KarenHolcomb

Ok. Well I can see that we are experience some big time miscommunication here and I am going to chalk that up to my many typos. 

Allow me to reiterate or maybe just start all over.

I hadn't a spooning clue what this coin was when I received it. I had never, ever, ever seen one in real life that I could hold in my hand.. When my friend sent me the photos which are the same as the ones I created this posting with because I did not physically have it in my possession at that time, I really thought it'd be bigger than a US Half Dollar. Ok? Now maybe you see just how ignorant I was on this type of coin and any like it. 

Again, I am dyslexic and often times I mix numbers up. So when I was trying to research it I was likely looking at 1236 and 1263 congruantly and well, there wasn't anything to be found about AH 1236 Morocco.  So I tried to figure out what was up in that region at AH 1236, which I think must have been ruled by the Mongols. Spoon! Idek at this point but I do know that the Mongols were there and remember that I was looking at the totally wrong year one minute and the right year the next and the two were overlapping inside my head so nothing was making sense. And that's where the whole Mongolian thing creeped in here. 

As soon as I had the coin in hand I weighed it and measured it across with a freaking Stanley Tape Measure to get you the size as close as I could. I was quite shocked by how small it was compared to how I had imagined it being. And then I read that the average weight of a Moroccan 4th Standard(whatever that is) 1 dirhem in AH 1263 is 2.82gms. I'm also reading about half dirhems and quarter dirhems etc etc and assume since mine is half the expected weight it must be a half dirhem. To me that was logical. I suppose logic doesn't always apply because then you think I am questioning you and I wasn't, at all. I will have you know that I copied everything you said about Moulay Abd'al-Rohman and zarb/durian and Marrabish and all that you said so I would have it at hand to do this research that I am trying to do. And FYI there are 4 of those guys and dates seem to run backwards so that confuses things even more. At least for me.

And this is getting too long. I am not questioning your knowledge and your ability to know where to look for the information I need. I am saying that I do not have the knowledge of where to look. I straight up Google searched 'AH 1263 Moroccan 4th Standard dirhem of the Moulay Abd'al Rohman' and still can't find one like this and while a value would be fantastic all I really want is to see a photo of another coin exactly like mine. 

That's it. I just want to see a picture of an exact mate. That's all I wanted from the start. To know that it is real. Authentic. And not stolen. Ok? 

I bet if you look you'll find that AH 36 = 1820/21 October 9th. Then maybe you can kind of grasp what we go through and how things can get all jumbled when looking at 2 years from 2 periods and think you're looking at one. 

I won't ask for any more help. Sorry if I upset you. 

On 8/7/2019 at 8:16 AM, Greenstang said:

Karen-

You might get a better response if you listed this in the "US World and Ancient Coin" Forum.

I'm sure there are members there that don't look at this Forum who may be able to help. I know that I have very little knowledge on Ancient coins as I am sure most who participate here don't have.

I'm sorry. I am just now seeing your response. I did indeed post the the other forum before I actually had it in hand. Thanks a bunch.

1 hour ago, JKK said:

I can be wrong about many things. That's why I said that if I made a mistake, I'd like to know. I'm not omniscient. Feel free to question anything I say. Of course, I'll take that more seriously when it has evidential support.

Those are the catalog numbers in the catalog where I looked it up (and in response to your query, went all the way back and looked it up all over again to make sure, then went to Numista to make absolutely sure I wasn't wrong on the denomination). By handing them to you, I am giving you (or anyone) the key identifiers to use in attempting to refute or uphold my ID.

I know I went back and proofread my last response. How did all those o's wind up where I's should have been? 

So yeah, I think it is about to go into that basket. Catalogs? Would that be Sears or JC Penneys? Really? I am just glad somebody gets it cause I sure don't.

19 minutes ago, JKK said:

It looks like C#140c.1 or C#140c.4. If you seek those out and your coin doesn't seem to match them, then maybe I'm wrong about some aspect. It is also possible that there were numbers between these that used to be in Krause (or whatever the C# pre-Krause was). Don't know for sure. If you think I made a mistake, I'd love to know what your source is.

With alphabets, much is orientation. Your coin's reverse is rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise. I'm not fluent in Arabic, but what's on your coin is the Arabic abjad (alphabet).

