GBrad

On 8/9/2021 at 3:10 PM, Michael Heck said:

thought this one was cool not sure what happend to it.

Definitely post mint damage here (PMD). Nothing like that happened during the minting process. No telling at all what happened to it. Just damaged. 

Welcome to the forum!! Greenstang makes a good point. IMHO it looks like it may have seen some time in a clothes dryer (known as a dryer coin) by the looks of the rounded and bulged edge and rims I can see on my cell phone at the moment. Definitely a worn and circulated cent which could account for the loss of weight. Should be around 3.11 grams for a copper but 2.87 is not unusual for a worn cent. 

On 8/8/2021 at 3:37 PM, James Zyskowski said:

Well sorry to hear that give them a call they have always been pleasant to deal with. 🤓

To reiterate on your comment about pleasant to deal with, Yes, I will have to agree with you. Kevin promptly responded to my email question. He gave me their return address and just asked to send a note along with it explaining the reason for the exchange. Can’t ask for anymore than that. 

Just sent L&C an email regarding my 2000 ASE and returning it.  I'll let you know what they say when I hear back from them.  

On 8/9/2021 at 11:50 AM, J P Mashoke said:

Holy shmoly GBrad you sound like Quintus

Hey JP, do you have any idea how long it took me to come up with that and I'm hoping I used the words correctly after researching them all  (I was waiting on someone to comment) !!!!!   No joke... some of the verbiage QA uses forces me to pull out the Meriam Websters.... As a result, my vocabulary has expanded!!!  Thanks QA!

On 8/8/2021 at 7:40 PM, VKurtB said:

On the tarmac at O’Hare and the whole place is on lightning lockdown. Speaking of which, shhhhh, I got me some WHITE lightning in the checked bag. My special mash including  jussatouchcha magnolia blossoms and whatever the farmer down the road is growing. Shhh. Don’t tell nobody. I bet the feral cats and dogs’ll enjoy their “water” dishes. Yeah, right, water. Mm hmm. 

Hello Gofiga.  I would like to politely explain something to you.  This NGC forum is packed full of world renowned numismatic experts who are more than willing to help anyone 'new to the game'.  I was new to coin collecting at one point and heck..... I am still learning from the help of the experts on this NGC forum and I am extremely grateful for their overwhelming help, insight and support. The thing is... I learned from their comments when I posted something that I was unsure of and I accepted their answers. Not only did I accept their answers, but I then took it upon myself to really start learning about coins and certain errors and varieties which I enjoy, by educating myself with Numismatic educational material.  The internet itself is full of information in which to learn from. 

Below is one of your posts that you made in your 'New to Coins' thread back in May of this year.  Your comment, as JKK remembers and pointed out, is not well taken by those who are volunteering their time and expertise in helping out newcomers to this great hobby.  You asked a question as a new coin collector, receive numerous and well educated replies... AND... Mr. DW Lange, The Research Director at NGC  (the forum in which you are visiting if I may remind you) whom I would consider to be "just" a little bit of an EXPERT and knowledgeable on coins, replied to your thread .... and then you post what you posted.....? I am truly at a loss of words as you called us all Dumb People....  You said you were going to join another coin forum... so what happened on 'that' forum that made you come back here? Just curios......

Your post below:

"Lol dumb ppl I asked a simple question and that was all then saying it's fake or altered when you have no clue So laugh all u want because I'm not trying to get anyone to agree on anything person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point 2+2=5  no way possible what a dumb comment the post says new to Coins means I'm new to coin collecting So yea I don't know much but I do know one thing this is the worst negative chat group for new ppl Just asking a simple question but thanks to your negative inputs I will find another coingroup to join"

On 8/8/2021 at 2:04 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!  The expression, numismatically,  of "mad scientist" can be traced back to the sterile etymology of "MisAligned Dies," and their close sanguine relatives, "doubled- and rotated-dies."  I haven't the slightest idea why all the fuss over obvious imperfections, but I must admit it sounds good, and makes collectors of such curiosities and oddities, deliriously happy.]

