Insider

Images from the camera are now in our photo room computer! They will be emailed to me next week - promised by Wednesday at the latest. Then, I will post my first experiment - an ugly toned Morgan imaged flat and tilted 1/4 inch. You will be able to tell which is which because you'll see the piece of metal I used to tip the coin. Both images are in focus so depth of field was no problem. When I tipped the coin 1/2 inch, it was still in complete focus; however the reflection of light into the camera brightened the coin too much and it did not look as good. Incidentally, when I asked the woman who takes our images to teach me how to use our setup, she knew all about tipping a coin in the light because she often does it! Therefore, I have proved to my 100% satisfaction that a coin does not need to be FLAT to take a sharply focused image. [Self Edit ] Anyway, I hope some of you might agree. I'll take absolutely NO CREDIT AT ALL for the images. Our imaging equipment did it all. I put the coin in the light box, centered it with the mouse, and punched a few keys. Once I was shown how the computer worked, It took less than fifteen minutes to take 14 images. No images were modified in any way from the single shot I took of each coin. After I post the Morgan, I'd like to know what the experts think and which image is better, tipped or flat. Then my quiz ("TIPPED OR FLAT") will follow. I did not play with the lighting at all. All coins were taken in the same orientation. Four slabbed $10 Liberties graded MS-63 by one of the top two services are imaged. Dates are 1893, 1894, 1900, 1901. You will be shown the four coins and asked to tell if the slab was flat under the lens or tipped 1/4 inch. There will be 12 images in all, four at a time to eliminate any LUCKY GUESSES!

I have heard several different #'s and it depends on the tier. For example, the guys grading "moderns" or SE probably are expected to grade more coins than a vintage coin grader. I'll bet the true numbers are kept a secret. I've NEVER been told that I must grade X - coins a day. What I have heard: 400 to 800+

AFAIK with permission most graders can still buy coins. You do not want to sell a coin graded by your company, otherwise you can sell coins. I've never had a problem at any company I worked for. This may not be true for other services. As to the rest of your question, I don't have a clue about pop reports or coin values. However, I tend to know the rare varieties. Also, after being teased for several years about grading a coin as I see it - thus turning a "commercial" $600 Morgan into a $1600 coin - I often check a Graysheet for the grade bump line. IMO, this is one of the problems with grading. You cannot grade a true MS-64 coin MS-64 because for that particular date, mint AND VALUE it must be a no question MS-64+++! That's why I teach that virtually any normal person of any age - say between 8 and 80 can learn to grade a coin with proper instruction - it's easy! I also teach that it takes many years of experience and market savvy to learn to place a COMMERCIAL GRADE (VALUE) on a coin. That's what the TPGS graders claim to do. Thankfully, I was not hired to put values on coins. BTW I spoke with a Ex-TPG from a top two service this week. I feel sorry for their employees. I could NEVER properly grade the volume of coins they are expected to process a day. Heck, I have the luxury of taking images, diagnostics, and researching any coin I wish. We even get Russian metals that I need to translate in order to ID them for the slab label. They take more than a few seconds to authenticate & grade. The major services have folks who do all the attribution work before the coin gets to the grading room. The graders just grade them - quickly.

I hope you decide to take my depth of field test! I really hope one other member does too. Additionally, I'd appreciate any critical comments on my (actually the digital camera's) full coin images from the experts.

Probably not gradflation. Mostly because of the common price for 60-62 grades of many coin types. I don't have time to discuss the AU-58 grade right now. I've said/written many times that the folks who wrote the ANA standards (their so called "technical grading") screwed up the grading system forever by combining marks and wear in the circulated grades (choice/typical)! Then the commercial graders who buy and sell coins included VALUE into the TPG system to bastardize a coin's condition further and we have the mess we have today + CAC stickers.

Franklin said we gave you a Republic if you can keep it. An informed citizen is the key. That is accomplished by a free Press. Unfortunately the Press has failed us all because there is more info about our country in the foreign press. Fortunately, some folks can disagree 100% with each other (for whatever their reason) and still talk coins. I look forward to meeting them in person at the FUN Show.

I get the camera Friday after work. Just now, I've taken 3 minutes to have them do a test for me. I'm grinning from ear to ear as I'm going to post a quiz next week for the digital photography experts here. I'm calling it "Tipped or Not Tipped"

MS-60 is rarely used anymore.

No, a majority of $20 Saints appear to have rub! Loss of luster on the high points of these coins is usually from "stacking pressure." That's the way it should be; however, on occasion a beat up MS coin is graded AU-something (not by me) to reflect its lower value. If there is one contact mark, tiny spot, or hairline (on a PR) it is not a 70 anymore. However, the TPGS MAY get around ignoring tiny spots on a coin they grade 70 because the SE are not guaranteed for environmental defects. Yes the 67's had lots of hits. One place to always check are the letters. Not at all. IMO, you are a fine addition to any coin forum. I have little tolerance for misinformation from members who are uninformed; folks who do not answer direct questions; and those who leave a discussion because (for whatever the reason) they don't choose to back up their opinion.