AH 1263 was about 1846-47 CE. I don't claim to be an expert on Mongol history. If you decide to research it, maybe you'll turn up some reason why Mongols should in some way, any way, be associated with this coin. If so, please let me know where you found it, as it would absolutely fascinate me.

Oh no! Its you are wrong about anything. O just wondered if it could be a half instead of a whole based on the weight. I think I have always taken your thoughts as correct, even when you start out by saying you really don't know much about...., and you never even said that on this one so I know that you are confident a nd then too so am I, dear Sir. 

I am absolutely lost here and have no idea what I am even doing. The more I read the worse it gets. So you guys are the only thing even keeping me going with this. I would have given up already and tossed it in with my other one in my 'I haven't a clue basket' and there it would set for me to forget about. So please don't ever think that I would question your knowledge, dear Sir. Okie dokie? I put great value to everything you say. So stop being a spoon already, lol! 

Now that that's out of the way...what the heck is C#140.1 and 4? Is that referring to that 4th standard deal or am looking dumber with each of my responses?

9 hours ago, Lisae228 said:

My nickels are green n corroded...I put them in some mild soap n water..I hope I didn't mess them up... But they look better, not great but I was lucky enough to have them after Katrina so I'm not complaining.. can I do anything to them that won't damaged them

Get yourself an Ultrasonic Cleaner. I just reordered one and haven't recd it yet but several guys here say they are pretty cool. You can also soak them in oil. I had been told Olive oil but then someone said it spoils and hurts the coin. Whatever you do, don't believe the hype about Verdi-gone or whatever it's called. Complete waste of money and it isn't cheap. Imo.

I was going to say anything. Thanks!

So I did quite a bit of looking today and let me just say, JKK, that idk how you were able to dicipher any of the markings on this thing. I had alphabets from several periods in front of me andd couldn't make heads or tales of what the markings on my coin even are. Smh! Something I do wonder is if this is supposed to be part of a 'tree'? But one site said that these are usually barrell shaped as mkne is but most of what I see online are pretty much round. Also, I don't wanna challenge you because I know you know your spoon, but it seems most dirham weights( I guess that's how they are referred to) weighed in more the same as our Cent. Mine being 1.47gms and the typical dirhem of the era was about 2.82gms, then wouldn't this one be a half dirhem? Also, the reason I too turned toward the Mongols was because of the year. It doesn't seem like 1263 was anything other than the Mongols but idk because it does get awfully confusing when you've even thought about that kind of stuff. Incredibly interesting, but confusing all the same. Od course I could still be mixing the 1236/1263 up again but still can't find anything prior to 1268 or 1238. I think I must be mixing them up because that didn't make sense as I was keying it, 1238 was all I wanted it enter. I hate this disorder! It makes everything more difficult and so much time gets wasted.

On 8/9/2019 at 7:58 PM, Trevor40 said:

