half Dollar variety in the past century. It is now "O-133."

Very interesting article about it here: https://coinweek.com/us-coins/pcgs-...ollar-variety-discovered-in-nearly-a-century/

20 hours ago, gmarguli said:

I didn't mean that the ANA Board overfunded it, but rather the amount of funds set aside for it was way more than needed. Maybe 10 years ago I received a donation request card from the ANA and it asked where you wanted your donation to be applied. A person who was "involved" with the ANA posted on the forums that everyone selects the YN section and that there is more than enough money set aside for YNs while other parts of the ANA were struggling because everyone wants to support the YNs. I don't know if it was true, but the person was a credible source and the reasoning sounds very reasonable.

The irony is, focussing so much resources on the YNs probably have the least benefit to the hobby as a whole. Sure, you might grab a few every once in a while who go on to become collectors (and stay collectors throughout their life - like myself), and you might get some who come back to the hobby later - but I'll bet the vast majority of YNs take their coins, take their book, take their boy scout merit badge and shove it in a box and forget about it. 

I'd wager a far better use of resources would be to develop, teach, engage active adult collectors. 

Now, this may sound harsh or mean because our hobby has "YNs are the future!" so deeply embedded into our philosophy that questioning the traditional wisdom may seem like heresy. Sure, YNs may be the future - 30 or 40 years from now. I just think a hobby organization like this might get more benefit from focusing on the active hobby. 

5 hours ago, Insider said:

1. The edge is totally original.  This is not PMD!

 

'm surprised that  no one has posted an image of a similar coin yet.   You probably can't see it in a slab.   Look at Peace dollars and quarters in the 40's.  I've seen this on half dollars and Morgan's.  I don't recall any coin smaller than a quarter with this characteristic.   

1. Are we talking about the edge or the rim? You mention the edge, and show a picture of the rim. Is the edge on this coin different in some way? Or are you confusing terminology? 

2. How do we know that the effect you show on the rim is original and not PMD? PMD is much easier to explain on this coin than some mint effect. I've never seen this effect myself, and I've never seen any process described which would reasonably produce this effect. 

3. Maybe nobody's posted an image of a similar coin because nobody's seen a similar coin? 

4. The effect you show would be easily visible in any slab, including the pronged slabs that cover parts of the rim. The portion of rim shown is significant. 

5. You say you've only seen this on larger coins. Can you think of any reason why it would be on larger denominations and not smaller? And, since you assert this is a mint made effect, can you explain how/why there is a difference between these larger denominations and the smaller ones? 

9 hours ago, Insider said:

It is not damage!!!   I thought some kind of die fatigue too.  Due to the responses I now wonder if the planchet was not annealed properly and the upset mill did this. 

Please explain how the upset mill could do this? 

25 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Full disclosure - I own what someone has said is a KKK medal. I don’t know one way or another. Not my bag, and I do end up with lots of random stuff from bulk auction lots. PA medals are a very diverse bunch of stuff.

Kurt - I've chosen to view a few of your responses to this thread, as others have quoted you and I felt the need to respond. You are still on ignore, of course. 

I have absolutely no problem with people owning KKK items. I have no problem with people owning Nazi items. I am from Charleston, SC, and one of the local collectibles you'll see at shows here are slave tags (basically, IDs to let people know what job a slave was qualified to perform). These are all historical items, and if collected and presented with the proper historical context, I personally don't see any issue in owning them. Not my personal interest, but as I said, I'm from the South so I've seen these items for sale. The historical context is important - obviously, these items are not ok on their own. 

The problem this weekend was that another member accused a few of us of being in the Klan, and posted a series of KKK medals and associated us with them. I personally find this the most vile of accusations, and any member here who would accuse me of being associated with the KKK is absolutely despicable. 

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

but you are not going to get a full image

Sometimes, a full image is helpful. I've posted about this before. 

Sometimes, a full image is necessary. This is one example. 

Please either post a full image, or tell us what you're trying to get at in this case. Because we aren't going to get it from tiny images. I consider myself very good at identifying AT vs NT - but I'd consider it madness to even attempt from a tiny fraction of one side photograph that's absolutely color imbalanced as badly as your picture. 

And dude, for the love of Venus, please post color corrected photos. I'm ok if you post black and whites if they are properly adjusted, but it seems that many of your micrographs have a STRONG shift to the yellow or green. It's highly distracting. 

4 minutes ago, Insider said:

This is exactly the color of this coin.

So, you're telling me the holder is banana yellow? 

I doubt it. 

Or at least, I hope not. 

1 minute ago, VKurtB said:

While not endorsing the complained of posts in any way, and your own admission above of being frequently being misunderstood as to your intent, don’t you think some work remains on that? Honestly? I never saw the offensive posts, but if I had, I might have defended you. You clearly are NOT my cup o’ tea, but there are limits.

 

i am in the middle of the process of my 760 mile change of residence, and for days at a time, I am without bandwidth.

We are all human. We are all (hopefully) constantly improving. 

The recent controversy involved a member literally posting KKK medals and saying that they were intended for me and a couple of other members. 

I am not, have not, and never will be, involved in that sort of vile organization. 

5 minutes ago, Insider said:

THIS: NGC has absolutely the most lax moderation in the history of coin forums.  

That's going to be one reason why this place is going to rise from the dead as it is starting to do.  Now if the "snowflakes" of the progressive left persuasion can learn to use the ignore function and mind their own business...  

 

 

.     

 

There needs to be a balance between the sometimes-Orwellian moderation of the PCGS forums and the completely wild west lack of moderation on the NGC forums. 

I want to be able to criticize NGC decisions and announcements, as I currently can (but wouldn't on the PCGS forums). 

I don't want to be called a Nazi and KKK for criticizing members of the NGC forum (as I was this weekend). 

A properly moderated forum draws the line somewhere in-between. I don't consider myself a snowflake, but when someone starts a thread, calls me out, posts KKK medals, and says that I fit the bill.... I'd say that crosses a line.