I can only assume that this as a compliment???  One day I would like to get inside of your head and, by simple osmosis, become one, and at total peace with, your patois and argot terminology......... You have unknowingly, and unintentionally (which I am appreciative of, with all due respect... I think..), broadened my vernacular and patter of speech with your colloquialism approach to the English language.  Sincerely,

GBrad 

On 8/8/2021 at 2:32 PM, Woods020 said:

I still don’t see a match. There seem to be noticeable differences. Die state and circ/uncirc may play a role with some of it. In your coin (top) the suspected underlying D is fairly straight relative to the mint mark. Wexler’s WRPM-003 (bottom) is much more tilted. Also your coin has some protrusions that the Wexler example doesn’t and vice versa.

 

 

Yours also seems to have noticeable differences from the Variety Vista RPM-01. Your coin (Top) has much more of a shelf and separation than the RPM-01(bottom). The RPM-01 also has a horizontal extension of the underlying are that ends well past the hump in the D, while your coin only has a much smaller extension. 

 

Now I would agree that this looks like strike doubling from the shelf, but the areas on the right side of the MM wouldn’t be there I don’t believe if it was strike doubling (below). That’s why I went with DDD. Could very well be yours is an earlier die state and that accounts for the differences in the VV RPM-01. 

Thank you very much Woods for your in-depth analysis on this, truly appreciated. I can only attribute this to a few things such as that it’s an earlier die state example and/or possibly less circulation wear as compared to the only other two examples found online. The Wexler’s example pic has a lot of shadow on the bottom of the D which makes it hard to see any resemblance in that respective area of the MM. The VV example, albeit a much later die state, to me looks right on the mark for this one with the same features. The features of my coin at the 12, 4, 7 and 9 o’clock positions are spot on IMO with VV. Especially the small protrusion at the 4 o’clock position. 
Unfortunately, there are not any markers notated or mentioned for this one on any of the websites. 
With that said, it’s definitely not worth a major premium but nevertheless I still wholeheartedly believe it is the assigned RPM we have been discussing.
Once again, thank you for taking the time you did to do the comparison here. This is the reason I really enjoy this forum because of those members who go out of their way to look into valid questions and concerns about coins whether they are grumpy, plethoras of knowledge, or exemplary vernacular knowledgeable experts or not😁!!!!!

On 8/7/2021 at 4:46 PM, Coinbuf said:

If you are able to promote this so that the TPG's do recognize and add it to registry sets then you would have a much larger more motivated pool of buyers for this variety.

Thanks Coinbuf for this info.  I'm in total agreement with you regarding the die state.  VV's RPM-001 is a late example and mine does appear to be a bit earlier die state but still a match.  Wexler's WRPM-003 D/D/D looks to be a match as well.  I'm supplying a pic of WRPM-003 below, with all rights to Wexler's I should add, since there was not any mention of NOT being able to share this particular photo as is said with other photos on that site for copyright issues.  If I'm incorrect I will remove it immediately!  I've looked at it in hand and I'm certain it is VV's RPM-001 or Wexler's designation as well.  Just has too much nice definition IMHO to be a product of Strike Doubling especially since there isn't any other useless forms of doubling I can find elsewhere on this Nickel.  As far as promoting this to a TPG........ that is way outside my knowledge or pay grade.  It definitely would be nice to have done though for a D/D/D which there are none that are realized or recognized by TPG's for this year as of yet (except FS-101 which is obviously a D/D and I know it's the grandfather of the 58' D RPM).  Thanks!

On 7/29/2021 at 1:02 AM, Conder101 said:

A rotated die and a misaligned die are not the same thing.  You could have either one, and it is also possible to have both at the same time.  The coin pictured has a rotated die but doesn't appear to have a misaligned die.

