GoldFinger1969

Great, let us know here if you get a chance. I want to see the 1933 in the holder. Thanks EC !

Actually....since EC's name is not known to us....I'm not sure the dealers could gouge him since they don't know his Secret Identity (like Superman/Clark Kent ). If he wants a top-flight 1932 or MCMVII HR...he can bid on HA or GC and just wait for his price. It's not like he's going to a dealer saying "Hey, I am trying to put together THE ULTIMATE Saint set and I need top coins to match my 1933 and UHR." I think EC's anonymity helps him, and the secret bidding at HA/GC also helps since unlike decades ago when you had to tell a few (close) dealers....he doesn't have to tell anybody. Good for him & Good Luck, EC !

Never thought about that. Interesting.... Although unless someone is committed to getting every/most dates, and you also knew they wanted the coins in the short-term, is that something you can see happening (being held up price-wise) ? If it's someone who's young, they might be willing to build the collection over 5 or 10 or 15 years. Tough to price-gouge if the buyer has time on their side.

Yup, they have some really nice labels. I think they add to the coin's distinctiveness. For instance, on my Saint-Gaudens Commemorative Silvers you have a nice portrait of SG.

All else equal.....no CAC sticker on either or a CAC sticker on both.....as condition rarity increases.....the PCGS premium increases. If you get lots of newcomers into this hobby...and they buy plenty of low-priced coins or moderns....and get used to the NGC holders....I can see them moving up over time to more expensive coins and not paying some of the stated premiums. It won't happen overnight, I agree.

Seems logical. Enjoy them. BTW, I'm not saying that "NGC is better now" -- only that the forces that gave PCGS a HUGE premium (especially for Trophy Coins like those sold by LN) seem to have dissipated a bit. Maybe because PCGS was the 1st TPG...maybe because NGC got a repuation for looseness 20-25 years ago...maybe it was affection for certain holders....I don't know. For whatever reason, the market decided to give nice premiums to PCGS even though you had a duopoly at the top of the TPG rankings. At least it gives us something to discuss !

I never responded to this, Roger.....MTB at the time was a pretty big gold dealer in 1983. They made their bones in the late-1970's and early-1980's. Lots of publicity in The NYT, WSJ, BARRON'S, etc. But they mostly dealt in bullion or gold coins that were maybe a small premium to spot gold. Sotheby's would have given them some "cache" to sell the more valuable, numismatic coins. MTB's normal clientele maybe couldn't or wouldn't have the $$$ to buy individual coins or a bunch of them requiring more $$$ than the normal small bullion purchases. As it turned out, Bauman of MTB was able to sell a large number of the coins to David Akers and other premium contacts who probably took the more valuable, higher-graded coins (graded by them, no TPGs for another 3-4 years).

I think that was true at one time, but I think the gap has closed. PCGS has been the subject of multiple criticisms even at the CU/PCGS forums -- with threads disappearing and individuals suspended/banned. Some of the worst examples of gradeflation have been in recent years involving PCGS and small-denomination coins (not gold or Saints). I will say this about our NGC hosts: they tolerate criticism. They don't go bonkers at the first mention of not liking their grading. I think that will benefit them in the long-run. Granted, I don't have to worry about registry points or re-sale of pricey coins, but I like what I have seen in recent years from NGC on the grading, holder, and label fronts. I actually like the modern NGC holders that I bought some modern coins in. Nice holders....the 4-prong holder is nice.....good-looking, informative color labels, too. I will go to your registery to see what the 1933 looks like in the current holder. I don't believe I have seen it. Understood. Not a registry player so I never followed these rules but I understand it's a 1-way street with PCGS. Really ? Did you re-submit many of them or did you simply only buy PCGS ?

Just curious...any thought to putting it into an NGC holder ? I mean, for such a unique coin, I don't think you need worry about any premium or discount upon resale (if ever sold).

