GoldFinger1969

So I'm reading Chapter 4 and how Mint Curator T. Louis Comparette is securing some "tough to obtain" (i.e., they weren't supposed to be released) 1920 Saints for a museum and collectors. 

Quick, someone notify the Mint and Secret Service, maybe they want to question his corpse !!  

I'm referring, of course, to their obsession about the "unauthorized" release of 1933 DE's.

OK, back to the book....need to make a big dent today if I want to finish by next weekend.....weekends are strictly for reading the Saint book and BARRON's. 

13 minutes ago, Lev99 said:

This thread is awesome!!!  Thanks to OP for starting it and thanks to @RWB for posting about his book. I don't collect DE but it sounds like there's a lot of other information in the book I'll have to check it out. 

@RWB I was soooper curious how you find your source information? Is it you are you sitting in the ANA library everyday, or are you firing off FIOA requests to some lonely custodian of records in the basement at the treasury dept? I never would have thought to check out books on banana wars, or that there was a Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce that existed, let alone put together tables to pull information on coins from. 

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I've studied a little on European and US trade during and right after WW2 and I can't find the answers I'm looking for. It's a real struggle. I sorta gave up but apparently you figured out a good way to find this information.

 

Lev, glad you are enjoying it.  I think my questions and comments are adding something, and Roger is gracious enough to chime in when he can.  He's fantastic...so's the book !! 

Lev, if you want I can probably write down some of the sources that Roger uses in the book...many are listed in the footnotes, which are very good....he may also have a bibliography at the end (I don't know, haven't skipped ahead that far ).  I do believe that Roger uses the Neuman Coin Portal but how to access stuff there is beyond me.

Speaking as an economics and finance guy, some of the sources that he uses for gold flows and trade data look very authoritative.  They are largely from before modern economic statistics were kept by the BEA and Commerc Department, but still very good data.  Central bank records at that time HAD to be accurate, since so much $$$ were at stake.

I'll let Roger respond first, but if you want me to put down some of the sources that he uses that repeat most often, let me know.

I wonder how many Saints back then would get MS70 and MS69 right off the mint press vs. today....look at how near-perfect so many of the 2009 UHRs came out.  We've come along way with technology, metallurgy, polished finishes, etc.

Yeah, that's got to be 20-30x power.  I may buy a more powerful lens just to study mint marks and/or close-ups of die cracks.   My current lenses are good for looking for major imperfections when I'm considering buying a coin.

I think on the 1915-S section I just finished you actually used the phrase "steel failure" for the first time (it was implied elsewhere).  These dies are pretty small I take -- a few inches ? -- and to take 150 tons of striking pressure thousands of time....well, that's alot of force to absorb.

BTW, it seems like any striking imperfections in the coins get called a die crack.  I think this takes away from legit "errors" or major imperfections, like a double strike on a mint mark....or a major wiggly line in the same place before they either repair or replace a die. 

But that's just me.  They're interesting to see and study, but I'm not sure I would catalog them based on that (and certainly not pay more $$$ for the varieties).  JMHO.

Roger, what magnification is the book using to look at the die cracks and mint marks ?  I just finished the 1915-S chapter and I have that coin but my 8x mag couldn't really show me anything on the "S".

Got it...I think.   Thanks, Roger.

5 hours ago, RWB said:

Regulations required 2 people present to enter a vault, but not necessarily Mint Officers. In daily work the vault custodian and his assistant came and went largely at-will and it appears that the 2-person rule was often ignored.

You mean 1 of the locks was left open ?  Or maybe both ?  Or that the asst would give his key to the Cashier so he could go to the Vault with both keys ?

If both guys are personally liable for any theft, I would think neither would want anybody but themselves opening the lock unless that other person was their spouse or sibling. 

I'm beginning to understand how these guys lost an entire bag of 1928 DE's. 

5 hours ago, RWB said:

By the time of the 1933 DE fiasco, McKernan was dead.

Do you know when he died ?  Not seeing an obit or Wikepedia entry.

2 hours ago, TetonJoe said:

A quick sort shows top 100 are worth about $53,000. Top 250 about $82,000. Really interested in that 80/10 rule.

OK....I'm pressed for time now, will have to look at the entire inventory later (plus, I'm not an expert on these types of coins).

But that said....the Top 100 coins are worth an average of $530.  The Top 250 are worth an average of $328.  That means the next 150 (coins 101-250) are worth about $193 on average.