MN1, here's a pic for your reference in relation to Condor's comment.   My coin pictured is actually an OFF CENTER STRIKE Linc I found awhile ago in the wild in a wrapped bank roll.  Let me be specific here so as not to confuse you (with all due respect in case you are not already familiar with the differences of a rotated die, misaligned die, and I'm throwing in this pic of an off center strike just for reference but will explain below).  

My coin pictured here is an Off Center Strike (OCS) as I mentioned above.  Both the Obverse and Reverse were struck completely off center. Both sides have to be struck off center for it to be an OCS.

However......If ONLY the Obverse of a coin exhibited this misalignment (predominantly the Obverse), but the Reverse design of this coin was perfectly centered within its rim, that would be referred to as a Misaligned Die or M.A.D. for short. Only one side of the coin would be struck out of, or away from, its respective rim which would result in a MAD.

Your coin is what appears to be a rotated die as Condor said and it is possible to have both a rotated die and a MAD at the same time but I agree that yours is just a rotated die. Only one side of the opposing dies was not properly oriented in relation to the other side but the strike of your coin appears to be well centered on both sides but rotated. No different than the possibility of having true doubling and machine doubling at the same time on any specific coin.

Hope this helps and isn't too confusing.

Thanks! 

On 8/7/2021 at 8:23 PM, Jason Abshier said:

Old post that was resurrected, I’ve noticed a few old post popped up today on here don’t know why 

I agree with your observation.  I took a little break away from the forum for awhile some time ago and I remember at that time there seemed to be a whole heck of a lot more newbie questions on a daily basis.  Since getting back on and into this forum a few months ago, I noticed the activity on the newbie question section had diminished considerably since I was last active.  Thinking members here may be just trying to find stuff to comment on........ don't know...... just my 2 pennies worth...... 

On 8/8/2021 at 9:38 AM, J P Mashoke said:

That looks like a Rim mark above the( IN ) looks like it may have a milk spot also on the lower left of the gown also.

Definitely a rim mark above IN, can see where the reeded edge of another coin hit it.  But the gash on the head and mark on the lower ear are pretty bad.  With just these two very prominent marks, along with several others on the coin, should this coin have achieved a grade of MS69? I'm trying to further my grading skills here and this isn't helping.    And then I look at my Kennedy Half I purchased that came in at MS69 and I scratch my head wondering why it is not a MS70 because I can't find a single thing wrong with it.  

On 8/7/2021 at 9:58 PM, James Zyskowski said:

Hey buddy I don’t see any response from you about L&C   Hopefully everything went alright. Let’s see some pictures 🤓

Sorry for the delay.  Just got home yesterday from a long vacation.  Looked at my two TPG slabbed coins I purchased (both are legit, I verified them) and I have a major concern about one of them. I purchased an MS69 2000 Silver Eagle $1 and an MS69 1983-S Proof Kennedy Half UCAM/DCAM. The graded Silver Eagle has some serious issues. I don't feel it should have even come close to being an MS69 and I am a complete novice when it comes to grading.  The Kennedy on the other hand is absolutely pristine. Not sure yet about L&C's return policy for slabbed and TPG graded coins but I will look into it. Here are some pics of the 2000 Eagle and my concerns. Numerous contact marks on the obverse and reverse but here are just a few pics of the obverse.  Her head and ear took a major hit and a gash and then look at the reeded edge contact mark above IGWT.  Not sure what to think here....  I'm not putting L&C on the hook here or saying anything bad about them because they are selling already slabbed TPG coins and I'm sure they don't look at each coin in as much detail as the end buyer.  

On 8/7/2021 at 3:08 PM, Woods020 said:

Could very well be. It’s close for sure. But it seems to be exaggerated versus the RPM on Variety Vista, albeit they seem to have circulated examples. I’m in the car (passenger not driving 😂) and can look at other references later. Someone may give you a definitive yes/no before then 

I’m now in a car and pulled up my post and viewed my pics on my cell phone. I now see and think there’s a big difference in the clarity of the pics on a phone vs. a computer screen. Definitely doesn’t look as defined on my phone IMHO. 