Looks like they can't find the gold...nobody has the ship's layout schematics....I'm not sure they can launch a salvage without them...tried 30+ years ago and fruitless....well, at least they found the wine cellar : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bayerle

I don't think so....they haven't raised the $$$ or gotten the salvage equipment yet according to the September 2021 article. I think they also need to make sure that the salvage will be profitable. They want to be 100% sure that the gold/DEs are there....if not, they could take a bath financially. SSCA had 15 tons of gold; this ship may have had 45 tons. But most of it may have to be sold as bullion -- even the DEs -- which changes the calculus. Also, if for any reason the gold/DEs are spread over a large area, that increases the costs tremendously. Unlikely, but something you want to verify before spending the big $$$ on the salvage.

Imagine if you went to prison.....and were given a life sentence...and the only food they gave you was Life cereal...and the only board game you could play was The Game of Life. Truly a LIFE sentence !

I don't think you'd have the "suckers" chasing this, Roger. The SSCA in 2000 was new...it was unique...had a great story...and the internet had just started so that there still was an information void. You won't find the DEs from this shipwreck being sold at 10x market value because I think most buyers will Google what happened in the past or what comparables today sell for.....the big difference is even if sold for a nominal premium to gold bullion, that price today is 6x higher than what it was in 1999-2001. So whoever finds/gets the coins should be able to recover costs and make a decent profit just by selling the coins at FMV or spot bullion (~ 1,900/oz.)

Fascinating......you learn something new all the time here at NGC and on this thread ....I can't believe I never came across this. There definitely were DEs on that boat, but it's unclear as to whether they were Liberty's or Saints. Looks like ownership of the loot could also be in dispute.

Wow, I never heard of this....it's not even mentioned in QDB's Double Eagles Red Book which I though listed all the major shipwrecks involving DEs. Great post Cat....can NOT believe I never saw this mentioned when reading about shipwrecks, Russia, or Saint/Liberty DEs.

Congrats !! JA has a reputation for being a tough grader of gold/Saints.

I'm a bit confused as to what you are asking....but have you considered checking out Heritage Auctions and/or Great Collections for problem-free coins ?

I remember that departure from normal procedure.....but given the special nature of the coin, I'm not surprised. EC certainly had a say in that, maybe he can give us more details. Is the coin not in a holder now ? Personally, I'd be very afraid of the coin being dropped or something if I was in the habit of holding it or showing it around. And you certainly can't show it/display it as the risk is too high. But maybe it's in a double-velvet pouch or something in a vault and never moves so no risk of getting dinged.

The 1933 has a CAC sticker, right ?

For that matter...did ANYBODY here attend ? Curious what attendance was like for dealers/the public compared to pre-Covid.

Did Conder post ? I don't see it. 4 weeks is super-short to utilize a new holder design...very surprising.

Has this been looked into, in the past ? Relative to the condition in the rest of the coin (very nice! ), you wonder how that mark came about. I wonder if it was even dropped or banged-around decades ago? Doesn't look to be a bag mark/ding off the mint presses. Now, the coin spent alot of time overseas and then with Fenton so who knows what happened then....and it wasn't in a protective holder (hope you have the holder, EC !!). BTW....I think there was a debate at one point if the Farouk/Fenton/EC coin was the same as one that was called the "original" Farouk coin. I would think that this coin with a noticeable dent in the leg would be easily ID'd. Again, I don't know why some people say that the current coin is not the Original Farouk coin but I remember seeing the debate (maybe on the PCGS/CU boards?).

I don't think you can criticize the purchase. It's the ONLY 1933. If there were multiple 1933's available, then you can quibble on the choice to buy or the dollars paid. You either buy the 1933 as-is...or you don't. If you don't, you can't have The Ultimate Saint Collection in those registry rankings that some of you love (I'm not a registry guy myself, but will be watching EC's collection). Hey, if you EVER get tired of it, I'll take it off your hands. In the words of Homer Simspon...."Do you accept 3rd-party, post-dated, out-of-state checks ?"

What's a TrueView holder ? I know the TrueView pics that everybody likes (well, most of us)....what is a TrueView holder or pre-TrueView holder ?

Would love to hear EC's thoughts on the gash in the leg. Of course, defects or no defects, it's still the only legal 1933 Saint out there. Beggars can't be choosey.