GoldFinger1969

Wow, it's not a coin I am too familiar with, surprised it is that high in the (global) counterfeit rankings.

Thought it would be good to have a thread covering this where we can discuss the basics and debate their relations to grades. I'm re-reading a bunch of books so stuff I glossed over then is now something I want to fully comprehend. It's possible this stuff will be more fully explained in FMTM or another book but as it could be a while before I or someone gets there, this thread should provide a nice shortcut. While they might have details pertaining to specific coin types that I am reading now (i.e., DEs), the concepts should be applicable to any coin type. On to the 1st die striking issue... DIE SPACING: In Bowers DE book, he says that "die spacing" and not worn dies can explain lightly-struck, lightly-defined Liberty Head DEs. The coronet on Liberty's head is often lightly struck as this is the deepest part of the die (highest point of the coin). First....what specifically are we talking about with "die spacing" -- the separation between the obverse and reverse dies ? Second....planchet weight tolerances somehow figures into this, too. Double Eagles weighed a bit more with a much lower tolerance deviation than MSDs, thus resulting somehow in "sharper" strikes especially if the planchet weighted a bit more and the spacing accommodated the larger size. I'm not seeing the connection even after re-reading the passage. Bowers notes that while a heavily-used die might have "flow marks" in the fields (high points of dies, low point of coins) the Coronet on Miss Liberty (low point of die, high point of coin) would still be sharp. I get the inverse relationship, but is this saying that "high points" don't get worn like low points do ? Finally, the Type 1 Liberty Head DEs from 1859-66 are lightly struck because the hub was changed in 1859. Can someone explain why this happened ?

Good....the more for me !!! I'm like a villain in the old 1960's "Batman" TV series.....I eliminate Penguin, the Joker, Catwoman, and the Riddler.....more Saints for me !!!

Would anybody here be adding a top-notch pricey Saint or Liberty DE...or a Morgan SD ?

That's what happened in 1989-90 when a few hundred million dollars (or even less ! or more....) was believed to be hitting the market. If you assume the initial $50 MM that was raised included about $5-$10 MM for certified Saints...you're talking about a few thousand coins being scooped up which moved the market for Saint-Gaudens DEs 100% in a few months for top-quality MS-65's and 66's. Imagine if Taylor Swift announced she was into coins and told her followers it's fun and (God Forbid) they can make money too. Or a social media or software or tech or AI billionaire. Bob Simpson was an oilman, a demographic more likely to be into hard PMs and coins. But there's no law that says others can't follow.

Outside of the 1794 Dollar being the first silver dollar minted, I don't know too much about the others so anybody can feel free to provide more info on what makes them special. I take it a $50 gold "slug" is a privately minted $50 gold piece minted by California private minters during the Gold Rush ?

What makes you think "large cents" would be a big winner ? Not doubting you, just not my area of expertise. You think similar to the State Quarter program....big coins...cheap...easy for kids to collect ?

Again...YouTube and Google have been ubiquitous for decades.....why the surge in the last 2 years ?

But Google and those quarters and other items have been around for years, decades even. We've seen the flood ever since the end -- not beginning or heights -- of the pandemic. Strange that we keep getting this tsunami of misinformed treasure hunters. You would think they would at least be SUSPICIOUS that they can't possibly have a something worth 10,000x face value. If someone told me my home was the planned site of a new AI-related campus and I could see it for 500% of the current market value, I'd be suspicious by a bit.

Wouldn't it be interesting to know -- and I am sure it wasn't on Paul Wittlin's Priority List -- to know where all those coins in French and Swiss banks came from ? If it came from rural vs. city folks.....wealthy individuals vs. peasants.....low-income vs. middle-income....and maybe which countries (we know which banks but that doesn't necessarily correlate to the depositors). I agree with Zadok that this isn't critical to our hobby....but as one of my passions is learning and reading about original sources....I wish we had more info on who these people were who made the original SDB deposits. I found the otherwise "boring" and "common" 1924 Saint fascinating while reading up on it because the American-German Dawes Plan -- which I have read about for 50+ years...was key to the use of that particular DE. How many times did I read in my grade school textbooks about the Dawes Plan and 1924...never knowing that the 1924 Saint DE was the coin of the realm to facilitate that trade deal? Come to think of it....I sort of wonder why the European banks wanted bags of Double Eagles and other gold coins....as RWB has said, the bars were easier to move.....but why have unwieldly DEs when it was so much easier to settle a trade with digital credits and debits, right ? If the Central Bank of your country is accepting gold and wants bonds that you have in your capital account....wouldn't a credit be easier to move around ?