I would keep going up to the point where the coins fall BELOW $100 per.  That is probably about 350-500 coins.  Spend most of your effort THERE.....get 70-85% of FMV for those coins....then get 30% or 40% or whatever you can on the rest. 

We're all different, but if it were ME....I would rather dump the 2nd grouping at 35% FMV and get all the $$$ up front....rather than sell them over a long period of time with all the headaches, hassles, and time & effort.  If you knew FOR SURE that you'd get closer to 70% FMV, then yeah, maybe it's worth it.  But if the 2 choices are 30-35% right NOW.....vs....40% dribbled out over 9 months (maybe longer).....I'll take the former.

TJoe, it would help if you gave us a ballpark figure for what we are talking about:

(1)  How much do you think the ENTIRE collection is worth ?  Or better yet, what you would accept.

(2)  How much do you think the Top 50 or Top 100 or Top 250 coins are worth.

If 80% of the value is in 10% of the coins, or if a higher % is in even a smaller number of coins, this changes your gameplan.

On 4/9/2020 at 11:18 AM, RWB said:

The United States Secret Service (the abbreviation "SS" brings up a jack-boot and skull image) had Edward McKernan, Vault Custodian, as it's prime focus. USSS agents were Frank Burke and E.O. Shreve.  It was decided that a bag of 1928 DE went missing between June 1933 and 1936. McKernan was the suspect because he had unlimited access to the vaults, although by rule he was always to be accompanied by another employee

(1)  Why wasn't McKernan considered a possible accomplice to Israel Switt's "theft" of 1933 DE's ?

(2)  I thought that the Vault (and maybe the Cashier's stache) had double-locks and you needed 2 VIPs to unlock them to enter the area ?  Maybe not the Cashier's area, but I know I remember you needed 2 people to access the vault from FMTM.

2 hours ago, TetonJoe said:

How would we catch any generally high value or rare coins if we batch them and use our lowest values for pricing? In other words, we don't know what we're missing that might be of high value. 

I'm not sure, but either (1) you need to check them out yourself and/or (2) you need them graded by a TPG.

It might pay to spend some time on the best coins and then submit them "in bulk" to a TPG for grading.  I'm going to assume some of your coins have condition rarity and having them certified as such will pay for itself.

BTW, I take it none or very few have been professionally graded by a TPG ?

22 minutes ago, thebeav said:

Quite simply, good stuff sells, not so good stuff doesn't help anyone......

Great point....TJoe, you should do the following:

(1)  Catalog the coins (you may have already done this)

(2)  Itemize the prices

(3)  Figure out how much of the collection's value is concentrated in the Top 50 or Top 100 or Top 500 coins.

Remember, selling 10,000 coins -- even without doing research and preparing a catalog -- is ALOT of work.  If 80% of the value is contained in 20% (or less) of the coins you and the dealer may want to proceed that way.  It may also be better for you to sell those piecemeal at GC or Ebay or via your LCSs.

Think about this.  You come into a LCS with 100 coins.  75% of the value is in 10 coins.  The LCS may give you a good deal on those coins, but he has no idea about the other 90.  So he discounts the ENTIRE cache rather than giving you 80-90% of FMV on the smaller group of 10 coins.

Now...multiply that coin stache by 100 and you see the problem of selling 10,000 coins.  Especially for World Coins which is a niche specialty with fewer dealers and fewer buyers.

You said that about 45% of the value (?) is in about 4.5% (450) of the coins worth over $100.  This is a good start.  Remember, a dealer (or an auction house) wants LIQUID and in-demand coins that can be sold easily and quickly.  Gold or silver coins have their own value....popular coins too....after that it's tougher.

Roger, was there a particular year when holdings of Liberty or Saint DE's took off in foreign country holdings, like maybe after the Panic of 1893 or 1907 ?  Or was it a gradual thing from the late-1800's as the U.S. began to eclipse the UK as the #1 economic power ?

TJoe, who or where were you thinking of selling the stache ?  I would talk to a consignment specialist.

Mark Feld works at Heritage and sometimes he pops up here on the boards.  He might be able to provide assistance.  I've only known him through the Internet but he always is helpful and those who worked with him at HA or previously at NGC say he's a straight-shooter and honest broker.

I'm not as familiar with selling as I am with buying, but to me a discount of 20-40% seems appropriate.