Karen, I apologize, I after we talked I ate a power bar & was going to break & woke to the smell of my wife cooking. I’ve been overdoing it lately. I’m glad JKK could help & by influence of Mongolia and Greek, with this date both those countries controlled the known world at some point. I have many small Roman coins with the same like mixture of gibberish and actual language, but that was just at glance and first guess. The website I gave you had your exact coin but in 1299. I’m happy you figured it out, I’m the same way about tracing something. I have some ani isn’t coins that some archaeologists can’t tell me anything about them, though I know they’re real. I lived in the Ukraine for 6 years as a child MK & have many coins with that writing & somehow the Russian translators we had at the time explained the old slavics or “huahall” as they called them and the mixture of cultures Pakistani and Indian Sand---script. This the crazy maze looking designs. Some of these are real, but I have truly legit ancients from their sources that do not look as well as some on those sights and your silver coin... sorry, thats why I warned you. Silver did not last for trade so they usually during this time used brass etc. the Chinese actually had to shape the coins with the round brass coins and a square in the middle because it was sacredly how the ancients thought the world looked like & finally trade ensued. Any who, I had the chance as a Ukrainian MK child to buy an ancient gold coin with this type writing & I used my Russian friend because if they knew you were Americann the price automatically changed somehow lol. It was $20 & I begged my parents for it at the time, but little did I know we were surviving on $20 a month because of the economy & time period. Thus, I jokingly bring up to my parents the price I find on these coins and back then gold and silver were rarely used except by kings, rulers, & dignitaries so not many exist and they’re mostly in Museums. Having lived both places I can attest the Chinese can fake/reproduce almost anything & I mean very well. The Russians lately have gotten better as technology does I assume. I do have real contacts through churches etc. if you’d really like a coin because I can get some very similar, but they’ll be real, let me know. I’ll check for any doubles as well. In the ‘90s when I came back here I tried grading these coins and most would turn me down thus I have an ancient collection ungraded, but researched by me. Two of my favorite coins is I have a silver shekel that came from the time period that Judas betrayed Jesus with. I also have what. Is called “the widows mite”. If you remember the story of the old wouthat gives the last cents at there time and everyone complained in the church during the apostles time period and the apostle rebuked everyone and said that she gave more than all of them because that was the last of what she had etc. I like these two coins and they recently found an coin in Israeli archeology with Isaiah’s name on it. Profound. I’d love to get one, but much of their true history was destroyed. I was blessed to be able to help at some digs and that is were I obtained those Roman coins. They allowed me to keep them.  I’ve led a blessed life, but God was able to reach and bless many through my parents ministry and the childish resentments I had not being able to be in real school with real kids and home school. I can tell you this though, when I hit college here, I was taken aback how far we are with information being taught. So, the greatest gift home schooling gave me was a lesson on how to teach myself. That’s what it’s all about anyway. History is so white washed it’d blow your mind some truths I’ve come to find myself. Karen, God Bless you & I’ll look for you something ligit but may not be silver or gold..... what the victors inscribed in metal coins etc. a lot of times is the passion behind my hobby, because history told to us is through the victors and this much history has to be found which is sad because we as humans seem to continue this process and not learn from the past.....

Not that this is all I took from your response, but are you saying that you think my coin is fake? 

On 8/9/2019 at 10:40 PM, JKK said:

AH 1263 was roughly 1846 CE, just in case there's anyone participating here who did not realize it.

I thought it was 1820/21 but being dyslexic I have more than once looked up 1236 instead so I bet 1236 is 1820/21?

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

PLEASE remember, Karen of Charleston, that while this last bit I posted here is well known, my own theory of the existence of THREE or more types of 1970-S dates is, as we sit here, only that, MY PERSONAL theory. Do not expect anyone to necessarily agree. It is on my list of things to prove after I retire. Maybe "Bellman's Variety"? Who knows.

Hey, I just make notes and notes and notes from what people say, and try to keep them organized so they will help me when needed. Plus, nobody ever agrees with me anyway so I'm used to that.

They don't look too bad. Ive seen a lot worse. Don't rub on or clean your coins if it can be avoided. Especially ones that don't already look bad from contact with other objects. As long as the coin is well struck without much wear it is potentially valuable.

Silver is enough of a reason. Have you seen the rate lately. It's also not in terrible condition. Not great either, but still a Keeper. Somebody is gonna need it for their set.

Looks like! Nice find. I never find anything cool that's already known. 

18 hours ago, Trevor40 said:

Hi Karen, I found many examples of your new coin. If you download the reverse picture search app Sherlock and use Yandex when it searches you’ve hit the mother load...

 

i hope this helps.... God Bless

Wrong post, but what the back is Yandex? I lost my google lens with this new phone and didnt know of there were other apps that did tbe same thing. Thanks.

6 hours ago, Lisae228 said:

Every time I try to attach a pic....it says I exceed the limit...so I didn't want to bombarde y'all with a bunch of pics...lol..I'mma keep trying to figure it out..I have a new phone..I'm adjusting...sorry

Yup. I exceed their limits all the time. Or try to. Usually if it won't accept it in the main post it will in the comments. We don't mind photo overload, at least I sure dont.

1 hour ago, JKK said:

The weight is correct for a Moroccan 4th Standard dirham of the Moulay Abd'al-Rahman period. Fez Hazrat and Marrakesh are possible mints. I see the zarb/zuriba on the mint side, and the legible writing below it is consistent with coins attributed to Marrakesh. I can't speak to its authenticity, but rest assured there is minimal Greek influence and zero Mongolian. There is no good reason to believe that the given date, AH 1263, is a counterstamp.