Different and strict. Like the substitute teacher that you thought would be a pushover and the first things out of her mouth were "Take out your pen or pencil, this is a suprise quiz."

What the hell is it with 20 posts only saying "t" ????

You would think so many different actors are involved that SOMEONE...at SOME TIME....would talk. But clearly not the case, as the Fairmont is almost certainly multiple hoards or acculations, unlike maybe the 1908 No Motto Wells hoard which could be all from one source or person. I guess among the sellers of these hoards all they care about is getting paid.

If CAC tapped on the brakes of gradeflation......CACG is slamming on the brakes.

Appears "gold segregation" with gold coins and Saints/Libertys is not as big a problem, I take it ? Gold and copper must mix pretty well ?

Oh no doubt...clearly several hoards or collections....jeez, it's 9 tons of gold !!! Makes sense for multiple disparate hoards to be grouped together and sold as one....they can "piggy-back" on each other. I think you or someone said that was often the case with famous auctions like the Adolphe Menjou 1950 and other auctions....also with the Thaine B. Price auction where some Steve Duckor coins were sold. Someone once posted that a Buddy Epsen ("Beverly Hillbillies") auction, even though he was a legit collector, had mostly coins that were NOT his. I guess in moderation it's not being dishonest...but impossible to determine how much of a collection actually belongs to the person whose name is attached to it, huh ?

Bowers book mentions that the "ordinary steam press" and steel die was unable to bring up Liberty's face fully in the initial test runs in 1849. Apparently they made a good one (maybe the one in the Smithsonian ?) using a "heavy hand press." Not sure if or where this might be covered in a book like FMTM...but was the steam press about to be replaced by something more powerful ? Did they temper and strengthen the regular steel dies to solve the problem ? Was it a combination of both ? I know the MCMVIII UHRs and HR's were struck on the special metal press which could impact up to 170 tons of pressure, not sure how powerful this steam press was 57 years earlier.

Silver or gold ? Silver is more affordable; the 2009 UHR Saint-Gaudens didn't sell out as I recall. Much steeper price for a 1-ounce gold coin means you can't have one every year.

The New Orleans Mint was notorious for "poorly struck" or weak-strike Morgans. Conversely, San Francisco seems to have had the best almost year-in and year-out. Then you have the entire "slider" thing whereby a less-bag marked AU coin with some "wear" on the high-points could get Mint State grading.

Well, it would depend on how much I had won. A few million would lead me to spending a few hundred thousand on coins. But winning $20 to $30 MM would mean alot more. The key is I presume it would be a lump-sum payment and also what I took home AFTER taxes. Right now, winning a $20 MM lottery payable over 20 years would mean a total payout upfront after taxes of about ~$8 MM. As for coins: I would add a bunch of top-notch Saints including an MCMVII High Relief MS-67 or higher ....a few other Saints, maybe even including that Norweb 1908-S if it came up for sale and was priced right.... a very nice Liberty Head DE Carson City....some gold coin commemoratives I like, some much larger than 1 ounce...some MS-67 and higher Morgans....and a few other coins that grab my fancy at FUN or other big shows. I'd also want some large denomination bills ....maybe as Gold Certificates. Again, how high would depend on how big the lump-sump was.

Part III just came out yesterday : https://raregoldcoins.com/blog/2024/2/5/fairmont-gold-pieces-part-iii-the-ungraded-fairmonts

Yes, agreed. You and Zad make some great points. I would think that one could create spreadsheets that automatically download the PCGS/NGC population data and keep running tabs and more importantly the monthly/quarterly changes that RR apparently tracked manually ? Had to be time-consuming, but reading the article a 2nd time I focused on how he looked for the CHANGES in the population data and then made adjustments to determine if the increase was Fairmont-related or not. Really facsinating.

Maybe he thought you were being aggressive...maybe he just overreacted because he had a similar negative experince trying to screw someone else a previous time. Always be civil...don't raise your voice...and if another dealer or a show promoter or even a policeman comes over and asks what is going on, just clearly state your objection if it comes to that. Like I said, unless it's clearly ILLEGAL, even if it is slimy business practices, all you can do is complain to the show promoter and/or take your business elsewhere.

If someone was doing something ILLEGAL then maybe you report them to the show producer. But I'm not sure it is worth it to go after someone who is just "slimy." There are bad actors in any group, BL. Just take your business elsewhere if the guy is that detestable.