GoldFinger1969

It's a coin to the layman but to us professionals we call it a pattern. I guess the main thing that distinction results in is that you do NOT have to have the 1907 UHR to have a complete set of Saint-Gaudens. You do need the MCMVII HR but not the 1907 UHR.

I'd be curious to see the price going back decades relative to silver. That said, I still think expecting it to sell for $25 is way too low. $50 would be cheap....$100 might be "fair value" or something like that. Again...the coin is AFFORDABLE which means alot. The average person can afford 1....and if you want 2 or 3 or 4 you can even stretch for that and it will be 1/3rd what a Saint would cost you in average grade.

But demand is pretty high for coins like that....from collectors and folks who can afford a quasi-bullion coin. Who knows how many people own it such that if silver goes to $50 or $100 an ounce....this coin doubles or triples, even if it lags bullion in appreciation percentage. Also...lots of people can afford a $200 coin. It's a lot different than what I see for Saints with plenty of supply and folks have to fork over $2,500 or $3,000. I have an 1879-S in MS-67 (CAC, I think, too)....I think I paid about $700 for it. Some of these Morgans, you really have to go up in grade to have a low pop number and jack up the price to where you see demand destruction. $200 doesn't do it. $700 does.

I didn't see it in the photos, but I'll take another look closer, PF.

WC, great points. I don't collect recent or post-WW II U.S. coinage or pre-WW II small-coinage....but my understanding from reading ATS was that prices for stuff like Franklins, GW Quarters, etc.....got slammed after 2012. Huge declines that you didn't see in the bullion or quasi-bullion pre-1933 gold or silver stuff.

Or never submitted for CAC and it would get a bean. Of course....I always wonder with 1 bidder if it isn't a friend or dummy account who backs out.

I would use total net worth -- excluding debt (a house worth $500,000 isn't worth that in the calculation if there's a $400,000 mortgage on it) -- including INCOME streams. Also, to be fair, a house can NOT be monetized into an income stream because you are living there. If you sold it tomorrow you'd need to buy a new one or pay rent. Now, if you own a $1 MM home free-and-clear....and you are gonna downsize to a 1-BR condo that costs $400,000....then I would say that $600,000 could be added to your (liquid) net worth. Pensions -- even Social Security -- could be added as I said before. Well said. WC, I don't see a bubble in today's coin prices. Maybe longer-term demographic headwinds impact the prices for those most inflated but even these came down sharply from 2012-20. Remember the recent rise in the PCGS 3000 index is in the context of a huge drop from 1989. Sort of like the Japanese stock market.

Hopefully...and most of the time I think it is true....the holder label and the coin match up. Not always.....but how often did the dealer scribbles in the white areas of the 2x2 match up with the coin pre-1986, right ?

The 1907 UHR is considered a coin ?

Right, but the 1907 UHR is a pattern even though they made a small number which were distributed and it was pretty much the final version before becoming the MCMVII High Relief. These are also patterns but usually only 1 copy and no distribution and they didn't become the model for an actual released coin like the MCMVII HR). They're closer to experimental models or die experimentations in a way.

And of course, some lone bidder makes ME look moronic by bidding $6K and winning the coin for a total of $6,750. https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1144362/1923-D-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-NGC-MS-66-OH It's a NICE coin, I just think the price is too high.

Do you mean online or in-person somewhere ?

I must have missed that: so they gave Eliasburg credit for the 1933 Saint. But how did they score it not knowing the grade ? Maybe default to an MS-65 where most of the survivors tended to be ? I have to look at those patterns, but the fact that no "coins" were distrubuted as with the 1907 Ultra High Relief makes these almost experimental patterns. Do we even have the population numbers for these "patterns" ? I'm sure it's in RWB's book but these patterns are so rare and since not widely struck/distributed you almost consider them like a 1st Draft or something on the way to the final Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle product.

Nice review, hope you enjoyed the show, JT. But regardless of grading quirks today, I believe we are light-years better than the days of UNC, BU, Choice BU, Gem BU, etc.

Good points, Mark. I tried to negotiate with someone who had a nice 5 ounce silver commemorative that I wanted. Prices were about $250-$350 going back over a year or so. This guy wanted $600 for his coin. I kept raising my offer close to $375 but he never countered. Coin was still there months later.

I guess many of them -- if slabbed when prices were higher -- would have holders from 1989-1994, right ?

I have a link somewhere I'll look for, but if you go by total net worth (including primary residence equity) I'm going to say it's close to 20 MM households. Liquid financial assets, probably 10 MM. I could be off, I'll circle back......

Yeah, the houses on Long Island and the NY/NJ suburbs were closer to 1,200 - 2,000 square feet. I think the house I grew up in was 1,800 (49' High Ranch). Yeah, I don't know if millionaire would mean EARNS $1 MM...or has a net worth of $1 MM (including homes)...or a liquid financial net worth or easily-liquidated assets that comfortably exceeds $1 MM even if given a haircut. You could also include PENSIONS which are worth millions for many public sector employees (and some private sector) if they are young enough and get a certain annuity for life. I estimate the value of many teacher, firemen, and police pensions in New York State as worth about $1.5 MM - $2.5 MM. Some as high as $5 MM !!

Yup....I get asking a high percentage over market for a low-priced item. I see silver commemoratives that should be $200 and someone asks for $350 and hopes someone needs it right now for a birthday, Christmas, etc. But there's a huge difference in paying a few hundred bucks (or less) over market and paying THOUSANDS over market....for an item that is plentiful and always available. That also makes sense.

Look at this 1923-D Saint-Gaudens in what looks like an early or mid-1990's holder. https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1144362/1923-D-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-NGC-MS-66-OH 1923-D's in MS-66 sell for about $4,500 to $5,000 depending on the quality (assuming no CAC). Why would someone ask for $1,000 - $1,500 over market (esp. a starting bid) ? I mean, I know you can always get lucky but anybody buying a Saint-Gaudens coin generally and for this much money specifically is not likely to be uninformed. This coin has been out there a few weeks at least, maybe months. I've seen others getting no bids that were listed for OVER a year. Why do it ?

I don't recall seeing that thread but I would have been alongside you. Also, others who agreed with you might have thought that you said it better than they could and thus didn't post. If a thread disappears due to inactivity, I wouldn't assume others agreed or disagreed with the posts or others. They may have missed it like I did or they may have thought they couldn't improve on anything you said/typed.

I owned RDS before....the European/British oils are too henpecked by the Greens overseas. Both RDS and BP cut their dividends in 2020....Exxon and Chevron did not. Royal Dutch had last cut the divvy almost 80 years ago during WW II during The Blitz. They threw that all away.

Wow....$60,000 for any home in 1962 -- let alone Atlanta area or Georgia -- was damn pricey. Homes in the NY area when my parents and relatives bought in the LATE 1960's were only $30,000 or so.

Do you attend any of the surburban NYC-area shows: Westchester.....Mt. Kisco....Parsippany ? There's also some on Long Island but I've never gone.

Local, regional, and the national coin shows. Where do you live ?