Ok. Thanks. See, I thought Morocco and originally was calling it a Falus Fas or something similar. It's just that other than the one sort of match I did find was a Dirham so I figured that was correct but be darned if I could find another like it. I have seriously put in the effort too, as must be evident by my turning to the Mongols and others. I thought perhaps it was counter stamped for no other reason than that it must be fake and idk why else. Just grasping, I suppose.This information along with the links above can surely get me to my destination. I did manage to figure out the year on my own, so that's something. If indeed I even got that right. Thanks a bunch! I'm going to get on it again as soon as the VA answers their phone. Grrr...

3 hours ago, Trevor40 said:

It’s definitely on those sites in Russia & they’re about as bad as the Chinese at the fakes. I’ll try to find but with ancients it’s difficult because they snipped them and struck them in evenly etc. I’m knee deep in my grandma’s estate coins & will help definitely find it soon.

Ima keep at it. But a person can only look at so many at a time before going crosseyed. Lol

3 hours ago, JKK said:

Until you are willing to measure and weigh it, I don't recommend that. Those are basic data and it is needlessly frustrating to research such coins without them.

Ok. Someo e already said my new scope is useless but it is suppose to measure too. We shall see. I can tell you that it weighs in at 1.47gms and basically 3/4 ofan inch or close to 19mm.

5 hours ago, Trevor40 said:

It looks like Egyptian hieroglyphs, I have some ancients, but more resembles a mixture of Mongolian/Chinese. Very similar. My best guess would be when Greek had greater influence on those areas. I’ll find it. Very nice !!!

I looked at a buttload of No Mongolians also. Thank you for the info. Everything will get me closer.

8 hours ago, Dukemnm said:

I believe that date is AH as opposed to AD. not sure how to explain the date difference but not, I dont think it was added later. The 1263 AH  would put it around 1846 AD. 

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-calendar.htm

Also Here is a link that might help you in your information quest by our host.

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/morocco-1-2-dirham-y-4-1299-1314-cuid-1129472-duid-1441723

one thing that would be great is if you can document the dimensions and weight. 

here is a link to an Ebay listing of something similar. https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/morocco-1-2-dirham-y-4-1299-1314-cuid-1129472-duid-1441723

And Lastly, here is one graded by our host that looks very similar to yours. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2636502-146/NGCDetails/

hope this helps. and don't forget to get dimensions, It might help authenticate before sending in, ig that is your plan. 

 

 

 

Thanks duke. Ha! I usually have Dude but you are so close. I think the AH 1263 is like 1820-1821AD. But so.ebody else also said 1840 something. Thanks for the links. I wish I could find that eBay one again, it was identical except the date. 

On 8/1/2019 at 1:36 PM, JKK said:

I would figure it out for you but without weight and diameter it is problematic.

Hey JKK. I just ordered a new scope that ia suppoed to do measurements too.i am really having a time with this coin. I am beginning to think it is just another fake and nobody wants to tell me. Do you think maybe the 1263 was added later as a kind of counter stamp? That one 1268 I found on eBay has been the only other one I've found at all and I can't even find it now. You wouldn't have any suggestions of some other forum I could post it in?

That they are. If you really like them a Lot yu should Google search the 1990 proof Eisenhower 100th Set. You can pick it up for about 20 bucks. I am in love with mine.

13 hours ago, Tridmn said:

If I did that, all the 82s I've found... I would have like 3lbs of it. Lol

Well, by golly, come the Zombie Apocalypse you'll wish you had put all that Copper up for the Zombie Apocalypse. Lol!

12 minutes ago, Beginner 76 said:

Hi what do you mean the picture incomplete. I can take few more if you need to

 

7 minutes ago, Beginner 76 said:

Thanks. I'll try again. 

You're doing fine. This is how we all learned.

49 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

You can immediately dismiss as a small date any 1970-S on which the mintmark is low. The "high and tight" mintmark is not by itself a guarantee of a SD, but the lack of it is a disqualifier.

Well you're just full of good information today. I do looove to learn.