On 8/7/2021 at 2:58 PM, Woods020 said:

I am inclined to think this is die deterioration doubling. The RPM-01 would be the only possible match, but this has more of a spread on the vertical bar of the D than the RPM. 
 

if it is the RPM-01 the reason you are having trouble finding sold prices is I don’t think anything but the D over horizontal D (FS-501) is recognized by the big TPGs. It’s just to minor for them. ANACs attributes about anything someone will pay them for so they might. But I don’t think you’ll find a PCGS or NGC attributed RPM-01. 

Definitely don't think its DDD.  Looks too close to the referenced numbers on Wexler's and VV quoted above.  I know it's not the biggie FS-101 but I'm pretty convinced it is an RPM.  Very minor flow lines are there but I don't see this die being deteriorated to the point to cause that type of doubling.  Just my 2 cents. Thanks!

On 8/7/2021 at 2:51 PM, J P Mashoke said:

Looks close to this http://www.varietyvista.com/05 JN RPMs/1958DRPM001.htm But it has also been kicking around for 63 years

Yes,  I agree that appears to be the same RPM.  Seems that all three major sites have different reference numbers but VV's appears to be the same as Coneca #1 and Wexler's -003.  Thanks.  

Here's a nice RPM on a 1958-D Jefferson I have, maybe a D/D/D?  I've perused the net on all the normal regularly used reference sites and I am inclined to believe that this is a match to Coneca RPM #1 for this series based on Wexler's WRPM-003.  Am I correct in my assumption? If so, any idea of a value? Hard to find one of these that have sold for a reference.  Thanks.

On 8/5/2021 at 2:40 PM, RWB said:

Uhmmm... What are you doing with your hand in your buddy's pocket, fingering his coins...again ? 

(As for the dime, incorrect annealing temperature/cool down affects all of the coin not just parts of it. After softening, the planchets are cleaned, removing all but the most severe discoloration from copper oxidation. The only consistent visible effect is a coin with reduced detail because the planchet is too hard.)

I can assure you my hand was not in my 'buddy's' pocket 'fingering' anything! I was simply referring to the 42' LWC DDO FS-103 I found in my friend's truck console where he keeps all of his spare change.  Maybe you missed that post I created 2 days ago regarding FS-103.  

Found this one in my buddy's spare change, same place I got lucky and found the 1942 LWC DDO FS-103.  I know improperly annealed planchets are difficult at best to discern at times.  I read some of Fred Weinberg's comments on other forums, some error-ref info., and a previous post by Karen Holcomb here on the NGC forum from back in 2018.  It seems that the consensus is that if the edge of the coin exhibits its true clad layers, and does not show any signs of ED on those layers meaning it doesn't appear to be the same coloration of the obverse or reverse surfaces, then there is a possibility it's a true IA (along with some other identifying criteria).  I've read they can come in numerous different color schemes depending on several  factors going on at the mint.  I don't have a scale of any sorts handy at the moment which would possibly help, still on vacation, but this one caught my eye enough that I thought I'd post it to see what ya'll think.  The reverse color is not quite as rose colored as it appears in the pic but it does have a slight rose tinge to it.  The obverse is pretty much spot on with its color in my pic and the edge is still nice and reeded for a 21 year old dime and clearly shows its clad layers.  I'm on the fence on this one and just not seeing that it is PMD. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.   

Meant to throw this link in here from another forum with some info from Fred Weinberg.  https://www.cointalk.com/threads/2017-d-new-jersey-ellis-island-improper-annealing.307775/

On 8/5/2021 at 10:56 AM, ronnie stein said:

Forgot, just kidding by the way. Luckiest man I know, what will you find next, suspenseful. 