I think a HUGE cache of coins like you are talking about -- 10,000 coins ? -- could lead to a discount number on the high side.  It's possible that nobody wants to deal with a collection of that size because it's highly unlikely you get a buyer for the entire lot or even if you broke it into 5 or 10 lots that you would sell most of those lots.

If you had a smaller number of more liquid coins -- like rare Saints or Liberty DE's or Morgans -- then I would think the % discount would be less.

Good Luck....I do think that selling through an auction house like HA should net you a good price.

4 minutes ago, Zebo said:

 As for Saints, while I do not really collect them - I do have interest in them. 

Fantastic story behind them, just teed off I didn't learn about them before I did. 

Can not only be used as a bullion substitute for pure gold (I saw a report today about $3,000 gold !) but then you have your affordable numismatics all the way up to pricey rarities.

Zebo, British Sovereigns are just under 1/4 ounce, right ?

No need to apologize, any question that leads to more knowledge is welcome even though most of this thread has obviously focused on Roger's outstanding book.

Do you collect or have interest in Saints ?  If you do, this book is a must. 

I'm just about to get up to the year where I own that coin, the 1915-S.  After that, eagerly waiting to get up to the 1923-D, 1924, and 1927 sections.  Wish I had anxiousness to get up to the 1930's coins that are super-rare, but alas, a wee bit out of my price range.

Mexico has some weird coin weights....I think their 50 or 100 peso coin from decades ago is like 1.3 ounces or something like that.

9 minutes ago, RWB said:

RE: "This book is much much easier to read than FMTM (at least for me)."

This is a frequent observation. FMTM is about technology, operations and related matters, all of which are both obsolete and arcane. Thus, much of the language is new to readers and interrelationships are not always obvious. 

So true....the terminology and actual mechanics of making a coin are something I never have seen 1st-hand or actually read about like in a "Coin Making For Dummies" book.    

I wonder if the West Point Mint gives tours.  I'm 20 minutes away and have never been there (been to West Point, just not the Mint).

1 minute ago, RWB said:

RE: "This book is much much easier to read than FMTM (at least for me)."

This is a frequent observation. FMTM is about technology, operations and related matters, all of which are both obsolete and arcane. Thus, much of the language is new to readers and interrelationships are not always obvious. Collectors focus on objects; FMTM is focused on the things that make the objects - kind of the "metadata of coins." The CD bundled with each FMTM book is an effective way to search for subjects that might be related.

I don't recall getting a CD with the book but maybe I did.  I'll look later.  I remember you signed it so it must have come from Wizard.

Question On Mintmarks:  Roger, you go into depth on changing angles and shapes of mint marks (along with die cracks, and other minute imperfections).  Many of these you need a super-sharp eye to see OR a magnifiying glass.

Were these imperfections caused by the inability of the presses and their metal components to perfectly replicate strikes and maintain absolute perfection in lining up the rounds with the press ?  I'm thinking that compared to today's presses -- like with the 2009 Ultra High Relief coin -- you have computers and lasers assisting the dies and presses using high-tech.  Look at how many MS70's and MS69's the presses can create today.

I'm also wondering if today's presses use stronger metals (or combinations of metals) like alloys or titanium or aluminum.  I presume that in the early-1900's they just had steel or iron for the key striking elements.  If maintaining a smooth surface on the die was the key to avoiding die cracks, then simple iron or steel might not be hard enough to withstand 150 tons of pressure tens of thousands of times.

I'm sure we must have better/stronger metals today than 100+ years ago.

12 hours ago, RWB said:

The Central/South American countries have also had very divisive economic/political structures - a few of privilege and wealth at the top and the rest barely surviving. (The key to a stable country is a large, productive meddle class.)

Yup, and what we Americans have (thankfully) never experienced is that in Europe (due to wars) and South/Central America (due to incompetent governments and hyperinflation) their citizens have had their entire economic bases and their savings wiped out at various times over the last century or so.  We've never had that in the U.S.

Just got to Chapter 3 and the Gold situation on World War 1.  It's a nice break from reading about coin-after-coin....like I said, it breaks the monotony.

I like the inclusion of the 2 newspaper articles announcing the closing of the NY and London stock exchanges.  Nice touch.

This book is much much easier to read than FMTM (at least for me).  Of course, I realize that was a super-indepth look at a specific operation whereas this book covers coins, the Gold Standard, and anything related to them.