Mark, I'm very Liberal! I tolerate those who don't deserve it but only up to a point. Now, I'll go back and read that post as you have suggested. I always accept instructions from more knowledgeable folks. After that, I'm going to sign off for the day.

Only in the auction business (?) or with LIBERAL graders or at a liberal TPGS. I've heard a rumor that dealers expect a certain % of SE to grade 70 in a large submission. The ONLY thing I can maintain goes on at my desk.

Read the title LIBERAL! A person of liberal principals or views as in grading or ducking questions. Liberals exist on both siders OF EVERYTHING!!! My bakery is liberal with the sugar crystals - thank God. Now please loosen your - never mind, the liberal snowflakes don't understand humor.

IMO, the line between 69 and 70 is very easy to determine an teach. ONE FLAW and the coin is not perfect. Very minor Mint-made defects may be ignored by some folks. In my experience, upgrades from 69 very rarely happens. It does happen. Last month we had a submission of over 400 SE graded 69 by a top TPGS. I found 3 that I could honestly grade 70. Most were correctly graded as 69's. Several coins were our 67's and over thirty were our 68's. To the naked eye, I'd guess at least 200 coins looked like 70's but the were not and were correctly graded as 69's. I am the first to tell anyone that you are throwing away your money trying to upgrade a 69 to a 70.

Question? If I show you a coin in a field you collect, would you be able to grade it without any influences from the market?

I know what's going on in the real world as far as coin grading. I was there then and I'm still hanging in. I also know what a "standard" is. At one time the "standard" for a Mint State coin was very clear and very easy to determine. I didn't change it and I couldn't stop it. If you check the record of everything I wrote that was published, you can confirm that. Coins are either MS or they are not. THAT STANDARD HAS NEVER CHANGED so in reality the standard for MS never changed. It is still very easy to determine. In fact, the newest edition of the ANA's Grading Guide still clings to the MS standard of 'NO TRACE OF WEAR." What changed was that standard was ignored more and more almost from the First Edition of the Guide for a number of different reasons. As you point out, money is one of them.

I can.

I don't think anyone posting in your discussion ASSUMED ANYTHING! I do think that at least two posters in this thread are interested in what you think the answer is. One of them has asked you TWICE with no response yet. I hope you don't go the way of Liberals who like to duck honest questions. I would even be happy with this answer from a Liberal: "I " don't chose to answer your question. "

This is a discussion about grading not photography. I do understand your need to use examples from something you are knowledgeable about; however, there are several numismatic publications that show what a PFA is on specific coins and all the publications mostly agree. Perhaps, if you read those publications you might agree that a particular coin's PFA is not subjective at all.

As of now, I'm still in the "dog house for the ignorant" as it is already Wed. and I have not been able to fool with the companies cameras. I'm afraid I will remain in this position until I produce some full coin images. Don't give up on me, I wish to be proven correct or not. I will post something as soon as I can but for now my mouth is full of crow (CHOKE, CHOKE, GURGLE) until I produce some images,

You still have not answered this! A standard can be defined. It is a set standard. In your example, as the science of measurement improved, the way to measure the standard changed. The same has happened to grading. The powerful folks determining the standard changed. Nevertheless, let's consider the obsolete standard of MS = no trace of wear. The unchanging data from the coin at the minute it is graded will indicate it either is MS or not. However, the subjectivity of the examiner (and all that involves such as magnification, greed, etc...) allows subjectivity to enter the equation. All the people that grade coins are not the same. Lots of collectors rely on the TPGS.

But even "technical grading" without regard to market conditions can be subjective. Thinking about it, you are correct but not as subjective as you might think. Remember, the grading called "Technical Grading" by the ANA when they moved the authentication service to CO WAS NOT! No one out there had a clue about the system I devised but the "name" sounded good.

LOL. I can move the light/lights or move the coin. Furthermore, I posted the images in gray so no one could complain BUT I should have known better.

I apologize. When I read something written by someone with a genius IQ, I have no clue what they wrote.

Did I miss something? Is any one besides me waiting for Roger to post his opinion of the two words! Roger: What defines a "Conservative" or "Liberal" coin grader Thanks!

PS If things go my way (depth of field on a full coin),I'm going to post a great quiz using a digital camera that I'll call TIPPED OR NOT . Otherwise, I'll thank all of you for teaching me about digital photography and apologize for being so stubborn. .