Too funny.  As luck would have it, there was also a 1941 LWC doubled die in the pile of change!  Unfortunately, someone had taken a pair of what looked like bolt cutters and made a horrid cut into the dang Cent!  Go figure.......... At least it wasn't a 43' copper or I would have definitely puked......

On 8/5/2021 at 8:32 AM, DWLange said:

From the few photos posted it appears to be FS-103, rather than 102.

You are correct.  I copy and pasted the FS # in the title of this post and just now realized that I copied the wrong #.....  It is FS-103, that's what I believed it to be all along.  Thank you very much for catching my mistake and I'll try to figure out how to change the title.  

On 8/4/2021 at 6:05 PM, Jason Abshier said:

@GBradI thought the coin was really dirty or something that would be the only time I would use ultrasonic cleaner.  Your coin in the picture isn’t too bad , I’ve heard of stories ultrasonic cleaner vibrates too hard leaves hairlines and washed out look on a coin due to the soap that was used . I know a few people who metal detect for coins the use ultrasonic cleaner on old buried coins problem is the the coin rattles around inside while it’s vibrating.

The one thing I haven’t gotten around to trying is a heavy dose of olive oil in a small pot of hot boiling water remove small pot from stove then put the coin in let it soak for 10-15 minutes see if it loosen up some of the dirt if not might take it longer … I don’t think the heat of the boiling water is not a high enough heat to bend copper or silver coin they require much higher heat than boil water so I don’t think there no harm but the heat of water and olive oil might help speed up the process to soften up the gunk to make it easier to remove the reason I was thinking of boiling water instead of just using hot tap water, is to boil out the impurities in tap water also the hotter the water the faster it should evaporate off the coin maybe this weekend I’ll experiment with a handful of dirty gunky coins see how it turns out 

Thanks Jason for your comment. I really appreciate it man. My coin turned out pretty decent as I was able to remove the build-up to inspect it more closely to determine it was in fact the DD I thought it was.  The olive oil, before I removed it from the Cent (I didn’t wipe it off…..) made it look much better than before I did anything to it. I may very well soak/coat all my Linc’s in olive oil, haha   The hot water idea I believe has it’s merits for situations like this. By no means am I an expert, but I would like to think I have some common sense (a lot of people say otherwise), and I don’t see any reason why the method you proposed wouldn’t be a safe way to remove crud when you need to further examine and confirm the validity of a copper. But then again….. if it was a MS coin it would most likely not have the amount of junk on it that mine did and I would leave it alone completely. Let us all know how your experiment turns out. I may very well try it out myself.  Thanks!

[You know there are some folks shaking their heads right now…] 😆

A pretty worn out and circulated Cent, and looks to be a LDS, but I believe it's now confirmed. I just wanted to go ahead to see if this was the real thing and went ahead and took some Extra Virgin Olive Oil and a toothpick and lightly removed the buildup in the key areas to identify whether or not it was what I thought it was (good suggestion as it didn't damage anything at all).  Here's some pics you can see the subtle doubling on IN, the G and definitely the first T in TRUST.  I know VKurtB's brain is itching right now if he read this post as he commented a long time ago he couldn't believe the stuff I look at (or for)..... or something like that..... But to find a penny that "if" it was in MS condition it could be worth $500 + is pretty exciting to me at least. Hey.... I am a variety collector and enjoy it. I like any and all beautiful coins as well.  I love the hunt and you never know what you may find just laying around.  Not that I am going to sell it but heck, it's still a $40 or $50 penny!

Here's a couple of pics of the Cent. You can clearly see the doubled eyelid for this variety.  The spread is consistent with this named DDO even though there are several DDO's for this year.  My iPhone XR died on me awhile back which took excellent pics especially with a 10x loupe held up against the camera lens for close-ups.  All I have now is a crappy iPhone 6 and good closeups are very difficult with this phone even with a loupe.  Once I can clean up IGWT I will know better if in fact it is FS-01-1942-102